So I went for another ICE - please don't hate me.

KCross

Oafley Jones wrote: »

How many chargers are available where you stop. Have you ever had to wait your turn?

I rarely use the public charging system. The vast majority (95+%) of my charging is from home and thats the case for most people.

Public charging is mainly used by those who are doing longer journeys. I've never had to queue for anything more than a few mins.

There is only one charger per site, which is a problem. If thats out of service or if someone has just started a charge when you arrive you need a plan B.

Queuing is rare enough except for a few hotspots where it happens regularly.

If you need to use the public charging regularly I'd say dont buy an EV, just yet.

KCross

NIMAN wrote: »

But thats the issue. People won't accept having to stop. 1 stop would be too many for most drivers, who want to get into the car and not get out til they hit Cork.

Having to stop twice simply won't wash with 95% of the car buying public.

Im not disagreeing with that point. I said its not acceptable. I'm calling bs on the 5hrs from Cork-Dublin.

For me, the current crop of EV's are an excellent 2nd car. I wouldnt recommend it for a one car household unless you never do more than 100km's a day.

We have 2 cars. The split was roughly 50/50 between them before the EV. Since we moved one to EV the split is probably now 70/30 to the EV. More and more of the driving is done in the EV and the long journeys are done in the diesel.

The savings are significant in both fuel and reduced servicing on the diesel.

NIMAN

Wasn't having a go at you, simply pointing out why people aren't buying into EVs just yet. They don't want to have to have a Plan B, to get stranded at a charger out of service, or have to stop on a long journey.

I fully understand how an EV could easily fit into most peoples lifestyles, probably including my own, but only started this thread as an example of why people are still picking ICE over EV.

zilog_jones

I could see how it could potentially take 5 hours to get from Dublin-Cork in a Leaf if you're unprepared and not familiar with the route. I know someone who bought a used Leaf in NI and drove to Cork and it was not an enjoyable experience (encountered out of service charger, etc.), but that's probably the worst case scenario - a particularly long journey combined with a totally unfamiliar car and unfamiliar method of powering it.

Long distance driving in current EVs does require more planning, and having to make backup plans. I guess that may seem like too much of an inconvenience to many, and seem like a downgrade from an ICE/hybrid. I usually make one stop going Cork-Dublin but not two, and maybe 20 mins max. I would be much more likely to go with an EV as my next car if I could do the same with that.

KCross

zilog_jones wrote: »

I could see how it could potentially take 5 hours to get from Dublin-Cork in a Leaf if you're unprepared and not familiar with the route. I know someone who bought a used Leaf in NI and drove to Cork and it was not an enjoyable experience (encountered out of service charger, etc.), but that's probably the worst case scenario - a particularly long journey combined with a totally unfamiliar car and unfamiliar method of powering it.

Did they mis-calculate and run out of power?
Cork-Dublin is a very easy route to drive. Its all motorway with plenty of chargers on route. I cant see how it would take anyone 5hrs unless it was a breakdown scenario.

zilog_jones wrote: »

I usually make one stop going Cork-Dublin but not two, and maybe 20 mins max. I would be much more likely to go with an EV as my next car if I could do the same with that.

Sounds like the Ioniq should be able to do that. We need unkel to go on a road trip first!

zulutango

NIMAN wrote: »

The fact that you feel you would need to hire a car once or twice a year is damning at present. Simply not good enough.

It's hardly damning, is it? I mean, if you have to hire a car twice in the year, that expense is very low compared with the savings from using an EV the rest of the time.

I don't have an EV, but I did get rid of my ICE 6 weeks ago. I just wasn't using it enough to justify the expense. So far, I've been able to get by walking, cycling and with public transport. As the weather improves and the evenings get longer, I will probably find myself needing a car but I expect that hiring one will be a good option when those situations arise.

Padraig Mor

NIMAN wrote: »

But thats the issue. People won't accept having to stop. 1 stop would be too many for most drivers, who want to get into the car and not get out til they hit Cork.

Having to stop twice simply won't wash with 95% of the car buying public.

