1 Day ban from Cafe for innocuous post

Lovely Bloke

I've been given a one-day ban from the Cafe for quite an innocuous post.

It was a reality TV Show "You're a Migrant"

In the new EU Immigration Thread

Now, without even a yellow card to my name in that forum before, cutting straight to a ban seems a little rash.

I read and took note of the new posting rules in that thread in particular, here they are

##MOD NOTE##

This thread is to replace the previous Immigration thread

Given how off the rails previous threads on this topic have gone we have some rules for this new thread.

1. No Posts which incite hatred/violence.
2. No Newsdumping.
3. No sweeping generalisations.
4. No making claims without a reputable source to back up what you are referencing.


The overall Café Charter still applies. The above are just re-enforcements of that Charter.

This is an important topic that needs to be discussed. However is must be held in a mature and balanced fashion , up to now some have struggled to keep to the straight and narrow on this.

So - Please use this thread to discuss the issue freely , but anyone stepping out of line as per the above can expect immediate sanction , there won't be in thread warnings or suggestions from here on out.

I cannot work out which of those rules I breached.

Is it the

4. No making claims without a reputable source to back up what you are referencing.

I would have thought that obvious satire wouldn't be subject to sanction under that rule, there clearly isn't a reality TV competition going on in the Calais Jungle.

Anyway, why straight to a ban, why not a yellow or red card before? It mentions no "in-thread warnings", and that's not what I'm looking for here.

It doesn't state anything about hair-trigger bans.

Finally, and crucially, it DOES state that the overall Cafe charter still applies, which includes this line

Finally, remember to have fun but not at the expense of others please.

I'll come straight out and say that because of the ridiculous nature of one-day bans, it doesn't really fit in with the flowchart above, given the usual "give the mod time to reply" line that gets trotted out in here, by the time the mod has had a reasonable time to reply the ban will be lifted anyway, and I'd like to post in the Cafe today.

Lovely Bloke

Bump?

24 hours without a reply on a dispute of a 1-day ban is a pretty poor user experience.

I think 1 day bans shouldn't be allowed because of this. I realise all mods etc are volunteers, and to that end it is absolutely unfair that a user can be essentially punished without recourse.

Toots

Apologies for the delay on this Lovely Bloke, I'll feed it up the line and see if there's anything that can be done to address a one day ban more quickly. I think in this instance the best thing to do would have been to attempt to engage with the mod via PM. If you didn't get a response within a couple of hours, your best bet would be to PM one or more of the other forum mods, or else the Cmods. I know usually we'd say allow 24 hours for a response, but with a 1 day ban, understandably a faster turnaround is needed.

Lovely Bloke

Thanks a lot.

The thing is, it was already 2 hours into the 24 hour ban when I noticed it, 8pm, and as I also have a life outside this website it wasn't until 13.5 hours after the ban was applied I got a chance to come here and dispute it, that's over half the ban-time.

So what do we do now? Will I do the, frankly, ridiculous dance with the mod

- Will you remove the ban
- Nope, even if I could, I can't, it's passed
- I'll go to DRP so.

Can we short-circuit the process?

I mean if we allow a 24-hour period to elapse as a reasonable time for the mod to reply, it will then be Saturday, and so potentially Monday before any more responses in here. I certainly wouldn't expect you or any other CMod to reply at the weekend.

That will make the process 5 days long, at least, for a one day ban - seems silly to me.

You haven't even commented on my dispute, which I find a bit strange, to be honest.

Taltos

DRF's purpose to to challenge a card and or ban applied.
This is not the place to discuss the merits of the system that's a topic for a different forum. Please keep the posts on point to overturning the ban.

Please proceed with the flowchart above, open discussion with the mod and move from there. Duration of the bans has NO impact on this process.

Toots / Lovely bloke back to you.

Lovely Bloke

More needless red tape.

Where should I post then please, Admin?

I've PM'd the mod, but it's absolutely ridiculous, they are unable to lift expired bans.

It will be a silly, timewasting dance.

But hey-ho, if red tape and needless administration is the way of it I'll play along.

So, not wanting to post in the wrong place again, please direct me.

