The Jimbo Slice memorial thread, feat Nate Dogg - The new Off Topic thread

Mellor

LincolnHawk wrote: »

He's training for elite level strength, injuries happen. Arm chair analysis that he's overtraining is ridiculous

He was referring to Clarence's own analysis of his training. No armchairs involved...

Clarence Kennedy wrote:

So out of my anger I continued to train heavy which was obviously extremely stupid but I was young and inexperienced in the world of weightlifting and didn’t understand the consequences.

I remember a few days after the comp I squatted 240kg 3×3, followed by 5×2. and during that time I was so overtrained that I had insomnia for almost 2 months straight.

...but wtf does he know

ixus

LincolnHawk wrote: »

He's training for elite level strength, injuries happen. Arm chair analysis that he's overtraining is ridiculous

There's no armchair analysis. He referenced it himself and I simply referenced other elite athletes who discussed over training themselves.

ixus

MightyMandarin wrote: »

I think he realises this is where he went wrong, now, according to his interview with ATG before. I wouldn't blame him for what he did though, as he was young, didn't really have a coach and was frustrated as he needed funding, but needed results to get that, and when he did badly at competitions, decided he needed to train extra harder to make sure he'd get the funding he needed.

No, certainly no blame. He had/has the desire along with ability which has to be admired. For me, it is the surprise that the ability wasn't nurtured. But then, when I hear how the athletes in athletics are treated, I shouldn't be.

Has me asking the question, at what point does less become more? And, how does an elite level trainer in any sport recognise that without guidance?

DylanJM

ixus wrote: »

Has me asking the question, at what point does less become more? And, how does an elite level trainer in any sport recognise that without guidance?

They don't usually. Athletes will nearly always have a tendency towards doing too much, that's why good coaches are so important.

Some athletes do however learn how to train themselves eventually either through educating themselves or through a process of trial and error. Which Clarence has clearly done at this stage. No doubt having a high level coach at the beginning may have prevented him training until he banjaxed his knees. If he had been an athlete in a more weightlifting focused country with all the facilities and resources in place to develop high level weightlifters then things would have played out differently I imagine.

MightyMandarin

DylanJM wrote: »

If he had been an athlete in a country with a more weightlifting focused country with all the facilities and resources in place to develop high level weightlifters then things would have played out differently I imagine.

I think this is the thing that impresses me most about Clarence. He's obviously a genetic beast but to be at the level he's at, snatching 180@97kg while training part-time on holidays, it's incredible that this is all down to him and a GAA hall in Tralee basically.

Even though he's little interest in competing ever again, part of me thinks the whole situation could've been so much different had the ISC recognised that he had the potential to be a world-class athlete (which is something this country rarely possesses in olympic sports) and given him the necessary funds and guidance to help him succeed even more. It's similar to how our boxers were under-resourced for years despite having great success, while athletics got plenty of funding but we won **** all. It's a controversial idea, but focusing resources on athletes who have the best chance of winning medals is what the ISC should always prioritise and I think with Clarence they really missed out on a gem.

LincolnHawk

I armchair commented, but happy to be enlightened

DylanJM

MightyMandarin wrote: »

I think this is the thing that impresses me most about Clarence. He's obviously a genetic beast but to be at the level he's at, snatching 180@97kg while training part-time on holidays, it's incredible that this is all down to him and a GAA hall in Tralee basically.

Even though he's little interest in competing ever again, part of me thinks the whole situation could've been so much different had the ISC recognised that he had the potential to be a world-class athlete (which is something this country rarely possesses in olympic sports) and given him the necessary funds and guidance to help him succeed even more. It's similar to how our boxers were under-resourced for years despite having great success, while athletics got plenty of funding but we won **** all. It's a controversial idea, but focusing resources on athletes who have the best chance of winning medals is what the ISC should always prioritise and I think with Clarence they really missed out on a gem.

