SonOff Low Cost Wifi Switches for Home Automation

msmx5 · 08-01-2019 4:05pm

Shpongler wrote: »

Thanks for that,
Yeah a sonoff basic would be more suitable for sure. As the boiler was already wired to a mains socket when we moved in I figured I could use an s26 straight to power the unit on and off. It does work but could be dangerous.

I've used a sonoff basic (and later a Sonoff Th16) to do exactly what you are planning.

As you seem to know, the boiler normally has a constant live supply (so pump can be kept running when boiler isn't fired - for example).

To use the sonoff just find the switched output from the mechanical timer switch and use the sonoff to replicate this.. ie after providing 220v to the sonoff inputs connect the live output to the same terminal the mechanical out is going to. I actually mounted the Sonoff in parallel with an older timer switch (which I programmed to be normally off) so either can be used to control the boiler if needed (with the note that once either is on the boiler is on -- you can't switch off the boiler using the sonoff if the old timer is ON when installed in parallel.

Shpongler · 08-01-2019 5:24pm

Thanks for the reply,

I found the output live from the mechanical timer and connected the live from the sonoff to it. It's working away fine. I don't need to use the mechanical timer anymore as it runs slow.
One thing I am wondering is, do I need to wire up the neutral too, or is it fine as is?

I'm still going to do a proper job and order a sonoff basic and use the s26 for something more suitable.

11-01-2019 7:12pm

Can anyone recommend the best place to buy Sonoff devices that ensure a quick delivery?

Every time I buy them it takes at least 2 months for them to arrive

Thanks

thatwilldopig · 11-01-2019 7:26pm

Amazon....

11-01-2019 7:45pm

thatwilldopig wrote: »

Amazon....

The last one I ordered from them nothing arrived. Following a 4 month wait they reimbursed me

Shefwedfan · 12-01-2019 10:11pm

Hi,

I have this timer running outside lights for driveway etc. I would like to replace it with a smart switch.

Will one of these work? or do I need something else?

https://www.banggood.com/DIY-Wi-Fi-Wireless-Switch-For-Smart-Home-With-ABS-Shell-p-1019971.html?gmcCountry=IE&currency=EUR&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_union&utm_content=2zou&utm_campaign=ssc-ie-all&gclid=Cj0KCQiAvebhBRD5ARIsAIQUmnnUtFJguxwU9-m78tM8uQCYm_9CN67LIWKkoh0FnLtqDtUU5wNtfV8aAv2CEALw_wcB&cur_warehouse=CN

Thanks

12-01-2019 10:55pm

Yes.

Shefwedfan · 12-01-2019 11:08pm

Final question for the miin

I have a 4 zone house, two have motorized values which work based on the thermostat(house and water). Once the house is on then all pumps kick in.

I was thinking of putting on two motorized values onto the other two zone, then using one of these switch's to open close it. Does that sound reasonable?

The current heating is run using Climote but if it works I suppose I could use the same setup for everything

Black_Knight · 12-01-2019 11:20pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Final question for the miin

I have a 4 zone house, two have motorized values which work based on the thermostat(house and water). Once the house is on then all pumps kick in.

I was thinking of putting on two motorized values onto the other two zone, then using one of these switch's to open close it. Does that sound reasonable?

The current heating is run using Climote but if it works I suppose I could use the same setup for everything

What opens/closed a motorised valve? A sonoff is just a basic switch. It allows power to flow through it or not. Is there a wire on the valve that once power is applied to it the valve opens or closes?

EDIT: I know nothing about how motorised valves work, so feel free to school me

Shefwedfan · 12-01-2019 11:53pm

Black_Knight wrote: »

What opens/closed a motorised valve? A sonoff is just a basic switch. It allows power to flow through it or not. Is there a wire on the valve that once power is applied to it the valve opens or closes?

EDIT: I know nothing about how motorised valves work, so feel free to school me

At the moment the two motorized valve are connected to a thermostat. So once the thermostat gets to a certain temp it will close the value and also it is connected to turn off the boiler.

Now if I connected via the switch, I could manually turn on the valve and it would in turn send hot water to that section of house and then turn it off when I don't want. I would not use the switch to turn on/off the boiler. This would still be managed via the Climote system in place.

So I would have 4 zone, today I don't want bedroom 2,3,4 to heat up as nobody in them, just get switch to turn off motorized value, so then when heating turns on it doesn't send hot water to that section of house......other option is smart thermostatic values on the radiators but I have 20+ rads so it would cost a lot more

Dr4gul4 · 14-01-2019 9:45am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

At the moment the two motorized valve are connected to a thermostat. So once the thermostat gets to a certain temp it will close the value and also it is connected to turn off the boiler.

Now if I connected via the switch, I could manually turn on the valve and it would in turn send hot water to that section of house and then turn it off when I don't want. I would not use the switch to turn on/off the boiler. This would still be managed via the Climote system in place.

So I would have 4 zone, today I don't want bedroom 2,3,4 to heat up as nobody in them, just get switch to turn off motorized value, so then when heating turns on it doesn't send hot water to that section of house......other option is smart thermostatic values on the radiators but I have 20+ rads so it would cost a lot more

What if the boiler/ Pump isnt running and you open the zone ?

