wounded /injured deer

sniperman

hi folks,whats the law regarding above(afaik i can humanely dispatch it with what ever gun im out with at the time,correct me if im wrong)would i have to leave it there,or can i bring it home for lets say, dog food?....................reason for asking is while out yesterday with my 223,i seen a few deer at the edge of a wood,one seemed to be on 3 legs(front one was off the ground) and lagged behind a bit,ill be at that wood again in a few days,and may or may not come across that deer again,but if i do i need to know the situation,dont want to break any laws etc.and dont want to see any animal suffering either,i dont and never have shot deer,should i just leave it alone?should i have shot it there and then?what do ye think

RossiFan08

sniperman wrote: »

hi folks,whats the law regarding above(afaik i can humanely dispatch it with what ever gun im out with at the time,correct me if im wrong)would i have to leave it there,or can i bring it home for lets say, dog food?....................reason for asking is while out yesterday with my 223,i seen a few deer at the edge of a wood,one seemed to be on 3 legs(front one was off the ground) and lagged behind a bit,ill be at that wood again in a few days,and may or may not come across that deer again,but if i do i need to know the situation,dont want to break any laws etc.and dont want to see any animal suffering either,i dont and never have shot deer,should i just leave it alone?should i have shot it there and then?what do ye think

Regardless of the condition the deer is in I would leave it be if the only rifle you have is a 223. The 223 lacks the stopping power to humanely kill the animal and you could end up doing more damage than good.

Additional if the animal looked health (apart from the leg) and had good weight, it is more than likely still able to graze and could recover from the injury

FISMA.

A deer would have to be pretty bad off for me to put it down. Maybe showing signs of a disease or crippled to the point of immobility for example.

If the deer is mobile, let them off. They are incredibly tough and can adapt quite well. I have friends with trail cams that have captured the same three legged deer over seasons.

This late in the season she'll probably be in gestation too.

When it doubt, give it a pass.

Cass

Leave it be.

If it's wounded you call the NPWS and inform them. If you come across a deer that is essentially on deaths door then you can put it out of it's misery. However a deer with a limp or an injury that still lets it move/be mobile should be let go.

Vegeta

Also, for the sake of argument, say you did shoot it with the .223 and were bringing the deer from the field and meet NPWS or the Gardai. A quick check of your rifle and they'll have you, your rifle (which is not a deer legal calibre) and a deer. Can be very hard to prove a deer was carrying an injury when it's dead unless there are clear visual signs, which is not always the case 100% of the time.

While I don't think you'd be prosecuted, he-said she-said type case, I personally wouldn't feel comfortable in that scenario.

If the deer seems capable, let it off. If it is genuinely in bad condition or dying a slow death, get a friend with a deer legal calibre out and agree beforehand that the meat is for your dogs.

Grizzly 45

ONLY way I think you could legally excuse using a non deer caliber for humane dispatch would be you are up close and personal and the animal was in very acute distress.By that I mean its got itself hopelessly tangled up in a tree with carelessly disposed of rope,fence wire, etc wrapped up in its antlers or has entangled itself in a fence and is trashing about,or has a snare on it and you are unable to free it safely [Happens quite often here ..] Or it has been hit by a truck and is unable to rise again.[Of which, of course as a very smart bear you took some video or pictures with on your cam phone..;)]

Anything else and TBH you are asking for it.

Kat1170

If you do the HCAP, you will learn this ......

Q. What about injured deer found on the road or elsewhere?
Injured deer may be killed by any person, at any time, in or out of season, with or without a licence, using any legal means. It is not necessary to advise the National Parks & Wildlife Service, the Garda Siochana or anybody else, in advance. No further specific permission is required. This is a matter of policy as it relates to the humane treatment of injured animals and the prevention of further suffering.

Now, as others have said it will be up to you to prove that the deer was indeed wounded, and I would presume a .223 may not come under the using any legal means part.

garrettod

Kat1170 wrote: »

....Now, as others have said it will be up to you to prove that the deer was indeed wounded, and I would presume a .223 may not come under the using any legal means part.

Even though the sad irony is that you would be more likely to have the wrong calibre gun with you, if you were genuinely not out after deer in the first place and did stumble on an animal in distress.

Very difficult thing to prove unless the animal is visibly injured, regardless of how humane the circumstances ... which unfortuntely puts every shooter in a position where they may feel forced to leave the animal suffer for a longer period than necessary (while waiting for assistance to arrive), for fear of being done in the wrong.

dodderangler

It's a sticky question to ask. I've seen one before with a bad limp but deer are extremely tough as many lads here who hunt them will tell you.
Unless I seen a deer that had just been knocked down and was immobile but breathing or had his stomach hanging out from being caught in barbed wire then I'd intervene and put it down but other than that a limp isn't going to make me drop em. I know of 4 lads with proper deer calibres who could come and put it down if necessary so if you know of someone who has proper calibre then they'd be the ones to call.
A injured deer isn't worth losing your licence over if you somehow got caught even though your heart was in the right place.

sniperman

thanks lads for all the advice,one has to ask to learn,i may never see that deer again,but if i ever do come across a badly injured one,i think i know now what to do,anyway im thinking about getting into deer hunting next season,so i have alot to learn first,also im the wrong side of fifty,hope its not to late,thanks again all,sound

FISMA.

sniperman wrote: »

...,hope its not to late

Never too late lad...

