So I went for another ICE - please don't hate me.

September1

KCross wrote: »

Either way, you dont have to use the preheating if you dont want to, so thats not EV's fault and should not be part of the calculation. Its a bit like the people who leave their ICE car running for 10mins in the morning to heat up... did you factor that in to your ICE calc? You didnt, because its optional whether you do that or not.

I did not include this costs in calculation at all.

@n97_mini
Good point about charging losses at 120V. Let's assume than 10% losses which is best case and 150w/km which is 1.2c - this means that over those five years LEAF could be 360E better. That is only 332E per annum of advantage.

Is 332E worth downsides of owning EV? How much worth are upsides? These questions are to be answered by everyone. I think key point is that historically new EVs are not that good economically vs new ICEs.

KCross

September1 wrote: »

Let's assume than 10% losses which is best case and 150w/km which is 1.2c - this means that over those five years LEAF could be 360E better. That is only 332E per annum of advantage.

Is 332E worth downsides of owning EV? How much worth are upsides? These questions are to be answered by everyone. I think key point is that historically new EVs are not that good economically vs new ICEs.

Just so Im clear on your figures, the Leaf is €330/yr better financially AFTER you have included an extra €4k of depreciation on the Leaf. Correct?

n97 mini

zilog_jones wrote: »

I believe some modern diesels have a supplemental resistance heater

Not sure. I think I read somewhere that Honda were able to run the a/c in reverse, effectively making it a heat pump, with their first diesel engine. Dunno if this made it into production cars or not.

NIMAN

Re: night time electricity rate.

I heard there's a €50 fee for getting night rate activated on your account. Is this true?

And if so, is it a one off fee or an annual charge.

KCross

NIMAN wrote: »

Re: night time electricity rate.

I heard there's a €50 fee for getting night rate activated on your account. Is this true?

And if so, is it a one off fee or an annual charge.

The annual standing charge is typically around €45 more when you have a night rate meter. Thats probably what they mean and I suppose it is a charge for having it.

There is no charge to get the night rate meter installed/activated as such.

September1

KCross wrote: »

Just so Im clear on your figures, the Leaf is €330/yr better financially AFTER you have included an extra €4k of depreciation on the Leaf. Correct?

Yes, once deprecation would get to more regular levels this advantage would only grow. If you drive more than average, use free public charging this grows even more as well.

I wonder if you kept car for 3 years would it still be advantageous.

unkel

NIMAN wrote: »

And if so, is it a one off fee or an annual charge.

Nope. Zero costs. I ordered mine last Friday afternoon and it was installed Monday morning

Just beware that you have to ring your provider. They will make an appointment with ESB Networks for you

I calculated that if you use about 3 units per night on night rate, you are breaking even compared with not having a night meter. Anything more and you are saving money.

KCross

September1 wrote: »

Yes, once deprecation would get to more regular levels this advantage would only grow. If you drive more than average, use free public charging this grows even more as well.

I wonder if you kept car for 3 years would it still be advantageous.

Thanks, one other clarification.... your figures used 54mpg as your basis for ICE. Is that typical of new diesels these days in real world driving(not nicely warmed up motorway driving!)?

The most I got from my last 4 VAG(2.0TDi) cars was ~50mpg and that was for a long journey. Typically I was getting closer to 40-45mpg as a decent % of my daily journeys were done in "warming up mode" where we all know the ICE is not efficient.

And I presume petrol drivers would be getting low 40s as well?

So, I guess what I'm asking is, is the 54mpg figure a fair and reasonable one to use as a general representation of ICE? I'd suspect it isnt but open to correction as I happily have not bought a diesel for a few years now!

September1

KCross wrote: »

Thanks, one other clarification.... your figures used 54mpg as your basis for ICE. Is that typical of new diesels these days in real world driving(not nicely warmed up motorway driving!)?

I took it from UK site called Honest John for Golf version that was sold in 2012 - so I assume that is valid. If you go to original post I mention that.