I have a similar set up for hotwater, the only reaf diff, my boiler has power 24/7 as does the main pump ( it's not a great design, im working towards fixing it) I use a Th16 to monitor the temp in the hot tank, when it hits 40 degrees, the Pow R2 opens the motorized valve, and closes it once the Temp hits 60 ..

Shefwedfan · 14-01-2019 2:40pm

Dr4gul4 wrote: »

What if the boiler/ Pump isnt running and you open the zone ?

I have a similar set up for hotwater, the only reaf diff, my boiler has power 24/7 as does the main pump ( it's not a great design, im working towards fixing it) I use a Th16 to monitor the temp in the hot tank, when it hits 40 degrees, the Pow R2 opens the motorized valve, and closes it once the Temp hits 60 ..

I would need to somehow connect both the pump and the valve. So if you open the zone then you turn on the valve to pump the water.

Based on a faulty pump recently, if the pump comes on it seems to trigger the boiler to start so I would need to be careful with it. But again if I manage from phone it would be ok

Black_Knight · 14-01-2019 2:50pm

Dr4gul4 wrote: »

What if the boiler/ Pump isnt running and you open the zone ?

Why do you ask? Is this bad practice?

I've a somewhat unique scenario where i've got upstairs zoned (or to be zoned, the valve is in, but nothing wired up). I have a sonoff controlling my boiler on/off. I have temperature sensors around the house also. Using these temperature sensors, I want to be able to close/open the valve upstairs so that during the day i'm not unnecessarily heating the upstairs of the house.

If the boiler is off, and the valve is open, what harm? That's how my heating is setup most the day anyways.

Dr4gul4 · 14-01-2019 2:53pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Based on a faulty pump recently, if the pump comes on it seems to trigger the boiler to start so I would need to be careful with it. But again if I manage from phone it would be ok

This could be the case, altho I would maybe see it as backwards ( deployment specific ).

Your Climote currently is the Switched Live for the boiler / pump, you could need to know if this SL is active, and if so, only trigger the Valve.

It's all do able, in theory, look at the shell1 devices they might serve the Climote part, or maybe a sonoff 4 chan pro configured in interlocking mode.

ozmo · 14-01-2019 4:33pm

For all these applications - do consider consider fault conditions -
eg. if you are away for a weekend and the internet goes down, or sonoff servers go down (they have in the past), or a password expires somewhere - could the device end up be left powered on continuously and would that be a bad thing.

Black_Knight · 14-01-2019 11:24pm

ozmo wrote: »

For all these applications - do consider consider fault conditions -
eg. if you are away for a weekend and the internet goes down, or sonoff servers go down (they have in the past), or a password expires somewhere - could the device end up be left powered on continuously and would that be a bad thing.

Very true, though if you're away for the weekend you'd likely not leave the heating on before you go. Sonoff has a button to toggle on/off in event of a server outage or password issue.

I flash all my Sonoffs with Tasmota and run them posting locally to an MQTT server. Heating is controlled by Home Assistant, so internet going down isn't a problem. If a sensor or switch disconnects (it'll reconnect by might not establish a link to MQTT - this has happened before and caused my heating to stay on for too long while I was in the house) I can use its last will and testament sent by the device as a flag to initiate a reboot.

So far i've had no noticeable outages since implementing this reboot flag.

Dr4gul4 · 15-01-2019 10:34am

Black_Knight wrote: »

I can use its last will and testament sent by the device as a flag to initiate a reboot.

So far i've had no noticeable outages since implementing this reboot flag.

I'd be interested to see how you achieved that BK ? is it an automation, or a Rule in tasmota ?

tnegun · 16-01-2019 2:22pm

I've flashed one of my S26's with Tasmota but it won't boot from the mains but as soon as I power the 3.3v line it boots and I can connect and configure it, anyone seen anything like this?

Black_Knight · 16-01-2019 8:33pm

Dr4gul4 wrote: »

I'd be interested to see how you achieved that BK ? is it an automation, or a Rule in tasmota ?

I jinxed it. I had 2 sensors stop transmitting yesterday, and my automation didn't kick them back to life. I've updated it now to curl a reboot command to them. I might need to add some retries for resiliency.
I'm still using the LWT to trigger the reboot via home assistant.

I should clear up. I flash my Sonoffs with Tasmota, and they've been rock solid. I flash my Wemos D1 minis with ESPEasy, since I use these as temperature sensors with a 7 seg display attached. Tasmota does send a lwt if you wanted to apply the same principles.

For example:
lwt message:

/ESPEasy_MasterBedroom/status/LWT Connected

I pull that value into home assistant:

sensor:
  - platform: mqtt
    name: "Master Bedroom - LWT"
    state_topic: "/ESPEasy_MasterBedroom/status/LWT"

And use automation to reboot the sensor (flashed with ESPEasy)

automation:
  - alias: Master Bedroom ESP Recovery
    trigger:
      platform: state
      entity_id: sensor.master_bedroom_lwt
      to: 'Connection Lost'
      for:
        minutes: 5
    action:
      - service: shell_command.esp_reboot
        data_template:
          url: 'http://192.168.0.91/?cmd=reboot'

So far i'm only really seeing my device disconnect from my MQTT broker, so the IP is still available. If it fell off the network and needed a reboot, i'm out of luck, though I could try retrying the automation over and over if by chance it reconnects.