Taltos

If you really think this is silly time wasting red tape then why bother disputing the ban, clearly it's not.
Once this thread is resolved either to your favour or against you are free to open a thread in Feedback, but don't do so until you're done here.

Now, final time, lets keep this thread on point - disputing the ban applied for your innocuous post.

Lovely Bloke

Alright so, I've PMd the mod.


And just to point out, I don't think the DRP is silly time wasting red tape.

I was specifically referring to the need to contact the mod to overturn a ban they can't overturn, and get directed back here by the mod.

Taltos

Cheers for the clarification.
Will leave this now in the capable hands of the cmods and look forward to a speedy resolution.

Toots

Thanks Lovely Bloke, let me know what they say and we'll go from there.

Lovely Bloke

So the mod has said it's being discussed by Mods Cmods and Admins and I'll be gotten back to here.

Lovely Bloke

I'm going to go ahead and publish all PMs in the discussion since the ban, just to get to that stage. I don't mind this being done in the open, in fact I'd prefer it was.

I was only on mobile this morning.

Ban Message

Dear Lovely Bloke,

You have been banned from Politics Cafe for one day for Trolling.

This means you are posting in an intentionally provocative fashion in order to gain a reaction from other members. This is disruptive and causes stress to other members.
We don't want that here.

For more information please refer to the Boards.ie FAQ.

If you wish to appeal this ban you can see details on how to do so here.

Quin_Dub

Moderator Note

Warned in the OP

Your post:
Originally Posted by Lovely Bloke View Post
It was a reality TV Show "You're a Migrant"

My Reply

This is actually serious?

Amazing, one eyed modding.

I'm not surprised.

Mod

No reply

I start Thread here, advised to PM Mod again

Friday AM

So, I think this was an unwarranted ban, I didn't break the charter, nor the new rules in that particular thread.

Can you please lift my expired ban.

Thanks

Monday AM

Trying again, this will be my third message regarding this ban without reply.

So, I think this was an unwarranted ban, I didn't break the charter, nor the new rules in that particular thread.

Can you please lift my expired ban.

Thanks

Mod Reply - Monday AM

I have no ability to make any alterations - The only way is via the Dispute resolution process.

I replied to that, with the following, just outlining that I've been advised as above, the mod needs to address the ban before DRP can proceed. Monday AM

Ok thanks for that confirmation, however I think the process requires you to tell me whether you'd be willing to remove the ban, even though you can't.

Mod Reply - Tuesday AM

It's being discussed between the Mods/Cmods and Admins..

They'll get back to you via the DRP process.

And then I posted on this thread.

So, here we are back where we started last week, and no further along.

Toots

Apologies for the delay with this. Having discussed it with the Cafe mod team, they have agreed to retrospectively lift the ban and replace it with a yellow card. The comment, while seeming innocuous enough, couldn't be described as "mature and balanced discussion" which was specified in the opening post of the new EU Immigration Thread.

If this is agreeable to you, please let me know and I'll make the necessary changes.

Lovely Bloke

Then it's a pretty fine line I seem to have wandered over between

remember to have fun but not at the expense of others please.

As stated in the charter, and the new guidelines, which specifically stated, is not superseded by the new guidelines.

I don't believe I overstepped that line by posting an obviously satirical line about how people may have been chosen to join the group coming to Ireland.

A reality TV show is a plainly ridiculous suggestion, not to be taken seriously.

I don't believe I over stepped the mark, and therefore I do not agree that I should be subject to any permanently recorded sanction, no matter how trivial said sanction is deemed to be.

Let me be absolutely crystal clear here.

The reason I am disputing this so vehemently is because there doesn't seem to be any kind of statute of limitations on how far back the "powers that be" can look in to ones profile, or previous profiles, when deciding "enough is enough" and issuing seemingly random site bans when the fancy takes them, so I really would like my current profile to be absolutely clear of any permanent record of sanction for future reference. I've seen this happen numerous times, where previous cards and bans, no matter how long passed, are held up as evidence of "ongoing issues" with particular users.

What I've been offered here is basically a "plea bargain" - agree to a lesser "offence". No. I won't be doing that.