Grizzly 45

On the German hunting test you are shown how to put down any deer using a hunting knife.Since you most likely wont be carrying a gun with you at all times and as a qualified hunter you are entitled to do this as you are trained to do so..Anything from a large Swiss army knife blade will do and it it is incredibly fast and painless. Locate the base of the skull and the first spinal vertebrae. Bend the head slightly forward to expose this and stab into the exposed gap between skull and vertebrae.Done right the knife blade will sever the spinal cords and brain,causing pretty much instant death.No blood all over the place like an ISIL throat cut,which will no doubt alarm the snow flakes and faint of heart should it be a traffic accident situation.:)
One to keep in mind if needed some day.

Shooter Cotter

Hi all this is my first post.. Hi sniperman it's never two late to start deer stalking. It's a lovely sport if it's done right.. All you can do is keep an eye out for them deer again and if you think that that deer is getting worse and is suffering take a video if possible for your own evidence and then size it up well and dispatch the deer if think it's right to do so and have complete comfort on doing it. Or contact your local gun dealer and he should no of someone who stalks deer to do it for you.. Cheers

FISMA.

Shooter Cotter wrote: »

Hi all this is my first post..

May your shots be as well placed as your first post!

Welcome aboard and hope to hear more from you in the future!

riffmongous

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

On the German hunting test you are shown how to put down any deer using a hunting knife.Since you most likely wont be carrying a gun with you at all times and as a qualified hunter you are entitled to do this as you are trained to do so..Anything from a large Swiss army knife blade will do and it it is incredibly fast and painless. Locate the base of the skull and the first spinal vertebrae. Bend the head slightly forward to expose this and stab into the exposed gap between skull and vertebrae.Done right the knife blade will sever the spinal cords and brain,causing pretty much instant death.No blood all over the place like an ISIL throat cut,which will no doubt alarm the snow flakes and faint of heart should it be a traffic accident situation.:)
One to keep in mind if needed some day.

This method is actually not taught or encouraged anymore in Germany, reason given it takes a lot of practice and experience to do correctly and is not in accordance with animal welfare (Tierschutzgerecht). The recommended way now is blade to the heart from behind (Blattfang)

cookimonster

riffmongous wrote: »

..........blade to the heart from behind (Blattfang)....

'BLATTFANG'..... that's the dogs boll#cks and my new go to, cover all expression....'BLATTFANG That!!!!!'

Did German miserably in school but you've got to love those expressions...:D

PL05

In October I put a stag out of it's misery. I was heading back to Jeep after a stalk when I noticed what looked like a big stag standing looking at me, about 80 metres away. As it was too dark at time and its position, either way, I couldn't take a shot safely. I could see him clearly through binos so i stood watching him for a while. He was aware that i was there and after a few minutes I could see his head moving up and down which at the time it looked like he was coming for me. So as you can imagine, I thought, (**** I'm f...ked). Then suddenly he turned to his right and disappeared into heavy gorse leaving behind a hind (which I didn't see with him) staring at me and looking after him it was funny the way she kept looking back and forth. Anyway I decided to go back the next evening to same spot and sat in. After about an hour and a half a stag appeared on brow of a hill. I decided to wait and see if he would come over hill into a spot for a safe shot. When he moved the head was dropping to the ground with every stride. It was obvious that this animal was injured. I took the shot and as he tried to run it looked like he tumbled head over heels.Anyway when i got to him it was clear why his head was dropping as he moved . He was missing one of his back legs at the joint and it was raw and stank . On closer examination I noticed that he was missing a ear also. There was no scaring around ear, it was just a bump where the ear should be. On the same side as missing ear the antler was badly distorted and his snout looked longer than a normal stags should. In general this animal was in bad condition e.g skin and bone and stank bad. This is the second time I,ve put a badly injured one out of it's misery.

Grizzly 45

riffmongous wrote: »

This method is actually not taught or encouraged anymore in Germany, reason given it takes a lot of practice and experience to do correctly and is not in accordance with animal welfare (Tierschutzgerecht). The recommended way now is blade to the heart from behind (Blattfang)

Well when I did the Jager prufing hunting test awhile back this was the preferred method. And as for Blatt fang it is not a method but a HUNTING TERM!!
Translated means "A term used to describe the ethical manner of dispatching game with a " bladed weapon"I]blank waffe[/I So that can mean anything from a swiss army knife to a boar spearI]sau feder[/I,as deer catcher[Hirsh fanger[Type of short sword used for deer hunting on horse back] Waid blattA broad bladed hunting knife like a chopper or Waid nickerThe more common German hunting knife and the "nicker " part refers to another German hunting term "Ab nicken" to humanely dispatch a downed beast,as it lowers its head[nicke den kopf,lower ones head].To dispatch the way you are describing is a so called Kammer stich or a chest cut. It is good ,but a no go unless you have a minimum 15 cm blade handy.IE something like a deer catcher.