In fairness, I imagine he would have been in line some funding after his medal in 2013 but he had to take a break due to injury. Even with funding it's unlikely that he would have been able to compete on the same level as athletes from other country's due to their PED usage. As a natural lifter getting a medal at junior European level is one thing but getting a medal at senior Euro/World level is a whole different ball game. Although that may change if they actually start to take clamping down on drugs seriously. It sort of already is as we are starting to see some athletes from traditionally stricter tested countries snag the odd medal here and there. More commonly on the women's side.

MightyMandarin

DylanJM wrote: »

In fairness, I imagine he would have been in line some funding after his medal in 2013 but he had to take a break due to injury. Even with funding it's unlikely that he would have been able to compete on the same level as athletes from other country's due to their PED usage. As a natural lifter getting a medal at junior European level is one thing but getting a medal at senior Euro/World level is a whole different ball game. Although that may change if they actually start to take clamping down on drugs seriously. It sort of already is as we are starting to see some athletes from traditionally stricter tested countries snag the odd medal here and there. More commonly on the women's side.

This is absolutely true, however as you mentioned there are exceptions and they're not just at bronze or silver medal level either. Berny Matam won Gold at Euro's and he's from France, who wouldn't be a particularly 'suspect country' usually. I imagine the same would go for Mirco Scarantino in the 56's aswell, but I of course could be wrong with this western european bias.

jive

At the risk of getting an almighty moderator slap on the wrist, everyone winning medals at an elite level is using regardless of country they represent. It's a sad reality but reality nonetheless

DylanJM

jive wrote: »

At the risk of getting an almighty moderator slap on the wrist, everyone winning medals at an elite level is using regardless of country they represent. It's a sad reality but reality nonetheless

That's just not true. While a lot are on PEDs, there are medalists out there that are clean and with better testing methods being introduced they are becoming more common every year.

jive

DylanJM wrote: »

That's just not true. While a lot are on PEDs, there are medalists out there that are clean and with better testing methods being introduced they are becoming more common every year.

I want to believe

Mellor

DylanJM wrote: »

That's just not true. While a lot are on PEDs, there are medalists out there that are clean and with better testing methods being introduced they are becoming more common every year.

They're are probably some that are clean. But I don't think anyone can say with confidence that X or Y is 100% clean. You just do t know what has happened behind closed doors.
As a cliched example, Lance Armstrong passed tests for years. And didn't get caught for failing a test for EPO or steroids - even though he was on them his whole career.
The testers are still playing catch up.

Mr. CooL ICE

Lads, there's a 1-day sale on adidas.ie with a savage deal on Powerlift.3s here. I'd get them but they're out of my size. If you apply EXTRA20 at the checkout, you'll basically get a pair for €40

Alf Veedersane

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

Lads, there's a 1-day sale on adidas.ie with a savage deal on Powerlift.3s here. I'd get them but they're out of my size. If you apply EXTRA20 at the checkout, you'll basically get a pair for €40

Y u do dis?

Mr. CooL ICE

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Y u do dis?

Your closet soon:

DylanJM

Mellor wrote: »

They're are probably some that are clean. But I don't think anyone can say with confidence that X or Y is 100% clean. You just do t know what has happened behind closed doors.
As a cliched example, Lance Armstrong passed tests for years. And didn't get caught for failing a test for EPO or steroids - even though he was on them his whole career.
The testers are still playing catch up.

Of course you can't, but you can't just say everyone is on something either. You can't ever be 100% but you can get a pretty good idea of whether someone is using or not by looking at their nationality, dynamics of results, competition history, physique, appearance, etc.

USA lifters medal every year at the Pan Ams (their equivalent of the Europeans) while having probably the strictest out of competition testing of any country thanks to USADA.

MightyMandarin

For a while now there's been talk of these 'secret videos' of Ilya going around, which Nat Arem (Hookgrip lad) had seen on someone's phone at Grozny, back when Ilya C+J'd 246. All of a sudden, Ilya decided to send them to Nat yesterday.

245 is probably the biggest squat jerk ever, and FML that 250 attempt was so close. I honestly can't understand how easy that 250 clean was.

Brian?

Mellor wrote: »

They're are probably some that are clean. But I don't think anyone can say with confidence that X or Y is 100% clean. You just do t know what has happened behind closed doors.
As a cliched example, Lance Armstrong passed tests for years. And didn't get caught for failing a test for EPO or steroids - even though he was on them his whole career.
The testers are still playing catch up.

And now myself and Lance have the same number of Tour de France wins. I think that's an endorsement rather than an indictment of the system.

I know what you're saying. But the vast majority of serious cycling fans always believed Lance was dirty. He went from a middling roleur to winning the Tour. We all knew he was doping, we all knew the testing was failing.

Things are different now, especially in cycling. There are no more "miracles", the main men progress gradually and are talked about for years before they start winning.

I believe most properly tested sports are cleaner than ever. It's the sports we never see fails in that I'm really suspicious of. When was the last time a Rugby player failed a test for T or HGH? American football, soccer and GAA fall into this too.

It's the sports that people perceive as the dirtiest that are the most regularly tested these days, while soccer, rugby supporters stick their head in the sand. And sometime are vocal about the dangers of creatine!!

jive

Brian? wrote: »

It's the sports that people perceive as the dirtiest that are the most regularly tested these days, while soccer, rugby supporters stick their head in the sand. And sometime are vocal about the dangers of creatine!!

Yeah that's exactly it, positive tests equals perception that the sport is riddled. Do crap testing, get no positives and everyone will perceive it to be clean. You can be sure where there is money to be made people will park their morals and ethics at the door; unless of course we believe that rugby / soccer are morally superior and so ultra gentlemanly that they couldn't possibly dope!

There's no real incentive for sporting bodies to catch cheats, in fact it damages the perception of the sport and this has financial ramifications then

JJayoo

Saturday was in the car all day
Sunday I decided to do a load of leg raises and sit-ups
Monday/today a few hours on a bus

My back feels in absolute bits now, hams aren't tight as I can put palms flat on the ground but the hip flexor stretch feels like I will literally rip myself.

I'm kinda drunk but moral of the story sitting down and fucccking sit-ups are assholes

whippet

I just can't under stand how the body functions .. I had a horrible day yesterday .. spent about 7 hours driving all over the country and ate like crap for the day.

Had a heavy squat session planned last night and had to drag myself to the gym ... and ended up having one of the best squat sessions i've ever had. If I spent the day minding myself and eating right i don't think I would have felt as good about it !!

ford2600

Brian? wrote: »

I know what you're saying. But the vast majority of serious cycling fans always believed Lance was dirty. He went from a middling roleur to winning the Tour. We all knew he was doping, we all knew the testing was failing.

Things are different now, especially in cycling. There are no more "miracles", the main men progress gradually and are talked about for years before they start winning.

As Kimmage said yesterday on Today fm the best we can say is we don't know.

On miracles, is Froome not exactly that? Hinault, Merckx, Fignon etc were seen as the future main men ever before they dominated the Tour. Froome was a non entity until he managed to drop a load of weight and yet lost no power....
there is the viral illness yarn I suppose.

Sky domestiques ever year can shell the other contenders in the high mountains; Landa would have dropped everyone bar Aru last week.

That Martin is competitive is a really good sign or its the worst. We just don't know.

If GAA has a problem its at an individual level. Culture of inter county panels isn't the best place to have a go at omerta without it after blowing up by now.

Rugby would be the one I'd be most concerned about.

No appetite with either GAA or IRFU to get ahead of it though.

Blacktie.

whippet wrote: »

I just can't under stand how the body functions .. I had a horrible day yesterday .. spent about 7 hours driving all over the country and ate like crap for the day.

Had a heavy squat session planned last night and had to drag myself to the gym ... and ended up having one of the best squat sessions i've ever had. If I spent the day minding myself and eating right i don't think I would have felt as good about it !!

Yeah this happens to me occasionally as well. And it's not even just lifting either. I upped my calories from losing about 0.5kg a week at 2100 to 2500. Down another half kilo this week... Bodies are weird.