I don't believe I've done anything to warrant any kind of sanction, so I do not accept a yellow card.

Admin review please.

Toots

Fair enough, I'll flag this for review.

Taltos

OK I've now reviewed this.
Lovely Bloke - do you want to reconsider the offer that the Cmod and Mods have made?

Lovely Bloke

Without any more input? Do I get to hear the outcome of the review first? Seems a weird way of doing things.

Taltos

Let me be clear. When I post my decision that is it, there is no discussion here Lovely Bloke, you know that though.

Lovely Bloke

And that's fine, but to be honest I know what I'm expecting to happen, and it won't come as any surprise.

It would be nice to see the thinking around the decision though, instead of a one liner, if that is not forthcoming I can add it to my feedback which I'll be giving on this process.

So I'll be clear, I'm not going to consider entering any kind of "plea bargain" type of scenario, as I do not believe I have done anything to warrant sanction, no matter how trivial you Admins deem that sanction to be.

I'd like to hear the thought of Admin on this matter, instead of a trite one line "ruling". I can get that here, or ask again in Feedback I suppose.

Taltos

OK, your call.
First off let me address this idea of a "plea bargain" - we all know that such a claim is a disservice to the mods and cmods who discussed your ban. Irrespective of your ban being for 1 day, a month or longer the process for the cmods is the same - they are expected to give the same level of due diligence to the card being disputed. Claims of plea bargains, frankly offends my sensibilities and I view it as an attempt to blow smoke or similarly distract from the request or to similarly obfuscate the real topic at hand.

Anyway back to meat of your request. As you know from your time on boards we have to consider a few things. Simplifying things, firstly was mod action required and secondly was such action appropriate in light of any mitigating factors. I like reminding myself of these now and again to keep on an even keel.

So in reviewing first your post my initial reaction was frankly "woah" - why the ban? Being the Cafe it was a mod response I was not expecting, possibly more suitable for the main Politics forum or another no-nonsense forum. I thought, cool this will be an easy one to quickly overturn and then move on to the next request. But then I dug a bit deeper to see why such a post elicited a mod response and the clue was in the opening post.

Original opening post

So - Please use this thread to discuss the issue freely , but anyone stepping out of line as per the above can expect immediate sanction , there won't be in thread warnings or suggestions from here on out.

Since replaced with

So - Please use this thread to discuss the issue freely , but anyone stepping out of line as per the above can expect an immediate ban , there won't be in thread warnings or suggestions from here on out.

This and more warnings were added due to how the previous thread had become a mess of a thread, possibly intentionally by some posters, so by added clear and stricter guidelines this time around the mod team ensured that an adult and civil discussion could be held on the topic instead of the other option of just closing down all discussion.

Now you weren't the first to cross the line Lovely Bloke, the prior posters had received a Warning for their transgression and ideally at that time it would have been nice (but not mandatory) to see an on thread warning that from X point onwards further posts of a similar nature would now result in an infraction or ban which didn't happen and which is why on consideration the mods with the cmod offered to downgrade your card from a ban to a yellow, which you've rejected as is your right.
Again as you know if yellows aren't working then mods are expected to take whatever action they feel appropriate up to and including just closing discussions, the team chose to escalate mod actions to 1 day bans, which considering the warnings weren't working and from the experience of the previous thread neither would infractions was a sensible approach.
And that brings me to the second point, was the action appropriate at that time?
While I thank the cmod and mods for suggesting removing the ban and implementing a warning instead I don't think its appropriate based on the opening mod direction and on the decision to move to bans from warnings as clearly the yellow cards were totally ineffective in reminding posters like yourself to play nice in order to allow the discussion to progress instead of derailing it and forcing an eventual thread closure / deletion. Such decisions are made daily and while it might be best practice to post a mod warning that from X time onwards a minimum of a ban will apply that is not a mandatory requirement and I have to trust that mods knowing their forums and their posters make the best decision possible at any given time of the day or night. So ban stands, with a suggestion to the mod team to try to indicate on threads where an escalation in modding from yellows or reds to bans are now in effect.