Rent late

Graham · 26-09-2017 2:10pm

davindub wrote: »

Persistently late with rent is not grounds for termination. Only being in arrears is.

Persistently late may equate with being permanently in arrears.

26-09-2017 2:23pm

davindub wrote: »

There is no outstanding rent with the exception of September according to the OP. September is covered under the HAP agreement which is paid in arrears.

That's not how it works, the op owes rent simple as that, he needs to make up the gap between the start of September and when the hap payment starts.

As far as the LL is concerned the hap is the payment for October and the op needs to pay Septembers rent.

davindub wrote: »

Persistently late with rent is not grounds for termination. Only being in arrears is.

The op has already received a valid termination notice, make no mistake he can be evicted even if he is fully up to date on rent never mind if he continues to game the system by being in permanent arrears.

The LL is being messed around here and yet some people are happy to defend the ops actions, why am I not surprised.

davindub · 26-09-2017 2:24pm

Graham wrote: »

davindub wrote: »

Persistently late with rent is not grounds for termination. Only being in arrears is.

Persistently late may equate with being permanently in arrears.

As far as I remember there was a case where that argument was rejected.

the_syco · 26-09-2017 2:54pm

bajer101 wrote: »

The LL's eviction notice was valid, but will be rescinded once the September payment is made on Wednesday. There should be no more notices issued then as the HAP contract kicks in.

Grumpypants wrote: »

To be honest the landlord agreed to, and signed the contract to say rent will be paid by HAP and in arrears at the end if the month, so they are well aware of when and who would be paying it.

To issue an eviction notice after that is really poor form. As with most of these situtation a tiny bit of cop on would have prevented the whole thing.

If rent was due at the start of every month, and the rent is now being paid at the end of each month, I'd say the landlord is wondering if the OP is taking the piss, as rent will be always "late", as per the original lease.

Does the HAP = new lease, or payment for existing lease? If the latter, payment will always be late, and the LL will probably send notices every month. And if/when HAP doesn't come though, the LL will follow through on the eviction. I say if/when, as sh|t happens and RAS hasn't paid out (to everyone) sometimes, so I doubt HAP will be that much different.

davindub wrote: »

There is no outstanding rent with the exception of September according to the OP. September is covered under the HAP agreement which is paid in arrears.

Persistently late with rent is not grounds for termination. Only being in arrears is.

If HAP covers 100% of the rent, sure. If it doesn't, could the LL not argue that rent has not been paid in full, and thus gets an eviction?

davo10 · 26-09-2017 3:30pm

davindub wrote: »

There is no outstanding rent with the exception of September according to the OP.

Have you read this thread? Go back to the start. Op was in arrears 9 months ago, and is still/again in arrears today. A valid termination notice has been issued because op has not paid rent in accordance with the terms of his lease. Again, because a LL agrees to accept HAP, as required by law, that does mean the op can dodge paying rent until the council cash starts to flow. The op has received a valid notice as rent is not up to date.

Graham · 26-09-2017 5:35pm

davindub wrote: »

As far as I remember there was a case where that argument was rejected.

The case I was thinking of, the landlord had his case rejected because he hadn't followed with the formal notifications each time the rent was overdue.

davindub · 26-09-2017 6:49pm

davo10 wrote: »

Have you read this thread? Go back to the start. Op was in arrears 9 months ago, and is still/again in arrears today. A valid termination notice has been issued because op has not paid rent in accordance with the terms of his lease. Again, because a LL agrees to accept HAP, as required by law, that does mean the op can dodge paying rent until the council cash starts to flow. The op has received a valid notice as rent is not up to date.

Sigh...google the concept of payment in arrears please.

The_Conductor · 26-09-2017 6:52pm

Guys- remain civil towards one another- or do not post in this forum.
Next person who snipes at another poster- will get an infraction, rather than warnings.

If you disagree with what another poster posts- refute the post, factually, without attacking the poster.

davindub · 26-09-2017 6:53pm

the_syco wrote: »

If rent was due at the start of every month, and the rent is now being paid at the end of each month, I'd say the landlord is wondering if the OP is taking the piss, as rent will be always "late", as per the original lease.

Does the HAP = new lease, or payment for existing lease? If the latter, payment will always be late, and the LL will probably send notices every month. And if/when HAP doesn't come though, the LL will follow through on the eviction. I say if/when, as sh|t happens and RAS hasn't paid out (to everyone) sometimes, so I doubt HAP will be that much different.