From what I can see there is debate about this new animal welfare law,and the main point is that if you do use a knife to put the animal down it must be as painless and least distressing as possible. ERGO No ISIS style throat cutting or stabbing about the place looking for the heart.
It may well be that certain different German Federal states have different approved methods or interpertations of how that this must be done in the hunting test.Bavaria,where I did my liscense had my described method,maybe Hessen or Sachsen has something different??TBH it might work well with a roe deer or such but anything larger like a red or a wild boar,I wouldnt fancy it,plus if you have onlookers [in the Irish sense]how is it going to look if you are there carving Bambis throat open,or stabbing her in the heart with blood pumping all over the place?Or one quick knife thrust to the base of the skull,no blood and its all over.What looks more professional and cleaner and improves our image?

LATER
The only place I can find any specifics on this is Switzerlands hunting laws.Zurich prohibts abnicken specifically,but TBH I dot think the second Swiss method is too humane.Stunning the animal with an appropriate object.. IE technically bashing its head in with a rock if need be!!

riffmongous

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well when I did the Jager prufing hunting test awhile back this was the preferred method. And as for Blatt fang it is not a method but a HUNTING TERM!!
Translated means "A term used to describe the ethical manner of dispatching game with a " bladed weapon"I]blank waffe[/I So that can mean anything from a swiss army knife to a boar spearI]sau feder[/I,as deer catcher[Hirsh fanger[Type of short sword used for deer hunting on horse back] Waid blattA broad bladed hunting knife like a chopper or Waid nickerThe more common German hunting knife and the "nicker " part refers to another German hunting term "Ab nicken" to humanely dispatch a downed beast,as it lowers its head[nicke den kopf,lower ones head].To dispatch the way you are describing is a so called Kammer stich or a chest cut. It is good ,but a no go unless you have a minimum 15 cm blade handy.IE something like a deer catcher.

I disagree about it being a term and not a method, in the current syllabus it is referred to as a method, alongside Abnicken and the Kälberfang. Attached are two pages from two different current course books, in one it is explicitly rejected and the other depends on the interpretation of 'abgelehnt', but it's at the very least discouraged.

It's a different situation fair enough though, from someone out hunting and properly trained+equipped to German/Austrian standards versus someone just coming across an animal in Ireland, but I don't live in Ireland so I can't really comment on what's good or bad there (although I agree re onlookers), only what I know from studying for the hunting test here.

Grizzly 45

riffmongous wrote: »

I disagree about it being a term and not a method, in the current syllabus it is referred to as a method, alongside Abnicken and the Kälberfang.

Bitte sehr....Unter Blattfang versteht man in der Jägersprache eine besondere Art des tierschutzgerechten Tötens von Wild mit einem Messer.[1] Jagd wiki

The definition of Blattfang in the hunters terminology is a specific and humane method of dispatching game with a knife


In der Jägersprache ist „Abnicken“ eine Form des Abfangens. Es bedeutet das Töten eines schwer verletzten Tieres durch einen Stich mit einem Nicker zwischen die obersten Halswirbel und die Schädelbasis. Das Rückenmark ist dort, oberhalb des Atlas oder Axis, relativ leicht zu durchtrennen.[/I] Jagd wiki

In the hunters terminology Abnicken is a form of dispatch of an injured animal using a knife[nicker] with a cut between the uppermost spine and the base of the skull.The spine is easily cut there above the Atlas or Axis bone

Definitions are vitally important in the "Jagd Latien".Make sure you got those right as they will crucify you on points in the oral.[If they still do that?]

Attached are two pages from two different current course books, in one it is explicitly rejected and the other depends on the interpretation of 'abgelehnt', but it's at the very least discouraged.

Ok ,that has changed then[2015??] as these books are the two building blocks of the German hunters test.I did mine in the 1980s when this was the only method taught and when the hunting test was a two year long understudy,not a 30 day quickie like it is now.:) So I am old school on this.But then I've only had to do it once sofar,and the "reh"[roe deer] had no complaints about it.:)

It's a different situation fair enough though, from someone out hunting and properly trained+equipped to German/Austrian standards versus someone just coming across an animal in Ireland, but I don't live in Ireland so I can't really comment on what's good or bad there (although I agree re onlookers), only what I know from studying for the hunting test here.

Well, the whole point here was to give people some info on quick dispatch of injured animals if you hadn't a gun handy and there is a risk to the public with firing live rounds or not to alarm the general poupulation of snowflakes if you were doing a humane act and not making it look like you were butchering the animal there and then on the road side.
Seeing that you now kindly provided some pics of both methods hunters reading this can now decide which is the better option to use if they end up in this situation. Although a "Fang schuss"[dispatch shot] with an appropriate pistol is the safest and most efficent method.But Irish deer hunters shot themselves in the foot with refusing to contemplate this as a "good reason" to support pistol ownership here awhile back..:rolleyes: