Is modern Irish society missing something? ****SRS****

Elemonator

Posted into AH as I'm looking for more informal conversation but if mods know of a more suitable forum, please move it.

I had a conversation with my dad today about older Ireland when he was growing up in the 1970's and 1980's and naturally the conversation of the near destruction of the Catholic Church came up. I am not religious in the slightest and the immediate family are not religious either but one topic that came up was the relationship between law and order and religion in Ireland.

As many of you know, for ages Ireland was a devout religious country and it is only in the past decade or that it has well and truly collapsed. It is also (based on my observance) that Ireland has become more rough. I am always reading the news about some poor soul has been assaulted on the streets of Cork or some robbery in Galway. I also notice a growing attitude of just not caring in Irish society, whether it be your neighbour etc.

My point being that since the Catholic Church's fall in popularity here, Ireland has become a different country in terms of law and order and looking after each other. It of course still exists, but not on the level it once did where Ireland once almost policed itself. One could always argue that the Church was hardly one for ideals between the various scandals that have erupted throughout the years and we have more access to news outlets so naturally we would hear about what is going on more easily.

What are your thoughts AH? I am still thinking about this, it gave me a lot of food for thought. Sorry for ****storm of an opening post

Turtyturd

What's the blocked out word in the title?

Grayson

Crime is lower than it was. So I guess you're wrong.

Grayson

Turtyturd wrote: »

What's the blocked out word in the title?

racial epitaphs for culchies I guess

Elemonator

Turtyturd wrote: »

What's the blocked out word in the title?

I put them there, assumed it would draw attention to SRS.

I thought it meant serious

Peregrine

Did you know that there's a direct correlation between the decline of Spirograph and the rise in gang activity?

mariaalice

Society has actuley become more regulated, safer and secure since the 1970s and it is far more to do with becoming a wealthy society that any thing else. The media has amplified the perception of danger.

ChikiChiki

8 reported suicides in Cork over the weeked, 100s over the year with many not registered as suicide. I can't put my finger on why as we are living in a country with all the opportunity in the world. But it is a problem and we are missing something in this area.

Sorry if I'm gone off topic a little but it breaks my heart.

odyssey06

Ireland was not a devout Catholic country in the 1820s... by all accounts its' morals in matters of sexuality would have shocked (mortified!) an Irish Catholic priest of 100 years later. In the post Famine period, Irish society was broken, and in the absence of a native Irish (as opposed to British) leadership, the Catholic hierarchy stepped in as moral watchdogs.

Modern society in general is missing something... I'm not convinced it is religion. Remember on a daily basis in mid 20th century Ireland, Catholic institutions meted out daily punishments to children that in 2017 would be considered serious criminal offences!

Grayson

Dublin had the biggest redlight area in Europe until the 1920's.

matrim

Elemonator wrote: »

Posted into AH as I'm looking for more informal conversation but if mods know of a more suitable forum, please move it.

I had a conversation with my dad today about older Ireland when he was growing up in the 1970's and 1980's and naturally the conversation of the near destruction of the Catholic Church came up. I am not religious in the slightest and the immediate family are not religious either but one topic that came up was the relationship between law and order and religion in Ireland.

As many of you know, for ages Ireland was a devout religious country and it is only in the past decade or that it has well and truly collapsed. It is also (based on my observance) that Ireland has become more rough. I am always reading the news about some poor soul has been assaulted on the streets of Cork or some robbery in Galway. I also notice a growing attitude of just not caring in Irish society, whether it be your neighbour etc.

My point being that since the Catholic Church's fall in popularity here, Ireland has become a different country in terms of law and order and looking after each other. It of course still exists, but not on the level it once did where Ireland once almost policed itself. One could always argue that the Church was hardly one for ideals between the various scandals that have erupted throughout the years and we have more access to news outlets so naturally we would hear about what is going on more easily.

What are your thoughts AH? I am still thinking about this, it gave me a lot of food for thought. Sorry for ****storm of an opening post

Do you think the teacher / priest / parent beating the ****e out of a kid counts as rough? Because I'm sure there was a lot more of that happening 50 years ago

stimpson

Correlation does not imply causation, otherwise we could blame global warming on a lack of pirates:

Elemonator

stimpson wrote: »

Correlation does not imply causation, otherwise we could blame global warming on a lack of pirates:

Of course. But I think public morality and religion are a bit more closely linked than temperature and pirates.

Dyr

Peregrine wrote: »

Did you know that there's a direct correlation between the decline of Spirograph and the rise in gang activity?

More research needs to be done on the impact of the disappearance of sodastreams from Ireland on the rise of drug cartels

Agricola

It's the same as small town or village life vs big city life. Ireland, until recently was effectively a small town. Not much industry, no one went anywhere interesting, everyone knew everyone and their business. In fact, the only thing most people could do to stave off boredom was talk about people in the parish.

Nowadays most people are fairly well travelled, we are open to outsiders and new ideas, we have a plethora of things to keep us engaged/distracted and the standard of living is relatively good, so a lot of people are chasing careers and money, where years ago they just got by, farmed or were homemakers.

It's all go in modern Ireland and that is reflected in the noticeable decline of auid time Irish sensibilities and the increase in isolation, suicide, violent crime. It's a by product of being a modern first world country.

mariaalice

I have a bit of theory about this as western society has become more wealthy, more educated, and has giving individuals more choice, become more regulated the vast majority of violent crime is now committed by those with some sort of psychopathic disorder, its why there is more random violence. This is a problem for society because no amount of education, interventions, theories on rights ect is going to change a psychotic violent individual.

stimpson

Elemonator wrote: »

Of course. But I think public morality and religion are a bit more closely linked than temperature and pirates.