You're correct - and this is the big, unnecessary, barrier to current generation EV uptake in Ireland. 95% won't accept having to stop to charge on a Dublin to Cork run - yet 95% of people don't do Dublin/Cork runs! Isn't it something like 80% of people do less than 50km per day? I've done 33000 km in my Leaf in 18 months so quite a bit more driving than average - yet I've never been stuck or caught out etc. Even 280km round trips have been fine with a bit of planning. I can easily count on one hand the number of times we've taken our other family car because the Leaf range was an issue.

bk

KCross wrote: »

Thats just bs and why people are afraid to move to EV with all the scare stories.

I've done Cork-Dublin in a 24kWh Leaf. It requires two stops. So, it adds about 45mins to the journey. If you are the type of person who stops once anyway on that journey it is really only one extra stop.

Im not saying that's acceptable. We'd all like to drive it without having to stop but the misinformation around EV's is just painful.

I based my comment off this thread and trip review (a few posts down):

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057456468

gabsdot40 said it took him 5 hours.

I also have to say that your 45minutes charging time is pretty meaningless statistic. It is meaningless if you are crawling along the motorway at 80km/h trying to save battery. Also it doesn't take into account the need to slow down and leave the motorway and find the charging point and plug it in, etc. twice.

The only meaningful number is the real a to b time. As in I left my front door in Dublin at 1pm and I arrived at 5pm or whatever. Then we can get a true view of what the journey is like.

BTW most people who regularly do Cork to Dublin don't stop at all. At 2.5 hours journey time, a stop isn't really needed. It is a pretty easy journey, nice road, not particularly stressful at all.

Lochlannach

Reading this one with interest...

We're currently looking at a 24KW Leaf for my wife - this should easily handle her 35KM each way commute from Kildare to Maynooth. Outside of that she doesn't do any longer trips usually - they're generally in my car.

I would love to go to an EV but I honestly can't see it happening until range goes well up. My commute would be fine at 50KM each way but that's it. I'm a kayaker and sometimes I need to bring a kayak on my commute and that would kill it. I also can't see an EV being much good for a 58KM trip across the Wicklow Gap on a Sunday morning with a kayak strapped to the roof! Additionally about once a month we do Kildare - West Cork or Kildare - Mayo, again often with a kayak attached for the Cork run.
I don't know what sort of range I'd need to cover that realistically. If it had sufficient range on battery to do my commute I'd consider a PHEV but the compromises aren't great.

bk

KCross wrote: »

For me, the current crop of EV's are an excellent 2nd car. I wouldnt recommend it for a one car household unless you never do more than 100km's a day.

That is very good of you to say, because there are some people on this forum who will swear blind that you can use an EV in every situation. I think it is important to be honest about it and not overstate the current abilities of EV's. All that will do is damage the image of EV's if people buy one too soon and it doesn't meet their needs.

KCross wrote: »

The savings are significant in both fuel and reduced servicing on the diesel.

But on the other hand the EV costs a lot more up front. A while ago I did the maths on it for myself and found it would take well over 10 years for the EV to pay back. It all depends on what your milage is. It ironically currently best suits people with long daily commutes, but not over 100km, who have a second car for longer trips.

Padraig Mor wrote: »

You're correct - and this is the big, unnecessary, barrier to current generation EV uptake in Ireland. 95% won't accept having to stop to charge on a Dublin to Cork run - yet 95% of people don't do Dublin/Cork runs! Isn't it something like 80% of people do less than 50km per day? I've done 33000 km in my Leaf in 18 months so quite a bit more driving than average - yet I've never been stuck or caught out etc. Even 280km round trips have been fine with a bit of planning. I can easily count on one hand the number of times we've taken our other family car because the Leaf range was an issue.

The problem with a statistic like 80% of people do 50km per day, is that it is an average. It doesn't take into account the few times a year that people do a trip to Cork or Galway, etc. Telling those people that they can't take their €30,000 car to do that trip reasonably and need to rent a car is insane.

Those people will reasonably say, nah it is ok mate, I'll buy a cheaper Diesel that will do the job just fine so instead.