The setup I mentioned previously was posting to a topic which the sensor was listing to. ESPEasy has a device type called "MQTT Import" which will listen to a topic. I combine that with a "Rule" in ESPEasy to reboot the device when I send the specific value to that topic.

Rule:

on System#Boot do
 Publish &#37;sysname%/status,Booted
 Publish %sysname%/IP,%ip%
endon

on sniff#cmdMQTT=1 do
  Publish /%sysname%/IP,%ip%
endon

on sniff#cmdMQTT=2 do
  Publish /%sysname%/Time,%systime%
endon

on sniff#cmdMQTT=3 do
 Publish /%sysname%/status,Rebooting
 Reboot
endon

tnegun · 18-01-2019 7:39pm

tnegun wrote: »

I've flashed one of my S26's with Tasmota but it won't boot from the mains but as soon as I power the 3.3v line it boots and I can connect and configure it, anyone seen anything like this?

Just to reply to my own question, the PSU on the board isn't working the other 2 S26s I flashed without issue. Have come across another problem with a couple of basics and a S20 they're flashed with ESPEasy and I can't get them into Flash mode to reflash them any ideas?

antietam1 · 28-01-2019 12:59pm

Don't know if you guys recall but as an electrician I was struggling and embarrassed trying to get sonoff to work on my mobile data and more or less gave up.
Had to get vodaphone to replace my phone and it all works fine now, still have to turn off wifi to get the Kasa app( xmas gift) working on mobile data.
May I ask where is the best place to update the app for sonoff, the app store?
got the app updated thanks.

Muahahaha · 29-01-2019 9:29pm

Wanna get a few Sonoff 26's but avoid lengthy shipping from China. Anyone recommend a Irish/UK seller at decent prices?

antietam1 · 30-01-2019 6:27pm

Shpongler wrote: »

Thanks for the reply,

I found the output live from the mechanical timer and connected the live from the sonoff to it. It's working away fine. I don't need to use the mechanical timer anymore as it runs slow.
One thing I am wondering is, do I need to wire up the neutral too, or is it fine as is?

I'm still going to do a proper job and order a sonoff basic and use the s26 for something more suitable.

I always just switch the live through the device and leave the neutral as is .

GBX · 30-01-2019 6:29pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Wanna get a few Sonoff 26's but avoid lengthy shipping from China. Anyone recommend a Irish/UK seller at decent prices?

Amazon ?

Jakey Rolling · 02-02-2019 10:10am

ozmo wrote: »

For all these applications - do consider consider fault conditions -
eg. if you are away for a weekend and the internet goes down, or sonoff servers go down (they have in the past), or a password expires somewhere - could the device end up be left powered on continuously and would that be a bad thing.

This is a concern I have - are there different versions or can you hard code so that they fail either o/c or c/c as suits your application?

I'm just looking for a timed relay to operate a 2kw bathroom heater, don't want it failing ON while we are away! Needs to fit in an existing single gang back box. May just go with a regular push button timer for this so kids can operate it easily.

03-02-2019 2:06pm

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

This is a concern I have - are there different versions or can you hard code so that they fail either o/c or c/c as suits your application?

Obviously fail off is safer. Remember there is a manual override button on the Sonoff. Not sure if this is on all, but it is on the TH16 and TH10.

May just go with a regular push button timer for this so kids can operate it easily.

This option could be wired to work in parallel to a Sonoff.

antietam1 · 12-03-2019 1:16pm

Guys I seem to frequently get the message "session ended" both on my phone and tablet.
Need to enlarge the font size for when I am out on my walk, is this doable?
Anyhow is it normal to get session ended a few times a week.

Johnboy1951 · 13-04-2019 10:38pm

Obviously I am very late to this party

I have some questions I hope someone can answer as I have not found definitive evidence so far ....

1. Sonoff Basic: After a power outage, when power is reapplied to the Sonoff, in what state is the relay? Does it settle to connected or open? Does it perhaps go closed then open shortly afterwards or vice versa?

2. Relay: One video I saw seemed to show the relay as a 5V device (coil) but would like to know for definite what DC voltage is generated by the PSU and used on the board.

3. Sonoffs - general: Is it necessary to access the Sonoffs (at least initially) via a specific app or can they be accessed in any other way to initialise them and join them to the network (get IP address etc.)?

4. Home Assistant: what are you using for
a) PC hardware
b) Operating system
Any other items that should be considered when planning to get into some of this.

I have a multi-zone (multi-loop) underfloor heating system, and plan to have remote control of each loop using individual actuators on the manifold. I plan to set up some groups as well as having individual control and reckon separate Sonoff Basics would suit fine, all housed in a box for tidiness. If this is not desirable or the most efficient please comment.

All of this is intended to be only available to local control, probably from a Linux PC. I expect to use a separate router and LAN segment which should keep things isolated as I wish.

I also expect to have to flash the Sonoffs with Tasmota to get all the functionality I need. Some advise on the best hardware to buy for my intended use would be appreciated .... it must be compatible with Linux for instance.

