Rent late

Grumpypants

As you are dealing with a big company it is likely an automatic process to issue the letter if you are even 1 day late. This is because it is such a long drawn out process to evict someone they want to get the ball rolling.

Get the rent up to date. No judge will process an eviction if your rent is up to date.

Also check the HAP contract to see if it mentions the rent being paid in arrears. If it does and they agreed to it then it has you covered.

I don't have a hap tenant but i do have a long term lease with the council and the contract calls out when the rent is paid. The day changes each month but i agreed to that so couldnt evict if it was late.

Boater123

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yes, buy time in parallel with fixing up the rent. If you feel that would be utterly unnecessary I'll stand corrected.

Certainly we both agree that the ultimate path to assuaging the OP's worries here is getting their rent payment schedule up to date.

You're offering advice to open a frivolous case, one which has no chance of succeeding. No wonder the RTB is not fit for purpose, if it has to deal with this on a regular basis.

If it were me and a tenant did this, it would burn every last bridge between us.

I do agree that the OP should sort out their rent ASAP, beg, borrow or steal, it's their best chance of staying in their home.

The_Conductor

Boater123 wrote: »

You're offering advice to open a frivolous case, one which has no chance of succeeding. No wonder the RTB is not fit for purpose, if it has to deal with this on a regular basis.

If it were me and a tenant did this, it would burn every last bridge between us.

I do agree that the OP should sort out their rent ASAP, beg, borrow or steal, it's their best chance of staying in their home.

Of course the OP would only do this- if they had no intention of trying to stay in the property- it would simply be a stalling tactic to allow them normalise their financial situation- so they'd have a clean reference for their next landlord?

mrslancaster

bajer101 wrote: »

I posted here a while ago posing the question could I be evicted if my rent was a couple of weeks late. I can now confirm, that yes you can. Was dealing with HAP and eventually got approved after scraping together last month's rent. HAP pay in arrears which landlord won't accept. Got 14 days notice a couple of weeks ago when rent was only a few days late, and got eviction notice today even though they know that HAP are paying the full thing next Wednesday. Some people really are cùnts. I'm a single parent with a ten year old child.

sorry to hear about your situation OP. could the cwo or threshold not help when you got the 14 day notice a couple of weeks ago? it seems very harsh that there was no help available to sort out the short time lag and avoid this situation.

did the late hap payment happen before? if you got sorted after your original post back in january its awful that its happened again, nobody needs that stress in their life. as another poster pointed out, it would seem easier for the company to keep the current tenant rather than have all the extra costs of finding new ones. good luck finding a new place

The_Conductor

mrslancaster wrote: »

it would seem easier for the company to keep the current tenant rather than have all the extra costs of finding new ones. good luck finding a new place

Not necessarily.
Any of the larger companies will have waiting lists of prospective tenants for any units than become vacant- they may not even have to advertise the unit. The only costs are cleaning/general repairs- and registering the new tenancy with the RTB.

A small scale landlord with 1-2 properties- would have far higher costs associated with getting a new tenant- than would a company with a plethora of units- who are in the market on an ongoing basis.

davindub

bajer101 wrote: »

I posted here a while ago posing the question could I be evicted if my rent was a couple of weeks late. I can now confirm, that yes you can. Was dealing with HAP and eventually got approved after scraping together last month's rent. HAP pay in arrears which landlord won't accept. Got 14 days notice a couple of weeks ago when rent was only a few days late, and got eviction notice today even though they know that HAP are paying the full thing next Wednesday. Some people really are cùnts. I'm a single parent with a ten year old child.

Missed this bit.....

Just to confirm, you are now on HAP and the rent in question is covered by HAP?

As far as I am aware, you are responsible for the rent up until the local authority receives the completed form. You might check with the local authority what period is covered.

If the period is covered by HAP, you have two actions
1. Speak to the landlord on your behalf (well probably debt collector working in the company). The terms of HAP are payment on a certain date, the landlord has to accept this date or he is indirectly discriminating against HAP tenants. I would get Threshold to help you with this but you send one of these http://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Publications_Forms/Form-ES-1-Equal-Status-Complaint-Notification1.pdf to the landlord and if they haven't responded within a month, you are free to take a case. The consistent issuing of rent arrears notices and obviously the attempted eviction, either could be considered a discriminatory action.

2. Appeal the eviction notice, to the RTB, it's not valid as the rent is now due to be paid under the terms of HAP.

Good luck, I can't believe a professional company is behaving like this, I would be more inclined to think it is someone overzealous trying to achieve targets for a bonus, but you never know.

bajer101

Hi, OP here. Apologies for not replying sooner. I have just got a chance to read through the replies and catch up. Thanks to everyone who commented. Apologies for the snarky tone in some of my posts. But I would hope you understand. Rather than reply to individual posts, I'll try and answer and comment here.

Firstly, to the person who asked where the child's father is and why can't he help with the rent - I am the child's father. It's just me and my daughter. I'm sorry, but I don't fall under the handy narrative of a single mother who shouldn't be having children she can't afford and who wants the taxpayer to pay for everything. I've worked for 30 of the 32 years and for the last few years would have paid around €20k pa in income tax. I've always paid my way myself and have always paid rent on time.

Last year,, I had some health issues and a whole lot of other problems that meant I had to take an extended period of time off work. Used up my savings on rent and bills and when that ran out I applied to the CWO for rent supplement. That was when I posted first, nine months ago because I received a 14 day notice while I was waiting for the CWO to process my application.

I got the money together and avoided the eviction notice and then the CWO payment kicked in, so I was ok. Then the situation improved in April, and I was in a position to do some contract work for a few months. Signed off the lone parents and Rent supplement and back to work. Unfortunately, health problems and other family health issues hit again and I was unable to work.

Rent was completely up to date at this point. I had been working, so no probs. I tried to get rent supplement and was told it was all switched to HAP and I had to apply there. That was a nightmare. To qualify, I had to go on the housing list first. That's a nightmare if you happen to have been a previous hard worker who owned a property. I was asked to produce documentation relating to the previous property which wasn't physically available, and ended up having to swear an affidavit in a solicitor's office. This is all taking time during a period of ill health.

Got that done and got the forms completed and into HAP. I'm waiting and still paying my rent on time from the last salary. I chase up HAP and am told that they only have 5 staff in DCC and there is a huge backlog. I get a 14 day notice in August and use the last of my savings to pay August's rent.

(This is taking longer than I thought. I finish later.)

bajer101

DCC faff about a bit more and eventually I get approved. They will pay the landlord directly on the last Wednesday of the month (minus my rent contribution which will come out of my lone parent's payment and another €100 per month I pay myself as the rent is above the limits. But this will only be paid by the council in arrears. So, I got the eviction notice.

Someone (a mod, I believe) posted that DCC have addressed the issue of HAP's shortcomings by paying the deposit and two months rent in advance. This is incorrect. That is an initiative that is only available to homeless people. Standard HAP pays the rent in arrears.

An interesting point that someone else raised is that the landlord will have to accept the HAP conditions, as otherwise they are in breach of equality legislation. The landlords may disagree, but this is a slam dunk for me and the reason why I am not terrified.

Someone asked was the reason why I was not a landlord anymore was because I was a bit casual about not demanding rent. I'm a single father with a ten year old daughter. Use your imagination and work out how I may not have been in the best position to be a successful landlord.

I have absolutely no problem with landlords earning a living and I know the nonsense they have to deal with. But the whole point of this post, which hasn't changed and which hasn't been properly addressed since I first asked the question nine months ago, is that a tenant can be issued with a 14 day notice when the rent is one day late, and they can then issue a 28 day eviction notice which is legally binding. I received a legally binding eviction notice that will put me and my daughter on the street in 29 days time. I've explained my situation as best I can - do you think this is fair? Step out of your landlord shoes for a minute and answer honestly please.

Mrs Shuttleworth

bajer101 wrote: »

DCC faff about a bit more and eventually I get approved. They will pay the landlord directly on the last Wednesday of the month (minus my rent contribution which will come out of my lone parent's payment and another €100 per month I pay myself as the rent is above the limits. But this will only be paid by the council in arrears. So, I got the eviction notice.

Someone (a mod, I believe) posted that DCC have addressed the issue of HAP's shortcomings by paying the deposit and two months rent in advance. This is incorrect. That is an initiative that is only available to homeless people. Standard HAP pays the rent in arrears.