Even though I hate the thought of Diesel and genuinely care about the environment, even I feel that way and will likely buy another Diesel for my next car

This is exactly what EV's need to do if they are going to gain mainstream acceptance, is match what even 30 year old cars can do!

KCross

bk wrote: »

I based my comment off this thread and trip review (a few posts down):

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057456468

gabsdot40 said it took him 5 hours.

I also have to say that your 45minutes charging time is pretty meaningless statistic. It is meaningless if you are crawling along the motorway at 80km/h trying to save battery. Also it doesn't take into account the need to slow down and leave the motorway and find the charging point and plug it in, etc. twice.

The only meaningful number is the real a to b time. As in I left my front door in Dublin at 1pm and I arrived at 5pm or whatever. Then we can get a true view of what the journey is like.

BTW most people who regularly do Cork to Dublin don't stop at all. At 2.5 hours journey time, a stop isn't really needed. It is a pretty easy journey, nice road, not particularly stressful at all.

He said he drove at 85kmh which is probably actually a real speed of 80kmh since the Leaf overreads the speed. Thats incredibly slow to be driving on a motorway and explains the 5hrs! Thats not normal or required.

I drive my Leaf the same as I used drive my diesels. On a motorway I drive it at 128kmh(which is a real world 120kmh).

The chargers are right off the motorway so from indicating to get off to plugging in is literally 2mins.

I still stand over my 45mins extra(worst case an hour). Drive the car at whatever speed you like you will still need to stop twice. So, if it normally takes you 2.5hrs in a diesel just add on 45mins. Less on the 30kWh Leaf as it charges faster.

If you get caught in a charging queue then all bets are off, of course. I'm not saying a Cork-Dublin trip is easy but it certainly isnt 5hrs (or at least it doesnt need to be).

bk

Lochlannach wrote: »

I would love to go to an EV but I honestly can't see it happening until range goes well up. My commute would be fine at 50KM each way but that's it. I'm a kayaker and sometimes I need to bring a kayak on my commute & I can't see an EV managing a 58KM trip across the Wicklow Gap on a Sunday morning with a kayak strapped to the roof! Additionally about once a month we do Kildare - West Cork or Kildare - Mayo, again often with a kayak attached for the Cork run.
I don't know what sort of range I'd need to cover that realistically. If it had sufficient range on battery to do my commute I'd consider a PHEV but the compromises aren't great.

Almost exactly the same as yourself here. Love outdoors and hiking, most weekend take trips to at least Wicklow Mountains, but often also to Galway, Mayo, Donegal, Mournes, Killarney, etc.

The truth is BEV's are just nowhere near being ready for people like you and me (sort of the Tesla S and X, but ridiculously expensive). Which is a pity, because people like us probably care greatly about the environment!

The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV second hand for the UK is an interesting option you should check out. a 4x4 SUV with lots of space would make it ideal for dragging a kayak into the mountains. While it also has a 50km battery range, which if you had a charger at work might allow you to do most of your daily commute on battery.

Seriously thinking about one of these myself.

The Kia Niro Hybrid is another one I'm considering.

KCross

bk wrote: »

That is very good of you to say, because there are some people on this forum who will swear blind that you can use an EV in every situation. I think it is important to be honest about it and not overstate the current abilities of EV's. All that will do is damage the image of EV's if people buy one too soon and it doesn't meet their needs.



But on the other hand the EV costs a lot more up front. A while ago I did the maths on it for myself and found it would take well over 10 years for the EV to pay back. It all depends on what your milage is. It ironically currently best suits people with long daily commutes, but not over 100km, who have a second car for longer trips.



The problem with a statistic like 80% of people do 50km per day, is that it is an average. It doesn't take into account the few times a year that people do a trip to Cork or Galway, etc. Telling those people that they can't take their €30,000 car to do that trip reasonably and need to rent a car is insane.

Those people will reasonably say, nah it is ok mate, I'll buy a cheaper Diesel that will do the job just fine so instead.