I am attempting to plan ahead so I know what I will need to have/do long before I actually get around to do it

BTW, While reading this thread I saw lots of references to Stringify, so thought this link dated 8th April ....... it does not give year so wondered if it is current?
https://www.stringify.com/stringifyshuttingdown/

Thanks for reading.

air · 13-04-2019 11:29pm

I've attempted to answer some of your questions below:

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Obviously I am very late to this party I have some questions I hope someone can answer as I have not found definitive evidence so far ....

1. Sonoff Basic: After a power outage, when power is reapplied to the Sonoff, in what state is the relay? Does it settle to connected or open? Does it perhaps go closed then open shortly afterwards or vice versa?

You can select to maintain the previous state or have it on or off when power is restored in the default app.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

2. Relay: One video I saw seemed to show the relay as a 5V device (coil) but would like to know for definite what DC voltage is generated by the PSU and used on the board.

They use 5V relays. This one is compatible with them - https://ie.farnell.com/omron-electronic-components/g5ca-1ae-5dc/relay-spst-125vac-30vdc-15a/dp/1257565

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

3. Sonoffs - general: Is it necessary to access the Sonoffs (at least initially) via a specific app or can they be accessed in any other way to initialise them and join them to the network (get IP address etc.)?

Using the default app/firmware there is local network support now but you need internet access for adding devices etc. For local use you'd really be better off with Tasmota or another alternative FW.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I have a multi-zone (multi-loop) underfloor heating system, and plan to have remote control of each loop using individual actuators on the manifold. I plan to set up some groups as well as having individual control and reckon separate Sonoff Basics would suit fine, all housed in a box for tidiness. If this is not desirable or the most efficient please comment.

The 4 channel version is a tidier proposition for installations like this, the end result will be more compact. The basic version uses a common neutral across all 4 channels, the pro version has independent neutral connections and supports channel interlocking etc.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I also expect to have to flash the Sonoffs with Tasmota to get all the functionality I need. Some advise on the best hardware to buy for my intended use would be appreciated .... it must be compatible with Linux for instance.

In terms of the devices themselves they're all the same in this regard.

Johnboy1951 · 14-04-2019 1:40am

@air

Thank you for your clear responses. Much appreciated.

I will read again tomorrow (past sleep time now) and hopefully absorb the info better.

Thanks again!

Johnboy1951 · 14-04-2019 10:37am

air wrote: »

I've attempted to answer some of your questions below:

You can select to maintain the previous state or have it on or off when power is restored in the default app.

That's good news, and as much as I had hoped for.

They use 5V relays. This one is compatible with them - https://ie.farnell.com/omron-electronic-components/g5ca-1ae-5dc/relay-spst-125vac-30vdc-15a/dp/1257565

Nice to have the relay confirmed.

Do you know what other voltages the on board PSU generates? ... 5v and maybe 3.3v etc?

Do you know if there is a scematic of the board on line anywhere?

Using the default app/firmware there is local network support now but you need internet access for adding devices etc. For local use you'd really be better off with Tasmota or another alternative FW.

Thanks for that .... seems the first order of business will be to flash any device I get, as I have no intention of using their internet thingy.

The 4 channel version is a tidier proposition for installations like this, the end result will be more compact. The basic version uses a common neutral across all 4 channels, the pro version has independent neutral connections and supports channel interlocking etc.

Thanks for that. Yes for ease of wiring it seems the 4 channel versions will be much more convenient.

I would hope not to need the Pro version and be able to group channels as I wish in whatever controlling software I use ..... do I understand this correctly?

In terms of the devices themselves they're all the same in this regard.

The 4 channel devices are as easy/hard to flash as the single devices using the same flash hardware ...... but different flash software?

Your post has been most helpful.
I tend to approach things from a different angle to most it seems, so a lot of my questions don't seem to be covered by the general info I read.

Thanks again ........ if there is anything else you or others would like to add I would be grateful for the extra info.

.

Johnboy1951 · 14-04-2019 11:39am

Is there an electrical or performance difference between the S20 and S26 socket switches?
I have checked the Itead page and failed to see anything other than price and shape differences.

I must have missed something while looking at the product list down the page here

https://www.itead.cc/sonoff-s26-wifi-smart-plug.html

Johnboy1951 · 14-04-2019 7:14pm

Just dropping a note to say I noticed that the 4 channel Sonoff has a TOTAL load capacity of 16A with each individual switch rated at 10A.

For my intended use it will not matter, but if switching heavier loads then individual switches might be necessary giving a total load of 40A for 4.

I would appreciate it if some links to the purchase of the USB to TTL device which worked without problems could be posted.
From what I read some of the flashing fails due to 3.3V voltage drop over the leads, but some devices use extra circuitry to deliver 3.3V at a higher power.

Trying to ensure I get reliable device (or 2) is all.

Thanks for any tips/links in this regards.

14-04-2019 10:28pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Just dropping a note to say I noticed that the 4 channel Sonoff has a TOTAL load capacity of 16A with each individual switch rated at 10A.

For my intended use it will not matter, but if switching heavier loads then individual switches might be necessary giving a total load of 40A for 4.

All you have to do is to get the Sonoff device to switch a contactor that has the required rating.

So if I had a 40 amp load that I needed to control via a Sonoff I would simply get the Sonoff to switch a contactor rated for a minimum of 40A. The load is then fed through the contractor. This would be considered standard practice. It is best to build in a safety margin so I would generally select a contractor rated for at least 45A.