If HAP covers 100% of the rent, sure. If it doesn't, could the LL not argue that rent has not been paid in full, and thus gets an eviction?

If the rent is in arrears, yes he could. But not where the rent is not in arrears (note concept of payment in arrears is different to actually being in arrears).

Graham · 26-09-2017 6:57pm

davindub wrote: »

If the rent is in arrears, yes he could. But not where the rent is not in arrears (note concept of payment in arrears is different to actually being in arrears).

Am I missing something?

If the landlord hasn't agreed to payment in arrears then paying in arrears is actually the same as being in arrears.

njs030 · 26-09-2017 6:59pm

davindub wrote: »

If the rent is in arrears, yes he could. But not where the rent is not in arrears (note concept of payment in arrears is different to actually being in arrears).

Once a legal eviction notice has been served paying the rent doesn't stop it, only the landlord can do that. It just means that op won't owe Septembers rent.
Secondly even though the rent for September is being paid tomorrow Octobers rent becomes due on Sunday - it will be back in arrears within 4 days.

davindub · 26-09-2017 7:17pm

Graham wrote: »

Am I missing something?

If the landlord hasn't agreed to payment in arrears then paying in arrears is actually the same as being in arrears.

Yes the HAP payment terms are in arrears. The landlord has agreed to this (they are obliged to anyway).

davindub · 26-09-2017 7:23pm

Graham wrote: »

The case I was thinking of, the landlord had his case rejected because he hadn't followed with the formal notifications each time the rent was overdue.

it could be the same case, but I thought I remembered there was discussion how once the situation had been normalised within the timeframe in the act, it couldn't be terminated on this basis?

The_Conductor · 26-09-2017 7:30pm

davindub wrote: »

Yes the HAP payment terms are in arrears. The landlord has agreed to this (they are obliged to anyway).

Dublin city council, Fingal and Meath- have variants on the scheme- where payments are not in arrears- and in the case of DCC- they have a variant which is two months in advance along with 1 months deposit. The hyper generous DCC one- apparently is ringfenced for those who have presented as homeless within the last 6 months- however, it is there.

Department of Housing are trying to standardise terms- 1 month rent in advance, and the tenant pays a 1 month deposit themselves (or if incapable of doing so- are directed to apply for assistance to do so). Apparently, there is to be an announcement on it before Christmas.

DCC have at least 3 different HAP contracts (at the moment)- which is a damn sight better than the number of variants on the RAS scheme they still have.

There is no point in bluntly arguing that HAP is always in arrears- it was intended to be- however, facts on the ground have determined that it wasn't working- and at least 3 LAs have Department sanction to modify their contracts.

Stheno · 26-09-2017 8:48pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Dublin city council, Fingal and Meath- have variants on the scheme- where payments are not in arrears- and in the case of DCC- they have a variant which is two months in advance along with 1 months deposit. The hyper generous DCC one- apparently is ringfenced for those who have presented as homeless within the last 6 months- however, it is there.

Department of Housing are trying to standardise terms- 1 month rent in advance, and the tenant pays a 1 month deposit themselves (or if incapable of doing so- are directed to apply for assistance to do so). Apparently, there is to be an announcement on it before Christmas.

DCC have at least 3 different HAP contracts (at the moment)- which is a damn sight better than the number of variants on the RAS scheme they still have.

There is no point in bluntly arguing that HAP is always in arrears- it was intended to be- however, facts on the ground have determined that it wasn't working- and at least 3 LAs have Department sanction to modify their contracts.

The landlords HAP handbook clearly states that all rent due prior to hap coming "live" is the responsibiity of the tenant, so if there are still outstanding arrears that won't help the OP any.

the_syco · 26-09-2017 8:52pm

davindub wrote: »

Yes the HAP payment terms are in arrears. The landlord has agreed to this (they are obliged to anyway).

From looking at it, HAP is rent supplement. The OP will pay HAP, and HAP will pay the LL. If the OP doesn't pay HAP, the LL gets nothing.

Is HAP giving the full rent amount? Although the LL has accepted payment by HAP, if that payment is lower than the rent in the original lease, the OP will have to make up the shortfall.

26-09-2017 9:04pm

davindub wrote: »

Yes the HAP payment terms are in arrears. The landlord has agreed to this (they are obliged to anyway).

As below, confirms you are wrong so you can stop digging that hole.