An interesting point that someone else raised is that the landlord will have to accept the HAP conditions, as otherwise they are in breach of equality legislation. The landlords may disagree, but this is a slam dunk for me and the reason why I am not terrified.

Someone asked was the reason why I was not a landlord anymore was because I was a bit casual about not demanding rent. I'm a single father with a ten year old daughter. Use your imagination and work out how I may not have been in the best position to be a successful landlord.

I have absolutely no problem with landlords earning a living and I know the nonsense they have to deal with. But the whole point of this post, which hasn't changed and which hasn't been properly addressed since I first asked the question nine months ago, is that a tenant can be issued with a 14 day notice when the rent is one day late, and they can then issue a 28 day eviction notice which is legally binding. I received a legally binding eviction notice that will put me and my daughter on the street in 29 days time. I've explained my situation as best I can - do you think this is fair? Step out of your landlord shoes for a minute and answer honestly please.

Forgive me that in spite of your two lengthy posts I'm still a bit confused. Your rent was one day late, they issued the notice then you paid up in full what would have been due the day before the notice - am I correct? Then they issued the 28 day notice.

It's not clear from your posts when you made that August payment. I would hazard a guess you made it after receiving the 28 day notice which leaves you a month now in arrears.

This is salvageable. Get onto the HAP office asap. Fairness doesn't come into it. I won't bore you with my story but it's just as awful as yours.

Re the landlord having to accept HAP there is a mismatch between the method HAP is paid and the provisions of the RTA 2004 re arrears and notice periods. Landlords dislike HAP for this reason and also the possibility of being stung with bills to carry out unnecessary works to perfectly habitable properties to meet the HAP criteria.

It seems to me that you need to find one months rent to plug the gap between what you owe and what you expect the landlord to get from HAP next Wednesday bringing you up to date going forward.

Find it and that should be the end of the matter.

circular flexing

So just to get this straight, your rent was paid for August and is now due for September, but the landlord won't accept this?

If you cleared the August arrears before the 14 day notice expired then I would think another rent arrears notice would need to be issued followed by a 28 day eviction notice. Has this happened?

I would say that the landlord has to sign the HAP form and that they have to accept the conditions of HAP, one of which is that rent is paid on the last Wednesday of the month for that calendar month. It would be an interesting test of the RTB to see if signing this agreement supersedes what's in a lease.

bajer101

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Forgive me that in spite of your two lengthy posts I'm still a bit confused. Your rent was one day late, they issued the notice then you paid up in full what would have been due the day before the notice - am I correct? Then they issued the 28 day notice.

It's not clear from your posts when you made that August payment. I would hazard a guess you made it after receiving the 28 day notice which leaves you a month now in arrears

The rent is due on the first of the month. August's rent was paid mid August from funds I gathered. I did not receive a 28 day eviction notice in August.

The rent that was due on Sept 1st has not been paid yet. I received first a 14 day day notice to pay, and then a 28 day eviction notice. HAP will pay September's rent next Wednesday (albeit in arrears). The payment which goes direct to the landlord will also include a payment for most of August (which I already paid).

bajer101

circular flexing wrote: »

So just to get this straight, your rent was paid for August and is now due for September, but the landlord won't accept this?

If you cleared the August arrears before the 14 day notice expired then I would think another rent arrears notice would need to be issued followed by a 28 day eviction notice. Has this happened?

I would say that the landlord has to sign the HAP form and that they have to accept the conditions of HAP, one of which is that rent is paid on the last Wednesday of the month for that calendar month. It would be an interesting test of the RTB to see if signing this agreement supersedes what's in a lease.

Yes. I think it would be an interesting test of HAP that neither side will want to touch. I suspect the landlord knows exactly what they are doing and are angling for HAP to pay them up front instead of arrears. I really hope so.

ted1

bajer101 wrote: »

The landlord was well aware of the situation as I kept them apprised at all times. They knew exactly what they were doing. I resolved the situation myself by borrowing the money. I'll be back in work in a couple of months and it won't be an issue after that. I just couldn't believe that this would be legal, but apparently it is. I'll probably move elsewhere when things settle down as I am not comfortable doing business who would make a child with special needs homeless like this.