Brian?

ford2600 wrote: »

As Kimmage said yesterday on Today fm the best we can say is we don't know.

On miracles, is Froome not exactly that? Hinault, Merckx, Fignon etc were seen as the future main men ever before they dominated the Tour. Froome was a non entity until he managed to drop a load of weight and yet lost no power....
there is the viral illness yarn I suppose.

Sky domestiques ever year can shell the other contenders in the high mountains; Landa would have dropped everyone bar Aru last week.

That Martin is competitive is a really good sign or its the worst. We just don't know.

If GAA has a problem its at an individual level. Culture of inter county panels isn't the best place to have a go at omerta without it after blowing up by now.

Rugby would be the one I'd be most concerned about.

No appetite with either GAA or IRFU to get ahead of it though.

Froome appears dodgy until to you look into his background. He had a blood parasite that limited his performance, you can draw a direct line from the diagnosis of it to increased performance.

The Sky domestiques take turns in dominating the tour. They are performance managed to peak at different times in he Tour and usually finish way off the top 10. Landa is an exception so far, but we haven't hit he Alps yet.

I agree there is probably no systemic problem in GAA. But no one is testing positive? Seems beyond belief.

I don't believe there are doping programs in Rugby either, but it strains credulity that there are no bad apples.

jive

Brian? wrote: »

I agree there is probably no systemic problem in GAA. But no one is testing positive? Seems beyond belief.

I don't believe there are doping programs in Rugby either, but it strains credulity that there are no bad apples.

Yeah, no doubt there's intercounty players who are/have knowingly doped in the past but, on the face of it, there doesn't appear to be a significant issue with doping there. As it's amateur the lack of financial incentive probably helps; if your livelihood depended on it you'd be more likely to justify doping to yourself.

Rugby is a sport predominantly based on size and power. Rugby league has very clear and serious issues. Rugby Union's day will come but, like soccer, there's no appetite to clean it up.

Mellor

Brian? wrote: »

Froome appears dodgy until to you look into his background. He had a blood parasite that limited his performance, you can draw a direct line from the diagnosis of it to increased performance.

1. Infect oneself with parasite.
2. Get on the powersauce
3. "Discover" parasite and immediately eradicate with help from team doctor
4. Bingo. Plausibility juice boost...

whippet

jive wrote: »

Yeah, no doubt there's intercounty players who are/have knowingly doped in the past but, on the face of it, there doesn't appear to be a significant issue with doping there. As it's amateur the lack of financial incentive probably helps; if your livelihood depended on it you'd be more likely to justify doping to yourself.

Amateur status isn't really a disincentive to juicing ... when you see the numbers of lifters and general strength trainers juicing it's crazy ... people spending a small fortune on juice and working mediocre jobs ... just as bad as lads spending most of their wages in the pub

jive

whippet wrote: »

Amateur status isn't really a disincentive to juicing ... when you see the numbers of lifters and general strength trainers juicing it's crazy ... people spending a small fortune on juice and working mediocre jobs ... just as bad as lads spending most of their wages in the pub

The general lifting population suffers from extreme narcissism in comparison to the average GAA player tho! There will always be cheats, I mentioned the financial aspect as they are not reliant on it to live whereas pro athletes are, easier to make the jump in that case

Alf Veedersane

Some people want to take a shortcut.
Some people want to make the cut.
Some people want to move to being more than also-rans.
Some people want to win.
Some people want to play on a level playing field.

In some or all of those instances, it may be a perception or a reality and some or all of those may apply to amateurs or professionals.

Brian?

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Some people want to take a shortcut.
Some people want to make the cut.
Some people want to move to being more than also-rans.
Some people want to win.
Some people want to play on a level playing field.

In some or all of those instances, it may be a perception or a reality and some or all of those may apply to amateurs or professionals.

Some folks'lll never eat a skunk
But then again, some folks'll
Like Cletus, the slack-jawed yokel
Most folks'll never lose a toe
But then again, some folks'll
Like Cletus, the slack-jawed yokel