Stheno wrote: »

The landlords HAP handbook clearly states that all rent due prior to hap coming "live" is the responsibiity of the tenant, so if there are still outstanding arrears that won't help the OP any.

bajer101 · 26-09-2017 9:34pm

Cash Young Yachtsman wrote: »

As below, confirms you are wrong so you can stop digging that hole.

OP here again. I'll try to catch up, but for starters I have to address this. There are no arrears as such. I paid August's rent myself. September's rent was due on the first of Sept. That rent will be paid tomorrow. (along with a payment for August, which I personally paid).

bajer101 · 26-09-2017 9:41pm

Wtf are these posts about me trying to game the system? I worked 30 of the last 32 years. I have paid, on average 2.5 times more income tax than the average taxpayer. Why shouldn't I claim HAP?

26-09-2017 9:43pm

bajer101 wrote: »

OP here again. I'll try to catch up, but for starters I have to address this. There are no arrears as such. I paid August's rent myself. September's rent was due on the first of Sept. That rent will be paid tomorrow. (along with a payment for August, which I personally paid).

You are in arrears as your rent is due at the start of the month. The only way to right this situation is for you to pay Septembers rent yourself and treat the hap payment as octobers rent in advance. You are then covered.

bajer101 wrote: »

Wtf are these posts about me trying to game the system? I worked 30 of the last 32 years. I have paid, on average 2.5 times more income tax than the average taxpayer. Why shouldn't I claim HAP?

Gaming the system is in reference to you trying to claim you are no longer bound by your lease and trying to get out of paying your rent for September on time and thus octobers will be late and novembers will be late. Basically constant rent arrears. Don't be surprised if the LL goes ahead with the eviction unless you can get up to date on rent.

davo10 · 26-09-2017 9:44pm

bajer101 wrote: »

OP here again. I'll try to catch up, but for starters I have to address this. There are no arrears as such. I paid August's rent myself. September's rent was due on the first of Sept. That rent will be paid tomorrow. (along with a payment for August, which I personally paid).

Did you pay August's rent on time, or was it late?

Grumpypants · 26-09-2017 9:55pm

Cash Young Yachtsman wrote: »

You are in arrears as your rent is due at the start of the month. The only way to right this situation is for you to pay Septembers rent yourself and treat the hap payment as octobers rent in advance. You are then covered.

Gaming the system is in reference to you trying to claim you are no longer bound by your lease and trying to get out of paying your rent for September on time and thus octobers will be late and novembers will be late. Basically constant rent arrears. Don't be surprised if the LL goes ahead with the eviction unless you can get up to date on rent.

If he does what you suggest then the landlord will get double rent for september. Once from the tenent and once from the council.

The hap payment in september is for september not october. The OP has no ability to use the Hap payment for anything other than september's rent.

The landlord is well aware that they will be getting paid at the end of the month. It was outlined in the contract they read, agreed to and signed.

Stheno · 26-09-2017 10:01pm

Grumpypants wrote: »

If he does what you suggest then the landlord will get double rent for september. Once from the tenent and once from the council.

The hap payment in september is for september not october. The OP has no ability to use the Hap payment for anything other than september's rent.

The landlord is well aware that they will be getting paid at the end of the month. It was outlined in the contract they read, agreed to and signed.

There is a gap between the 1st and 29th September.

If the ops rent is due 1st September an HAP only kicks in on the 29th, op should pay the rent and use the hap for October, and hopefully the new SEPA procedures mean it hits the account on 1st October

Then the HAP portion for November will be paid on Oct 29

Op is then in the clear with no arrears, unless there are any outstanding from August, which it appears there are.

Op are you paying your weekly contribution to the council?

Grumpypants · 26-09-2017 10:21pm

Stheno wrote: »

There is a gap between the 1st and 29th September.

If the ops rent is due 1st September an HAP only kicks in on the 29th, op should pay the rent and use the hap for October, and hopefully the new SEPA procedures mean it hits the account on 1st October

Then the HAP portion for November will be paid on Oct 29

Op is then in the clear with no arrears, unless there are any outstanding from August, which it appears there are.

Op are you paying your weekly contribution to the council?

There isnt a gap. Septembers rent is paid in September.

The council would have said to the landlord. We pay the rent for September on September the 26th.
The landlord would have agreed to a deal where Septembers rent was paid on the 26th of September.