It’s not the landlords responsibility to provide social housing. The landlord is running a business, a restaurant wouldn’t let you eat for free, Tesco wouldn’t let you walk out with a full trolley.

If you need social housing go to the council

Mrs Shuttleworth

bajer101 wrote: »

The rent is due on the first of the month. August's rent was paid mid August from funds I gathered. I did not receive a 28 day eviction notice in August.

The rent that was due on Sept 1st has not been paid yet. I received first a 14 day day notice to pay, and then a 28 day eviction notice. HAP will pay September's rent next Wednesday (albeit in arrears). The payment which goes direct to the landlord will also include a payment for most of August (which I already paid).

Not to be smart but at last we have some clarity on what your exact gripe with the landlord was.

If I were you I would write a polite letter to the landlord setting out what you've just described and send it registered Monday. Keep all the emotion and family issues etc out of it just stick to the financial facts. Ask him to confirm by Friday that the HAP payment on the double was in fact received by him on Wednesday.

If he does pursue the matter after that you will have been seen by an adjudicator to have rectified a position that largely arose from LA bungling.

Good luck to you.

The_Conductor

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Not to be smart but at last we have some clarity on what your exact gripe with the landlord was.

If I were you I would write a polite letter to the landlord setting out what you've just described and send it registered Monday. Keep all the emotion and family issues etc out of it just stick to the financial facts. Ask him to confirm by Friday that the HAP payment on the double was in fact received by him on Wednesday.

If he does pursue the matter after that you will have been seen by an adjudicator to have rectified a position that largely arose from LA bungling.

Good luck to you.

Mrs Shuttleworth is giving you very good advice here.
I'd also suggest a letter to the local authority and your local representatives- outlining the financial facts of the case (try to keep family circumstances and emotion to a minimum).

HAP tenants cannot be discriminated against. They are supposed to be treated by landlords in a manner identical to any other tenant. Unfortunately- you are not looking for equivalent treatment when you're paying rent in arrears.

Most HAP tenants (posting in this forum)- normally pay the first month upfront themselves- and then the local authority rent kicks in thereafter.

The landlord would have treated any tenant in an identical manner to how they treated you- the issue you have is with the scheme itself- and the manner in which the local authority are implementing it- not the landlord themselves.

I'm sorry for the mess you've ended up in- you do genuinely try to be doing your utmost to make the most of the situation you're in- however, circumstances are working against you.

I wasn't aware that the DCC scheme for deposit and 2 months rent in advance- only related to housing homeless tenants- and to be brutally honest- I'd chase this one- as its not stated in this manner on the posters on their website.

April 73

So if HAP pay Sept's rent & August's backdated rent (which you paid yourself) next Weds won't that get you up straight for October & the rent will be with the LL for Oct in advance?
I'd write the letter suggested as well. I can't see how you would be evicted in those circumstances.

To be honest I think what the OP has posted has shown the flaws in the system which is supposed to provide a safety net in tough times for people just like him. He would have been better off not trying to get back to work - and that kind of a system which encourages dependency because the bureaucracy involved in support mechanisms is not fit for purpose, is just wrong.

ted1

April 73 wrote: »

So if HAP pay Sept's rent & August's backdated rent (which you paid yourself) next Weds won't that get you up straight for October & the rent will be with the LL for Oct in advance?
I'd write the letter suggested as well. I can't see how you would be evicted in those circumstances.

To be honest I think what the OP has posted has shown the flaws in the system which is supposed to provide a safety net in tough times for people just like him. He would have been better off not trying to get back to work - and that kind of a system which encourages dependency because the bureaucracy involved in support mechanisms is not fit for purpose, is just wrong.

She’ll owe October’s rent on Sunday week.

OP when will that be paid ?

njs030

Op you said they are paying all of September and some of August? Is that 6 weeks, 7 weeks? How much exactly are they paying for August?
If you can go to the cwo or get a loan from somewhere for the extra weeks, you could pay for October in advance in full and be back on track with Octobers hap payment being an advance payment for November.

April 73

ted1 wrote: »

She’ll owe October’s rent on Sunday week.

OP when will that be paid ?