Johnboy1951 · 14-04-2019 11:16pm

2011 wrote: »

All you have to do is to get the Sonoff device to switch a contactor that has the required rating.

So if I had a 40 amp load that I needed to control via a Sonoff I would simply get the Sonoff to switch a contactor rated for a minimum of 40A. The load is then fed through the contractor. This would be considered standard practice. It is best to build in a safety margin so I would generally select a contractor rated for at least 45A.

Yes I am aware I can use an external relay to switch heavy loads.
I was not aware until today that the total load of a 4 channel unit was only 16 Amp while each individual has a 10 Amp rating.

Without that info it would have been easy to try switching 4 x 5amp loads and exceed the overall rating.

Dr4gul4 · 15-04-2019 11:08am

Just a quick comment for johnboy there, take a look at esphome if you are in a greenfield state, it integrates with HA and cuts out the requirement for MQTT.

If you're hoping to control the UFH loops with the 4chan pro's how are you intending on telling them to open ?

Johnboy1951 · 15-04-2019 12:22pm

Dr4gul4 wrote: »

Just a quick comment for johnboy there, take a look at esphome if you are in a greenfield state, it integrates with HA and cuts out the requirement for MQTT.

If you're hoping to control the UFH loops with the 4chan pro's how are you intending on telling them to open ?

Thanks that esphome is on my 'to read' list ..... was reading a bit about it yesterday.

Do you use it?

Yes I am in a completely HA virgin state here.

I was looking at the 4 ch units rather than the Pro version.
Is there a reason I should consider the Pro?

My present leaning is to set up a completely separate network (wired for cameras and wires for control switches etc) using a spare router, and have on that LAN segment a PC of some form that will run whatever software (Home Assistant seems a good candidate) is deemed suitable to control everything.
The UFH will be done mainly on time .... mine is the slow response and lasting heat type, using about 4" thick concrete around the pipes.
Other parameters to the controller should be easy to add after it is all functional .... such as outside temp and wind which would impact on the duration required to heat the floors.

The other thing I wish to have is security camera control ..... maybe 3 cameras in use. I know I want to have these, but have not quite decided how best to make them easy manage and access etc etc.
It is for this use that I might need to buy a phone or tablet or such, and maybe incorporate a warning bell somewhere.
Living in a dead zone for mobile has meant that we never bothered with mobile phones much. There is one that is almost never used but taken out of house on trips ...... but it is not a smart phone, just an emergency calling device.

I realise I most likely will not get all the functions and security I want, but I guess aim high is the motto

Definitely my cameras will not be accessing the internet.
I will have ethernet connected cameras rather than using wireless.
Video stored locally, and backed up.
Yes it is more hassle on the surface, but as the cameras have to be powered anyway then the extra wiring is not a big deal IMO, but security is more easily managed and assured.

All this is a long term project over the next 6 or 8 months I hope.
I intend to get the hardware and maybe do a temporary software set up, so I become familiar with things before I deploy.
Of course that time scale is depending on outside factors .... such as builders/renovators appearing and working to proposed schedule and price.

I live in hope!

Please pick holes in my proposed set up so that I can take account of changes now.
I am completely new to this so quite likely I am making false assumptions or other mistakes.

Thanks.

15-04-2019 12:49pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Yes I am aware I can use an external relay to switch heavy loads.

Ok.

I was not aware until today that the total load of a 4 channel unit was only 16 Amp while each individual has a 10 Amp rating.

No offence intended but if you are working with mains voltage checking the loads (in terms of current and voltage) that a component can safely carry is a fundamental. Failure to do so can result become in a property damage / injury or worse!

When dealing with 230VAC in a domestic installation the National Rules for Electrical Installations, ET101:2008 apply. This is not optional, it is a legal requirement. That means that no assumptions should be made for any conductor or component in terms of current carrying capacity.

Without that info it would have been easy to try switching 4 x 5amp loads and exceed the overall rating.

Then you would have been proceeding without due diligence. This is part of the reason that from a legal perspective work such as this must be carried out by a Registered Electrical Contractor. When completed this work must be tested with calibrated test equipment and certified.

You can get away with a lot more when you are mucking about with 5 volts, mains voltage is potentially lethal, as such should be treated accordingly.

Apologies if I have offended, that is not my intention.

Johnboy1951 · 15-04-2019 1:06pm

2011 wrote: »

Ok.

No offence intended but if you are working with mains voltage checking the loads (in terms of current and voltage) that a component can safely carry is a fundamental. Failure to do so can result become in a property damage / injury or worse!

When dealing with 230VAC in a domestic installation the National Rules for Electrical Installations, ET101:2008 apply. This is not optional, it is a legal requirement. That means that no assumptions should be made for any conductor or component in terms of current carrying capacity.

Then you would have been proceeding without due diligence. This is part of the reason that from a legal perspective work such as this must be carried out by a Registered Electrical Contractor. When completed this work must be tested with calibrated test equipment and certified.

You can get away with a lot more when you are mucking about with 5 volts, mains voltage is potentially lethal, as such should be treated accordingly.

Apologies if I have offended, that is not my intention.

No offence taken.
I am well aware of the the dangers and requirements of handling mains electricity and reasonably familiar with the regulations.