Even though I hate the thought of Diesel and genuinely care about the environment, even I feel that way and will likely buy another Diesel for my next car

This is exactly what EV's need to do if they are going to gain mainstream acceptance, is match what even 30 year old cars can do!

I agree with all of that except "But on the other hand the EV costs a lot more up front."

I dont think the Leaf costs more(or at least significantly more) up front. Its hard to get an apples to apples comparison. Its a €25k ish car. Would you say thats "a lot more"?

There are some really good 2nd hand ones that will cost you very little on depreciation with all the upsides of reduced fuel bills.

It does depend on your usage profile though, as you said.

bk

KCross, you still didn't give the real a to b time which is all that matters to me to be honest.

I'd love if someone used a GPS app on their phone to record the journey and post it so that we could get a real view of the journey time.

I seriously doubt it take you just 3h 15m to do the journey. I suspect it is at least 4 hours.

KCross

bk wrote: »

KCross, you still didn't give the real a to b time which is all that matters to me to be honest.

I'd love if someone used a GPS app on their phone to record the journey and post it so that we could get a real view of the journey time.

I seriously doubt it take you just 3h 15m to do the journey. I suspect it is at least 4 hours.

I genuinely cant remember (I can hear you laughing!) but you miss the point.

How long it takes is simply two things.... how fast you drive and how long you spend charging. I'm telling you how long it takes to charge (45-60max) and how fast you drive is your business. I drive at motorway speed.

I know a trip for me from Cork to Dublin (Red Cow) is about 2hrs 15mins in a diesel without stopping. I think the Leaf was just a bit more than 3hrs but I dont remember exactly. Trust me, its not 5hrs, nor 4 either. Certainly no more than 3.5hrs and I believe I did it quicker than that.

There must be someone else on here that has done that trip that can back me up here!

zilog_jones

bk wrote: »

The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV second hand for the UK is an interesting option you should check out. a 4x4 SUV with lots of space would make it ideal for dragging a kayak into the mountains. While it also has a 50km battery range, which if you had a charger at work might allow you to do most of your daily commute on battery.

50 km EV range is based on the NEDC test which is complete fantasy. Range in the real world is more like 30-35 km, 40 on a good day. New model might be better.

KCross wrote: »

Did they mis-calculate and run out of power?
Cork-Dublin is a very easy route to drive.

No, but I think the range estimation went to zero at one point - pretty stressful situation when you're in an unfamiliar car. And in this case it was Belfast (or somewhere nearby) to Cork.

unkel

bk wrote: »

The only meaningful number is the real a to b time.

Indeed. So you are saying a normal time from Dublin to Cork is about 2:30 in a normal car without stopping?

I've no business in Cork (and I rarely go more than 200km in one day), but for the craic I looked this up:

Lucan - Cork (Rochestown Road, where the CCS charger is) is 251km. Surely I should be able to do that in an Ioniq at the same speeds with one stop somewhere in the middle taking 45 minutes, so 3:15?

bk wrote: »

But on the other hand the EV costs a lot more up front. A while ago I did the maths on it for myself and found it would take well over 10 years for the EV to pay back

Not anymore. A Leaf is €20k, an Ioniq is €25k. Maybe a few thousand more up front (in the case of the Ioniq) but that's paid back within the first year or two for someone doing average mileage

bk

unkel wrote: »

Indeed. So you are saying a normal time from Dublin to Cork is about 2:30 in a normal car without stopping?

I've no business in Cork (and I rarely go more than 200km in one day), but for the craic I looked this up:

Lucan - Cork (Rochestown Road, where the CCS charger is) is 251km. Surely I should be able to do that in an Ioniq at the same speeds with one stop somewhere in the middle taking 45 minutes, so 3:15?

Yup, 2:30 would be pretty normal off peak. 2:15 wouldn't be unusual for someone with a heavy foot

Yes, I suspect 3:15 should be possible in the Ioniq. I can't wait to see someone try it out, I'd almost be tempted if that was a realistic option in winter. Though I'd prefer a 50kwh battery.