Villain

KCross wrote: »

Thanks, one other clarification.... your figures used 54mpg as your basis for ICE. Is that typical of new diesels these days in real world driving(not nicely warmed up motorway driving!)?

The most I got from my last 4 VAG(2.0TDi) cars was ~50mpg and that was for a long journey. Typically I was getting closer to 40-45mpg as a decent % of my daily journeys were done in "warming up mode" where we all know the ICE is not efficient.

And I presume petrol drivers would be getting low 40s as well?

So, I guess what I'm asking is, is the 54mpg figure a fair and reasonable one to use as a general representation of ICE? I'd suspect it isnt but open to correction as I happily have not bought a diesel for a few years now!

My wife's Kadjar gets between 4.5l/100 and 4.7l/100 and that's driving national and regional roads. That DCi is very fuel efficient.

I used her car as example to highlight how crazy 30 cent per min for FCP charging was when I met with Gareth Davis.

jackofalltrades

KCross wrote: »

So, I guess what I'm asking is, is the 54mpg figure a fair and reasonable one to use as a general representation of ICE? I'd suspect it isnt but open to correction as I happily have not bought a diesel for a few years now!

Drove a B Class Mercedes 1.5 CDI recently, in a mixture of country and town driving.
Even though there were with several stops for roadworks, the traffic was heavy for the most of it and there was some hard overtaking, it still averaged 68 mpg.

80sDiesel

'11 quashai. Digital info. Average speed 83kmh.( 80% motorway at 128kmh) 5.5 litres average. New glow plugs and fully serviced.

September1

unkel wrote: »

I don't disagree with you. Of course it is cheaper TCO to buy a 1 year old car. Or better again, a 2 year old car. Wait, does this go on?

This is not that, thing is if you compare brand new EV vs brand new ICE - you would be worse off in first 3-4 years with EV.

listermint

September1 wrote: »

This is not that, thing is if you compare brand new EV vs brand new ICE - you would be worse off in first 3-4 years with EV.

Wrong. You have excluded total costs. Its the mistake that everyone who makes that statement makes. And it appears in every thread. Yet to be true from what I can see.

September1

listermint wrote: »

Wrong. You have excluded total costs. Its the mistake that everyone who makes that statement makes. And it appears in every thread. Yet to be true from what I can see.

What costs have I excluded apart from tyres that might be more expensive in case of EV?

listermint

September1 wrote: »

What costs have I excluded apart from tyres that might be more expensive in case of EV?

4 years servicing on a Diesel engine, plus issues that can go wrong - DPF Turbo. My fathers Audi Turbo went @3 years - 2800 Euro to fix. Audi covered it he was very lucky.

the EV cost to run is far lower than diesel, fuel / tax. Servicing.

September1

listermint wrote: »

4 years servicing on a Diesel engine, plus issues that can go wrong - DPF Turbo. My fathers Audi Turbo went @3 years - 2800 Euro to fix. Audi covered it he was very lucky.

the EV cost to run is far lower than diesel, fuel / tax. Servicing.

I included services costs in calculations, although for different brand as I had no data for VW and Nissan at 2011/2012 was not providing any exteneded warranties.

However if you think about Ioniq vs diesel Hyundai this difference is 80 euros in first five years, as I showed in my link. Both car would be during those first years covered by warranty.

jackofalltrades

listermint wrote: »

My fathers Audi Turbo went @3 years - 2800 Euro to fix. Audi covered it he was very lucky.

I know it's OT but a Turbo failing at 3 years. :eek:
Damn right they covered it.

listermint

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I know it's OT but a Turbo failing at 3 years. :eek:
Damn right they covered it.

Your not wrong crazy money all the same. Crazy

NIMAN

Agree with a lot of what Weckler has to say.

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/adrian-weckler-ireland-needs-uturn-on-electric-car-policy-35404932.html

Shocking to see just how ambitious the Government was originally wrt EV sales. 200,000 on the road by 2020. Now shown to be laughable.

unkel

NIMAN wrote: »

Agree with a lot of what Weckler has to say.