She is a he. He said already that HAP will pay next Weds for Sept & for most of August which he already paid out of his savings. Therefore it looks to me like on the 1st of Oct he will owe a month's rent but the LL is holding extra from August.

OP can you top up that amount to reach the full month's rent. Then you will be up straight again?

GGTrek

I am a father and I feel for the OP. He is probably paying big money in rent since the "institutional" landlords only charge top rent. Now my very strong suggestion is to negotiate with the representative of the institutional landlord ASAP and avoid RTB at all costs for his particular case. Check the RTB adjudications: the REITs have the legal muscle to win almost all their cases and they do not care how long it is going to take, especially if the OP thinks about going back to work they might try to enforce the determination order of any rent arrears against him. However I have seen that they are amenable to avoid eviction if back rent is paid in full and tenant keeps paying on time (probably they have strict internal policies like every other big corporation does).

The other posters in this thread saying that the RTB adjudicator when he/she sees that the rent has been fully paid will settle the question, clearly have very little experience of adjudications. There was a case like the OP one recently at the RTB tribunal, even though the tenant had repaid almost all the back rent (was missing a couple of weeks at the time of the hearing) he lost both the adjudication and the appeal! The statute is very clear, once you have received a valid 28 days termination notice there is no going back (even if the tenant pays back the late rent) unless the other party agrees.

Adjudicators have to apply the law, Section 67:
"67.—(1) This section applies where the tenancy is being terminated by the landlord by reason of the failure of the tenant to comply with any of the obligations of the tenancy.
(2) Where this section applies the period of notice to be given by the notice of termination is— ....
(b) 28 days, if the tenancy is being terminated—
(ii) for failure to pay an amount of rent due and the condition specified in subsection (3) is satisfied,
(3) The condition mentioned in subsection (2)(b)(ii) is that the tenant has been notified in writing by the landlord that an amount of rent due has not been paid and 14 days elapse from the receipt of that notice without the amount concerned having been paid to the landlord."

There is nothing else in the act saying that the tenant can pay the rent during the 28 days notice to invalidate the termination notice, if the landlord followed Section 67 procedure and issued a 28 days (minimum) termination notice, even paying the rent will not cancel the termination notice validity. That is why I am suggesting negotiating with the landlord. Good luck

bajer101

OP here. Thanks again for all the replies and for taking the time out to post what has largely been very helpful advice.

The payment that will be paid to the LL on Wednesday will be about €650 short of two month's rent. I could find that and then effectively make up the HAP shortfall myself. I'm due tax back from last year soon, so I can do that. That has been the plan.

The vibes I'm getting from the LL is that they don't want to evict me and that they are going through procedure. I think I will be ok.

Stheno

bajer101 wrote: »

OP here. Thanks again for all the replies and for taking the time out to post what has largely been very helpful advice.

The payment that will be paid to the LL on Wednesday will be about €650 short of two month's rent. I could find that and then effectively make up the HAP shortfall myself. I'm due tax back from last year soon, so I can do that. That has been the plan.

The vibes I'm getting from the LL is that they don't want to evict me and that they are going through procedure. I think I will be ok.

Best wishes to you, I hope it works out.

Is the two months going to carry you through October so that when November comes that between the HAP and your payments you'll be in the clear?

bajer101

Stheno wrote: »

Best wishes to you, I hope it works out.

Is the two months going to carry you through October so that when November comes that between the HAP and your payments you'll be in the clear?

Thanks for the well wishes, but your question melted my head :-) The easiest way to explain it is that HAP pay the landlord the rent at the end of the month, whereas all leases will state that the rent has to be paid at the start of the month.

Bit of an update from today. Rang the HAP (regular section) and eventually got through. Got told that since I have received an eviction notice I should present myself to the homeless section or perhaps call Focus. I informed the nice lady that during my final meeting with her colleague I was assured that I could not be evicted. She said she would get the colleague to call me back.

Rang the RTB. The outcome of which was, "would you like to register a dispute sir?". No advice.

Got through to Homeless HAP after multiple incorrect phone numbers. Told to present myself there with the eviction notice and the details of any dependants. I told them that I already had perfectly suitable accomodation, the landlord just needs paying in advance.