My intent in posting was to highlight the rated max load as I had not seen it mentioned in this thread for that 4ch. device. It would be easy for someone to make an assumption that the combined channels would have the same load bearing capabilities as four separate units.

It was posted for information purposes for those who might read the thread.
You seem to be drawing some conclusions from that post that are not applicable.

I was investigating ..... yes doing due diligence .... the capabilities of the hardware suggested to me.
I simply passed on some information that had not previously been highlighted that I recalled.

15-04-2019 1:30pm

^^^ Fair enough. Points well made.

I spend a lot of my time designing electrical control systems (in the industrial sector) for a living. When considering using a new control device this is one of the first things I look at. I would consider 16A to be quite a high rating for a unit such as this. Even if the loads (individually and collectively) were under the rating of the device best practice would be to use relays / contactors for a variety of reasons.

Best of luck with it.

Johnboy1951 · 15-04-2019 1:45pm

2011 wrote: »

^^^ Fair enough. Points well made.

I spend a lot of my time designing electrical control systems (in the industrial sector) for a living. When considering using a new control device this is one of the first things I look at. I would consider 16A to be quite a high rating for a unit such as this. Even if the loads (individually and collectively) were under the rating of the device best practice would be to use relays / contactors for a variety of reasons.

Best of luck with it.

I would take a different approach ...... my personal intention would be to not load any contact or device to more than 50% to 60% of its stated rating, considering the low cost of the Sonoff devices.
I have no reason to take such a conservative approach, except prudence, as I have not seen anything that indicates weak builds on these devices.

Dr4gul4 · 15-04-2019 1:48pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Thanks that esphome is on my 'to read' list ..... was reading a bit about it yesterday.
Do you use it?

Not as of yet I do not, and the main reason for this was I had all of my established devices set up for HA autodiscovery via MQTT. But I did run in to an annoying issue with MQTT of late, and though about swapping over.

It may happen in the future.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I was looking at the 4 ch units rather than the Pro version.
Is there a reason I should consider the Pro?

Inching maybe ? I dont recall the main differences off hand .

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The UFH will be done mainly on time .... mine is the slow response and lasting heat type, using about 4" thick concrete around the pipes.
Other parameters to the controller should be easy to add after it is all functional .... such as outside temp and wind which would impact on the duration required to heat the floors.

Now from experience I can tell you that heating based on time alone especially UFH may not give you the best return.

The overarching premise of UFH is, heat the floor, when the in room thermo says it's X degrees close the actuator.

If you open the actuator based on time frame and the room is say 18 degrees, run it for 4 hours you could upend with a room thats 22 degrees, couple that with solar gain ( even in winter) and you may have a sticky situation.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The other thing I wish to have is security camera control ..... maybe 3 cameras in use. I know I want to have these, but have not quite decided how best to make them easy manage and access etc etc.
It is for this use that I might need to buy a phone or tablet or such, and maybe incorporate a warning bell somewhere.
Living in a dead zone for mobile has meant that we never bothered with mobile phones much. There is one that is almost never used but taken out of house on trips ...... but it is not a smart phone, just an emergency calling device.

I have a similar concept in mind here, but may complete some of it with one wireless camera..
POE camera's Hikvision, backed with Blueiris should provide what you require, and now HA has streaming capabilities and Blue iris has alert zone ability.
Maybe include a google home or an alexa for the door bell( alert) portion.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

All this is a long term project over the next 6 or 8 months I hope.
I intend to get the hardware and maybe do a temporary software set up, so I become familiar with things before I deploy.
Of course that time scale is depending on outside factors .... such as builders/renovators appearing and working to proposed schedule and price.
I live in hope!

6-8 months is a good time frame here, Maybe start with a Pi3b+ and see how you get on with HA, one word of warning as i've recently discovered, SDcards suffer in pi's and i've had one fail on me already, 6 months in to my deployment. always backup, and always keep a spare sd card

15-04-2019 2:00pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I would take a different approach ...... my personal intention would be to not load any contact or device to more than 50% to 60% of its stated rating, considering the low cost of the Sonoff devices.

Nothing wrong with that either. I have done this myself.

I have no reason to take such a conservative approach, except prudence, as I have not seen anything that indicates weak builds on these devices.

Taking this approach has other advantages, for example the relays can provide dray contacts for feedback signals, hard wired interlocks are now possible, other circuits can be switched at the same time, ease of integration for manual override switches etc....

Johnboy1951 · 15-04-2019 2:32pm

Dr4gul4 wrote: »

Not as of yet I do not, and the main reason for this was I had all of my established devices set up for HA autodiscovery via MQTT. But I did run in to an annoying issue with MQTT of late, and though about swapping over.

It may happen in the future.

Maybe you could elaborate on that difficulty you encountered?
MQTT is one of the options I was contemplating .... at least for some functions ... with esphome used for others

Inching maybe ? I dont recall the main differences off hand .

OK, thanks. Not sure what I would use it for in my proposed set up.

Now from experience I can tell you that heating based on time alone especially UFH may not give you the best return.

The overarching premise of UFH is, heat the floor, when the in room thermo says it's X degrees close the actuator.

If you open the actuator based on time frame and the room is say 18 degrees, run it for 4 hours you could upend with a room thats 22 degrees, couple that with solar gain ( even in winter) and you may have a sticky situation.