I don't understand why so many people are having problems understanding this. It is a very common business agreement.

bajer101 · 26-09-2017 10:33pm

Stheno wrote: »

There is a gap between the 1st and 29th September.

If the ops rent is due 1st September an HAP only kicks in on the 29th, op should pay the rent and use the hap for October, and hopefully the new SEPA procedures mean it hits the account on 1st October

Then the HAP portion for November will be paid on Oct 29

Op is then in the clear with no arrears, unless there are any outstanding from August, which it appears there are.

Op are you paying your weekly contribution to the council?

There are no arrears. The LL signed a contract agreeing that the rent would be paid at the end of the month.

My contribution is automatically taken from my Job Seeker's Transition payment (Lone parents payment if the kids are older than 7). I also have to pay an extra €100 per month to the LL.

As of tomorrow, the LL will have been paid for Sept. He will also receive a payment for part of August, which I already paid. He will be ahead of the game, but the eviction notice is still valid. I could be out on the street with my rent contribution still being deducted from my welfare payment.

I should be able to get through this, but this system is fücked.

davindub · 26-09-2017 10:44pm

bajer101 wrote: »

There are no arrears. The LL signed a contract agreeing that the rent would be paid at the end of the month.

My contribution is automatically taken from my Job Seeker's Transition payment (Lone parents payment if the kids are older than 7). I also have to pay an extra €100 per month to the LL.

As of tomorrow, the LL will have been paid for Sept. He will also receive a payment for part of August, which I already paid. He will be ahead of the game, but the eviction notice is still valid. I could be out on the street with my rent contribution still being deducted from my welfare payment.

I should be able to get through this, but this system is fücked.

You will get through this. You just need to
1. appeal the notice
2. Appeal the overpayment of rent.
3. Take a case to the Workplace Relations Committee if the harassment continues.

Stheno · 26-09-2017 10:46pm

bajer101 wrote: »

There are no arrears. The LL signed a contract agreeing that the rent would be paid at the end of the month.

My contribution is automatically taken from my Job Seeker's Transition payment (Lone parents payment if the kids are older than 7). I also have to pay an extra €100 per month to the LL.

As of tomorrow, the LL will have been paid for Sept. He will also receive a payment for part of August, which I already paid. He will be ahead of the game, but the eviction notice is still valid. I could be out on the street with my rent contribution still being deducted from my welfare payment.

I should be able to get through this, but this system is fücked.

So as of tomorrow you pay your rent 26 days late as per the lease you signed?

Mrs Shuttleworth · 26-09-2017 10:46pm

bajer101 wrote: »

There are no arrears. The LL signed a contract agreeing that the rent would be paid at the end of the month.

My contribution is automatically taken from my Job Seeker's Transition payment (Lone parents payment if the kids are older than 7). I also have to pay an extra €100 per month to the LL.

As of tomorrow, the LL will have been paid for Sept. He will also receive a payment for part of August, which I already paid. He will be ahead of the game, but the eviction notice is still valid. I could be out on the street with my rent contribution still being deducted from my welfare payment.

I should be able to get through this, but this system is fücked.

He did not vary the lease. There is no agreement with you that the rent for each month be received in hindsight. He may well want to terminate your lease entirely on the basis that you are now a HAP recipient and the nonsensical payment system but be afraid of being sued.

On 1st October you fall into arrears again, as the full amount for October will not have been paid. By Halloween the full rent is paid again but it de facto "bounces" again on November 1st.

The landlord may well want you out so he can reset the payment schedule with another tenant who can keep to the payment schedule and cashflow for the landlord agreed in the lease.

Who could blame him?

davindub · 26-09-2017 10:48pm

Cash Young Yachtsman wrote: »

As below, confirms you are wrong so you can stop digging that hole.

And when is HAP live?

davo10 · 26-09-2017 11:03pm

davindub wrote: »

You will get through this. You just need to
1. appeal the notice
2. Appeal the overpayment of rent.
3. Take a case to the Workplace Relations Committee if the harassment continues.

WRC? The LL accepted HAP but the op's lease states rent is to be paid in advance. Payment a month in advance is the standard method of payment for all tenants, the LL is not discriminating against the op my requiring rent to be paid in this way.

The op received notice as he did not pay his rent on time and is now in arrears. As has been pointed out to you a number of times, clearing overdue rent does not mean a notice of termination will be rescinded. The LL wants to be paid in advance each month, that is not descrmination, it's every LLs right and it is in the ops tenancy agreement.

Rent late

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