Original HAP officer called me back. Lovely guy. I told him that the landlord informed me that they had HAP tenants whose rent is paid at the start of the month. He said this was a lie as no landlord on the general HAP scheme gets paid in advance. He looked up the landlord and said he had one tenant on the Homeless HAP scheme, and that was the only tenant who got paid in advance.

The most important piece of information I received today was from the HAP officer who told me that the LL had signed up to the agreement that states that the rent is paid in arrears. As far as he was concerned that's it, end of. He told me to contact the LL on Wednesday when the rent has been transferred and to ask if the eviction notice has been rescinded. If it hasn't, I am to open a case with the RTP.

Stheno

bajer101 wrote: »

Thanks for the well wishes, but your question melted my head :-) The easiest way to explain it is that HAP pay the landlord the rent at the end of the month, whereas all leases will state that the rent has to be paid at the start of the month.

Bit of an update from today. Rang the HAP (regular section) and eventually got through. Got told that since I have received an eviction notice I should present myself to the homeless section or perhaps call Focus. I informed the nice lady that during my final meeting with her colleague I was assured that I could not be evicted. She said she would get the colleague to call me back.

Rang the RTB. The outcome of which was, "would you like to register a dispute sir?". No advice.

Got through to Homeless HAP after multiple incorrect phone numbers. Told to present myself there with the eviction notice and the details of any dependants. I told them that I already had perfectly suitable accomodation, the landlord just needs paying in advance.

Original HAP officer called me back. Lovely guy. I told him that the landlord informed me that they had HAP tenants whose rent is paid at the start of the month. He said this was a lie as no landlord on the general HAP scheme gets paid in advance. He looked up the landlord and said he had one tenant on the Homeless HAP scheme, and that was the only tenant who got paid in advance.

The most important piece of information I received today was from the HAP officer who told me that the LL had signed up to the agreement that states that the rent is paid in arrears. As far as he was concerned that's it, end of. He told me to contact the LL on Wednesday when the rent has been transferred and to ask if the eviction notice has been rescinded. If it hasn't, I am to open a case with the RTP.

What does your lease with the landlord say though? Is it different from the landlords agreement with HAP?

bajer101

Stheno wrote: »

What does your lease with the landlord say though? Is it different from the landlords agreement with HAP?

The lease states that the rent is to be paid on the first of the month. The HAP agreement states that they will pay the rent in arrears on the last Wednesday of the month. The landlord signed that agreement after the lease, so that supercedes it. It's an interesting legal point. I'm just not happy to be caught up in the middle of it.

bajer101

Landlords here should be interested in this case. It will possibly test the legalities of HAP discrimination. The issue is that LLs have to sign the agreement, otherwise they can be found guilty of discrimination. But by signing the agreement they are conceding obvious terms of the original lease.

Stheno

bajer101 wrote: »

The lease states that the rent is to be paid on the first of the month. The HAP agreement states that they will pay the rent in arrears on the last Wednesday of the month. The landlord signed that agreement after the lease, so that supercedes it. It's an interesting legal point. I'm just not happy to be caught up in the middle of it.

The lease is with you though and what you agreed to but have been unable to stick to.

That's the basis of the eviction notice, no? Sorry if I'm being overly black and white the landlord may have expected you to bridge the gap with your own funds initially?

davindub

bajer101 wrote: »

Landlords here should be interested in this case. It will possibly test the legalities of HAP discrimination. The issue is that LLs have to sign the agreement, otherwise they can be found guilty of discrimination. But by signing the agreement they are conceding obvious terms of the original lease.

OP not sure if you have seen this http://www.thejournal.ie/tenants-discrimination-housing-assistance-payment-3556497-Aug2017/

But the 1st step is to send in the notification I linked earlier.

py

All this BS is why several landlords I know simply won't touch a prospective tenant on HAP.

bajer101

Stheno wrote: »

The lease is with you though and what you agreed to but have been unable to stick to.

That's the basis of the eviction notice, no? Sorry if I'm being overly black and white the landlord may have expected you to bridge the gap with your own funds initially?

I'm not disagreeing with you as such, but the lease that was signed would be superceeded by the LL signing the HAP agreement. The eviction notice is valid as the LL hasn't received the payment as yet, but once the payment is received the new HAP contract kicks in and the eviction notice should be rescinded. No?