Several things affect this way of looking at it.
The temperature of the return flow of each loop (or group of loops) is easily monitored. As the return temp approaches a desired temp for the floor the actuator can be closed.
Desired temperature is dependent on room use and individual preferences so some time is spent achieving the best compromise, after which it is set.

Monitoring outside temp and wind direction and speed can be used to tweak settings.
I find that high wind will tend to strip heat from a room more quickly than extremely low outside temperature and no wind.

Yes solar heating into the floor during Winter is not something that can be predicted. But that applies regardless the setup.

I have a similar concept in mind here, but may complete some of it with one wireless camera..
POE camera's Hikvision, backed with Blueiris should provide what you require, and now HA has streaming capabilities and Blue iris has alert zone ability.
Maybe include a google home or an alexa for the door bell( alert) portion.

I have been testing one camera (inside window looking out) with Xeoma and have been quite pleased with the results.
No doubt it needs a little more control but the movement detection is good and reliable.
I also need to test out Shinobi when I get around to it, as I think this might suit me.

I have (I think) decided against POE ... will do a one time wiring job for the cameras and then be able to use whatever device I wish to attach it to. The wiring will be terminated in the media press from where I can distribute power as well as the ethernet cable.

6-8 months is a good time frame here, Maybe start with a Pi3b+ and see how you get on with HA, one word of warning as i've recently discovered, SDcards suffer in pi's and i've had one fail on me already, 6 months in to my deployment. always backup, and always keep a spare sd card

I think I might be being a bit optimistic with my time-frame

I am not known for getting things done on time!
I definitely won't buy a R-Pi3 for the purpose. I do not consider them great value TBH when all necessary parts are added.

I had intended to use my i5 NUC for the purpose, but unfortunately recent lightening strike put paid to that idea!

I would be more comfortable with a SFF used Intel x86_64 PC, or I might consider this
https://www.hardkernel.com/blog-2/odroid-n2/
In the meantime I have an unused PC here with an i3 .... big and bulky but capable.
I also have an old single core Celeron laptop but doubt that would suffice in the long term.

As is obvious I have not made any final decision on that yet ..... am open to further suggestions

Thanks for your feedback!

Dr4gul4 · 15-04-2019 2:51pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Maybe you could elaborate on that difficulty you encountered?

As i've been runing HA for a few months it's also evolved a bit over this time, going from a hardcoded entry in a yaml file, to being fully integrated into the Hass.io OS.
Part of this was not every happy when they updated MQTT to 4.1 for me and several others at least.

The issue was all devices could not talk to the MQTT broker, even with correct creds provided, I repeatedly received socket disconnect error's

Once clean install later, and some choice restoring of settings /addons etc and I was up and running with a clean install.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Several things affect this way of looking at it.
The temperature of the return flow of each loop (or group of loops) is easily monitored. As the return temp approaches a desired temp for the floor the actuator can be closed.
Desired temperature is dependent on room use and individual preferences so some time is spent achieving the best compromise, after which it is set.

Monitoring outside temp and wind direction and speed can be used to tweak settings.
I find that high wind will tend to strip heat from a room more quickly than extremely low outside temperature and no wind.

Yes solar heating into the floor during Winter is not something that can be predicted. But that applies regardless the setup.

If you close the actuator when the return temp hits say, 35 degrees you're closing off the loop fully and no longer heating the room. you have now stationary water sitting at 35 degrees for a small period of time.

What's you're heat source for the UFH ?

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I also need to test out Shinobi when I get around to it, as I think this might suit me.

I've heard this mentioned, but as of yet it's not something i've looked at, could be good

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I have (I think) decided against POE ... will do a one time wiring job for the cameras and then be able to use whatever device I wish to attach it to. The wiring will be terminated in the media press from where I can distribute power as well as the ethernet cable.

Will all camera's come with power connections in the future for upgrade? It's ahrd to say of course, but I'd perfer Cat5e/ 6 and a POE switch. changing camera's becomes less of an issue.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I had intended to use my i5 NUC for the purpose, but unfortunately recent lightening strike put paid to that idea!

Looked at these recently, but it doesn't really fill a gap i have right now, Might consolidate some hardware soon in to a new mini server and put HA on there as a VM. but ! those nuc's are nice .

Expect to chop and change, be frustrated and elated. I fear it's all part of a custom centralized solution.

Johnboy1951 · 15-04-2019 6:14pm

Dr4gul4 wrote: »

As i've been runing HA for a few months it's also evolved a bit over this time, going from a hardcoded entry in a yaml file, to being fully integrated into the Hass.io OS.
Part of this was not every happy when they updated MQTT to 4.1 for me and several others at least.

The issue was all devices could not talk to the MQTT broker, even with correct creds provided, I repeatedly received socket disconnect error's

Once clean install later, and some choice restoring of settings /addons etc and I was up and running with a clean install.

Ah!
An update

If you close the actuator when the return temp hits say, 35 degrees you're closing off the loop fully and no longer heating the room. you have now stationary water sitting at 35 degrees for a small period of time.

What's you're heat source for the UFH ?