We were talking about the 24Kwh Leaf, which requires 2 or 3 stops to charge up. I'd be honestly surprised if someone can do it faster then 4 hours with two stops. I wasn't surprised to hear it taking some people 5 hours.

unkel wrote: »

Not anymore. A Leaf is €20k, an Ioniq is €25k. Maybe a few thousand more up front (in the case of the Ioniq) but that's paid back within the first year or two for someone doing average mileage

Well the Leaf is €28,000 with the 30Kwh battery, to be honest I don't think the 24k is even worth considering * and isn't the Ioniq €29k?

Do you mean with scrappage? I don't think that is a valid to take into account, not everyone has a car to scrap, I don't.

* However I agree that the Leaf second hand from the UK looks like great value for a second car in the family as a run around.

bk

zilog_jones wrote: »

50 km EV range is based on the NEDC test which is complete fantasy. Range in the real world is more like 30-35 km, 40 on a good day. New model might be better.

Sure, but then it can continue to run off petrol, but even that would make it a very efficient SUV with a superb MPG.

Of course not ideal, many people would love a 200+ mile real world BEV SUV, but that doesn't exist yet. For now the Outlander seems a decent compromise for people with Lochlannach and mine requirements (Long distance trips into very rough rural areas with lots of gear), while not being a total hog on the daily commute.

KCross

bk wrote: »

We were talking about the 24Kwh Leaf, which requires 2 or 3 stops to charge up. I'd be honestly surprised if someone can do it faster then 4 hours with two stops. I wasn't surprised to hear it taking some people 5 hours

I'm a bull****ter then?
I already said I did it in less than 3.5hrs

The 5hr quote was from someone driving at 80kmh!

bk

KCross wrote: »

I'm a bull****ter then?
I already said I did it in less than 3.5hrs

The 5hr quote was from someone driving at 80kmh!

I'm not saying anything like that. But you yourself said it was a long time since you done it and you don't really remember how long it took.

No offence meant, but your experience isn't lining up with what others have reported, right here on boards and what colleagues of mine who own the same car told me.

The next time you do this trip, if you want to run a GPS app to record the trip and prove me wrong, I'd be delighted to see it and would love to be proven wrong.

axe2grind

I was going to start new thread but this is really the same topic, though I'm not fussed on the specifics of travelling time from Dublin to Cork!

My EV needs are
1. Large boot, ideally Estate (family of 5 plus dog)
2. Range 160km (Cover vast bulk of journeys)
3. Charges for FCPs (to increase FCP availability)
4. Cost less then 30k

The Ioniq ticks box 2 & 4. Point 3 isn't car related and will come in time. Point 1 is the crux.

Past 12 months have done nearly 31000km which cost €1632. Diesel is about 10% more now, but as we’re averaging 4.6l/100km there isn’t huge annual fuel saving compared to those coming from more thirsty vehicles. I’m well aware that there are other reduction in costs which would add up. Also I would pay a bit for the EV drive experience, so I’m happy with the total cost of ownership providing I don’t exceed point 4.

Work from home family with 3 kids (teenage down to 5yo) and dog. Lots of random trips, many up to about 80km out and back, these mainly family trips to sports events with dog. Also while I do longer trips, 80km (160km round trip) is the max my wife does.
One car household till 2 years ago. Had a look at Leaf 2 years ago as a 2nd car and there were far too many trips outside of the leaf’s range and the car wasn’t liked by family and seats folded down was not practical. I really liked the EV drive experience.

At that time I started spending more weekends away, plus couple camping trips of a week each and so I got a diesel, so we’re a 2 car household but we could probably make do with one car and hire a car for the weekends/weeks that I’m away.

My EV requirements are a vehicle that my wife can do all her journeys. Hence the 160km range. She would struggle to toggle between automatic and manual. It needs space to carry family, gear & dog. I would be quite happy to use EV for the camping trips. I thought the Ioniq could fit the bill. It would cover nearly all our journeys. I wouldn’t mind using FCP for my longer journeys or travelling a bit slower if we’re on the range limit. Unfortunately it doesn’t have a ‘workable’ boot space for us and the back seats don’t fold down well.