It started to look like a well rounded article until he posted:

"I recently went to upgrade my car and looked at electric options. But none of the current models had a 'real world' driving range of over 100 miles."

He let himself down big time there. Let's forgive him the generalisation and presume he was only talking about budget cars (so BMW i3 is out and don't even mention the Teslas). He obviously hasn't heard of / researched the Ioniq. If he had, he would have realised that it really is a gen 2.5 EV as someone has classified it. Weckler is only aware of gen 2 and gen 3 cars.

The gen 2.5 was what I needed to go EV. No longer a range of about 100km and a range indicator that is completely unreliable. A real range of 200+ km and knowing pretty much exactly what you have left. I'd say thousands of people would be in the same boat as me, if only they were aware. A tech journalist like Weckler is supposed to inform the people about new developments. He utterly failed here. I hope he reads this, does a lot more research and writes an update to his column.

September1

NIMAN wrote: »

Agree with a lot of what Weckler has to say.

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/adrian-weckler-ireland-needs-uturn-on-electric-car-policy-35404932.html

Shocking to see just how ambitious the Government was originally wrt EV sales. 200,000 on the road by 2020. Now shown to be laughable.

There is also matter of infrastructure. When I bought my LEAF in 2011 infrastructure was growing in rapid pace, every few months ESB would email me about a new charging points. I was in position to do 480km journeys without any problems, because I never had to wait at charger. My EV friends from other countries were jealous of this impressive infrastructure and commitment. Unfortunately at some point this has slowed down to trickle and number of EVs have increased to start to clog most popular FCPs. I thought with this problem ESB would install additional chargers, but they did not. Instead that raised issue of chargers for charging, which until today is not very clear. Few years ago I could imagine having EV as only car, but today this would be a bit of trouble.

September1

September1 wrote: »

There is also matter of infrastructure. When I bought my LEAF in 2011 infrastructure was growing in rapid pace, every few months ESB would email me about a new charging points. I was in position to do 480km journeys without any problems, because I never had to wait at charger. My EV friends from other countries were jealous of this impressive infrastructure and commitment. Unfortunately at some point this has slowed down to trickle and number of EVs have increased to start to clog most popular FCPs. I thought with this problem ESB would install additional chargers, but they did not. Instead that raised issue of chargers for charging, which until today is not very clear. Few years ago I could imagine having EV as only car, but today this would be a bit of trouble.

Not really if you had enough range you won't need to depend on the network as much.

If I go to Dublin shopping for instance roughly 160-180 kms total trip, depending on where I go I will usually use a SCP and not use the FCPs at all, the 6.6 Kw (24 Kwh Leaf) charger is dead handy.

I will then return after 2 - 2.5 hrs regardless to get it out of the way when I have enough juice and park in a regular car space.

The more range people have the less need for charging, the faster cars charge the quicker they leave the charge points.

The Ioniq for instance charging at 65 Kw on a ESB FCP is pretty good for 45 Kw chargers ! That will certainly help move cars away quicker but as battery capacity grows we will need faster and faster charging, however if people only get what they need then they won't need to wait for a 80% + charge.

I think the ESb realise now that a monthly charge is not acceptable, I wouldn't mind the 30C.Min but I do not use the FCPs much so maybe I am a bit unfairly biased towards charges especially since I believe it will eliminate a lot of unfair usage.

If I have an Ioniq for instance, it could do (possibly) do the trip on one charge and I wouldn't need to use any Charge point.

If I had the Zoe I could do 200 Kms driving hard to 280 kms driving more normal. That's a big difference and will mean far less reliance on the network and along with it's brilliant 44 Kw ac charger the SCPs become FCPs and Zoe 40 Kwh is worth serious consideration also.

So we're already at the point where ESB charges will not mean a lot for Zoe owners and in some way for Ioniq owners.

Do people remember what I said before that they should be careful what they wish for ? because as cars have the ability to charge faster and faster then they will get better value at the FCPs like the Ioniq for instance.

The faster the car can charge the more Kwh you would get for the same time V pay for KWh then it costs the same regardless.