Not so ....... but no longer heating the floor ..... which is essentially one very large storage heater. A heated 4" slab of concrete the size of the room. It emits warmth for a few days if not heated and the room temp will gradually fall away.

Oil burner is the heat source.
I had considered earth loops etc. but could not justify the cost without guarantee of efficiency or indeed that it would even be fitted correctly.
At least with oil boilers most plumbers know their stuff

At the time the air to water systems were not efficient, although I believe they have improved in the last few years.

I've heard this mentioned, but as of yet it's not something i've looked at, could be good

I had been thinking of this for cameras
https://shinobi.video/docs/

It seems there is a community plugin for Hassio which I was unaware of
https://github.com/hassio-addons/addon-shinobi

Will all camera's come with power connections in the future for upgrade? It's ahrd to say of course, but I'd perfer Cat5e/ 6 and a POE switch. changing camera's becomes less of an issue.

If not then a simple adapter will inject the power into the ethernet cable from a power source in the media press for whichever camera might require it.

Looked at these recently, but it doesn't really fill a gap i have right now, Might consolidate some hardware soon in to a new mini server and put HA on there as a VM. but ! those nuc's are nice .

Expect to chop and change, be frustrated and elated. I fear it's all part of a custom centralized solution.

NUCs are costly and I won't be going back, while at the same time near impossible to work on because of form factor.
I guess the high cost is mostly related to reduction in size and as that won't bother me in the media press then a USFF used PC should do what I want.

I don't change easily, but I spend an inordinate amount of time researching and testing before I commit, so it is rare for me to need to change (SO FAR

) That is my excuse for my tardiness!

Dr4gul4 · 16-04-2019 9:58am

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Not so ....... but no longer heating the floor ..... which is essentially one very large storage heater. A heated 4" slab of concrete the size of the room. It emits warmth for a few days if not heated and the room temp will gradually fall away.

Oil burner is the heat source.

If there's one piece of advice I can offer here, it's that i have the same set up, and yes the slab holds heat for a day or so, but of course that depends on insulation,and air tightness etc.

If i had better of both, i'd swap to a Heat pump tbh. but thats outside the scope of this discussion i guess.

I'll be interested to hear how it goes, im sure with enough time and diligence it's possible to factor in weather, winds etc, and adjust the length of time a loop is open. but with out a room thermostate you may find you're heating a slab blind.

Johnboy1951 · 16-04-2019 1:49pm

Dr4gul4 wrote: »

If there's one piece of advice I can offer here, it's that i have the same set up, and yes the slab holds heat for a day or so, but of course that depends on insulation,and air tightness etc.

If i had better of both, i'd swap to a Heat pump tbh. but thats outside the scope of this discussion i guess.

I'll be interested to hear how it goes, im sure with enough time and diligence it's possible to factor in weather, winds etc, and adjust the length of time a loop is open. but with out a room thermostate you may find you're heating a slab blind.

Yes we have really gone off topic

The heat pump is one thing .... but the heat source is what I was not convinced about.
At the time the air to water was not very efficient, especially in Winter when needed most.
If I had a good body of water close by (lake or large stream) I would have been tempted by that.
Underground was considered and dismissed for reasons I not do not recall.
Drilling for a 'well' of water was considered ... seriously ... but ongoing maintenance was awkward and problems with grit coming up were difficult to deal with.
As piped gas is not available to me, and I did not fancy storing it on site, I continued with oil and got a more efficient boiler.

On the matter of how much heat to give the floor .... knowing the usual use of each room a very close guess can be made without any measurements.
After that it is a matter of tweaking it.

I am unsure how good the wind & outside temp measurement will be in that tweaking ...... I might never need to bother

Dr4gul4 · 16-04-2019 2:01pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Yes we have really gone off topic
The heat pump is one thing .... but the heat source is what I was not convinced about.
At the time the air to water was not very efficient, especially in Winter when needed most.
If I had a good body of water close by (lake or large stream) I would have been tempted by that.
Underground was considered and dismissed for reasons I not do not recall.
Drilling for a 'well' of water was considered ... seriously ... but ongoing maintenance was awkward and problems with grit coming up were difficult to deal with.
As piped gas is not available to me, and I did not fancy storing it on site, I continued with oil and got a more efficient boiler.

On the matter of how much heat to give the floor .... knowing the usual use of each room a very close guess can be made without any measurements.
After that it is a matter of tweaking it.

I am unsure how good the wind & outside temp measurement will be in that tweaking ...... I might never need to bother

To bring our topic slightly back on track, with UFH there is or was a process devises called "step back" where by, in a 24 hour period, you allow 8 hours for cool down, and 16 for heating, this ensuring a constant average heat within the block.

It's actually very similar to what your proposing, and fully viable via the sonoff 4 chan device

Johnboy1951 · 16-04-2019 2:07pm

Dr4gul4 wrote: »

To bring our topic slightly back on track, with UFH there is or was a process devises called "step back" where by, in a 24 hour period, you allow 8 hours for cool down, and 16 for heating, this ensuring a constant average heat within the block.

It's actually very similar to what your proposing, and fully viable via the sonoff 4 chan device

Thanks, I had not heard of that "step back" or if I did failed to associate it correctly.
Any relevant links available?

On average my floors need 2 hours heating .... depends on room use and other factors of course.
Need an extra boost at odd times.

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