I won’t get an EV while FCPs are free. There is too much hogging, either by local freeloaders, taxi drivers and even those charging close to 100% which is an inefficient use of FCPs. I need a good possibility that FCP will be vacant and IMO this is not currently the case while they are free.

Water John

The future of EV, esp in Ireland, largely looks like charging at home.
Fast charge points will only be used by someone doing along trip ie a minority.

zilog_jones

bk wrote: »

Of course not ideal, many people would love a 200+ mile real world BEV SUV, but that doesn't exist yet.

It's called the Tesla Model X, but maybe that doesn't count as "real world"

axe2grind wrote: »

She would struggle to toggle between automatic and manual...

After nearly a year of driving an automatic I thought I would never be able to drive a manual again, but I had no trouble going back to a manual on a few occasions. It's like second nature - very hard to un-learn (and I've only been driving 10 years).

But for EVs with large boots: There's the Nissan e-NV200 Combi which may or may not exist in Ireland (it's definitely available in the UK)... and that's about it. Next best thing would be either the Outlander PHEV or Toyota Auris Hybrid Touring Sport.

grogi

zilog_jones wrote: »

It's called the Tesla Model X, but maybe that doesn't count as "real world"


After nearly a year of driving an automatic I thought I would never be able to drive a manual again, but I had no trouble going back to a manual on a few occasions. It's like second nature - very hard to un-learn (and I've only been driving 10 years).

But for EVs with large boots: There's the Nissan e-NV200 Combi which may or may not exist in Ireland (it's definitely available in the UK)... and that's about it. Next best thing would be either the Outlander PHEV or Toyota Auris Hybrid Touring Sport.

I rented an Auris Touring this xmas. It does NOT have a large boot...

bk

zilog_jones wrote: »

It's called the Tesla Model X, but maybe that doesn't count as "real world"

Sorry, of course, yup I'm well aware of the X, if I won the Lotto in the morning I'd be looking for one, but of course it is a 120k+ car!

Also the Teslas are really large American cars, shockingly so compared to typical European cars. A X would probably struggle badly down the twisty typical rural Irish back roads.

axe2grind

zilog_jones wrote: »

After nearly a year of driving an automatic I thought I would never be able to drive a manual again, but I had no trouble going back to a manual on a few occasions. It's like second nature - very hard to un-learn (and I've only been driving 10 years).

I have no problem either switching from one to other but I know it would be an issue for her.

zilog_jones wrote: »

But for EVs with large boots: There's the Nissan e-NV200 Combi which may or may not exist in Ireland (it's definitely available in the UK)... and that's about it. Next best thing would be either the Outlander PHEV or Toyota Auris Hybrid Touring Sport.

The env200 doesn't have the range...less than the 24kwh Leaf and I'm not considering PHEV or hybrid.

cros13

axe2grind wrote: »

The env200 doesn't have the range...

The eNV200 will be getting a substantial range boost in the next few months.

Villain

I wouldn't even have attempted Carlow to Cork in my 24kw Leaf, if you have all the time in the world and happy to use SCP when FCP are down or blocked then EVs are fine, the main supporter of EVs in Ireland is retired and that says it all imo.

Planning a journey which requires charge in middle is a bloody pain, as a second car an EV is fine and will save you some money if you keep the car for enough years but having said that we don't have much experience of EVs here beyond Warranty years and how expensive servicing etc may be.

The one example of a leaf having a serious issue where it went bang when charging at FCP and caused serious damage to motor wouldn't leave you with much confidence! It took contacting the media to get Nissan to step in with ecars not offering any help!

aliveandkicking

cros13 wrote: »

The eNV200 will be getting a substantial range boost in the next few months.

I'm looking forward to that. I need a 7 seater but the current version is just too light on range for comfort. If the new version of the eNV can do 150-200km on a single charge and is reasonably priced I'll be ordering one fairly quickly. I don't see any other 7 seater EVs on the horizon so a range boosted eNV will be the one for me.