Yeah, but the point is that you can't assume that one causes the other. It may be the other way around or they may be both caused buy a third factor. Or it could just be a coincidence.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Elemonator wrote: »

Posted into AH as I'm looking for more informal conversation but if mods know of a more suitable forum, please move it.

I had a conversation with my dad today about older Ireland when he was growing up in the 1970's and 1980's and naturally the conversation of the near destruction of the Catholic Church came up. I am not religious in the slightest and the immediate family are not religious either but one topic that came up was the relationship between law and order and religion in Ireland.

As many of you know, for ages Ireland was a devout religious country and it is only in the past decade or that it has well and truly collapsed. It is also (based on my observance) that Ireland has become more rough. I am always reading the news about some poor soul has been assaulted on the streets of Cork or some robbery in Galway. I also notice a growing attitude of just not caring in Irish society, whether it be your neighbour etc.

My point being that since the Catholic Church's fall in popularity here, Ireland has become a different country in terms of law and order and looking after each other. It of course still exists, but not on the level it once did where Ireland once almost policed itself. One could always argue that the Church was hardly one for ideals between the various scandals that have erupted throughout the years and we have more access to news outlets so naturally we would hear about what is going on more easily.

What are your thoughts AH? I am still thinking about this, it gave me a lot of food for thought. Sorry for ****storm of an opening post

Corealtaion =/= causation.

The idea that the church instilled law and order is erroneous at best - they were breaking laws to beat the band themselves.

The real reason for the change is this: rule by fear never ever EVER lasts long. At some point, people will ask questions and discover that the wizard behind the curtain is not really as powerful or all-knowing as he claims to be, and they begin to question him. And when they realise he has no answers and they need not respect him, they lose respect for him.

And this is exactly what happened in the early nineties with the advent of the internet. People no longer had to take the church's word for something, they could go look things up. Which they did, and found out that the world outside was not how they were told it was and how the church had been lying to them in order to scare and control them.

The same thing happened (but not nessecarily because of the internet) in Eastern Europe and the communists, and South Africa and aparthied.

The probelm arose then of a power vaccum. Tabloids tried to step in, but inly stoked the flames. Governments distracted people with shiny objects, but again, that proved to be only temporary.

learn_more

A lot of violent crimes (murders etc ) that are reported in the media is disproportionately caused by immigrants. The media go out of their way to hide that fact for fear of being called racist.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

learn_more wrote: »

A lot of violent crimes (murders etc ) that are reported in the media is disproportionately caused by immigrants. The media go out of their way to hide that fact for fear of being called racist.

And you know this because...?

mariaalice

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And you know this because...?

You will only drew them all out!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

mariaalice wrote: »

You will only drew them all out!

Oh God, no. They never come back when you stand up and point out that their claim is actually unverifyable. A bit like the church, really.

goose2005

Elemonator wrote: »

Posted into AH as I'm looking for more informal conversation but if mods know of a more suitable forum, please move it.

As many of you know, for ages Ireland was a devout religious country and it is only in the past decade or that it has well and truly collapsed. It is also (based on my observance) that Ireland has become more rough. I am always reading the news about some poor soul has been assaulted on the streets of Cork or some robbery in Galway. I also notice a growing attitude of just not caring in Irish society, whether it be your neighbour etc.

Just not caring? I think people care about each other as much as they ever did, if not substantially more. Where was 'care' when Ireland was full of dumping grounds for the misfits - magdalene asylums, lunatic asylums, county homes, borstals, industrial schools, and of course the emigrant ship?

And violence has been declining constantly from a peak in the mid-90s.

goose2005

mariaalice wrote: »

no amount of education, interventions, theories on rights ect is going to change a psychotic violent individual.

But if fewer children are abused or malnourished or neglected, it stands to reason that fewer will grow up to be psychopaths

B.A._Baracus

I think the decline in religious people hasn't nothing to do with Ireland becoming more rough..

I think the world is just getting more rough as it is.

Earthhorse

There is certainly less cohesion to society without the church being taken as the moral authority on all things but that doesn't count for much when you consider they really had no right to that moral authority in the first place.

I don't really think that's at the centre of any perceived increase in crime or us becoming a less caring society.

mariaalice

goose2005 wrote: »

But if fewer children are abused or malnourished or neglected, it stands to reason that fewer will grow up to be psychopaths

Nature verses nurture the science seem to be coming down more and more on the nature side as far as I can tell that does not mean that nurture is not important.

Elemonator

Elemonator wrote: »

P

I had a conversation with my dad today about older Ireland when he was growing up in the 1970's and 1980's (

OMG I'm so old and this forum has got so young:(

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

B.A._Baracus

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

But that's your opinion (and the authors opinion) while I have mine.

We could both get back quoting valid reasons as to why you believe this, while I'll believe that etc. At the end of the day... It's just our individual opinions.

seamus

Elemonator wrote: »

Of course. But I think public morality and religion are a bit more closely linked than temperature and pirates.

Indeed. There's a strong correlation between high religious observance and high levels of assaults, especially against women, as well as corruption and murder.

The most moral countries in the world are also the ones with the lowest level of religious influence in public life.