Ceann Comhairle forced to save government this afternoon

The_Conductor

Government is looking shakey as hell- as the Ceann Comhairle was forced to use his casting vote this afternoon- when a bill from the Anti-Austerity-Alliance/People Before Profit group was put to a vote in the Dáil and the vote was tied 51 all- after Fianna Fáil abstained.

The bill would have removed the right of a landlord to end a tenancy in order to sell a property- the property would have to be sold with a sitting tenant. In addition- the bill prescribed financial compensation payments for tenants- if a landlord was forced to take back a property for their own use for any reason.

I suspect we haven't heard the last of this.

witchgirl26

To be honest I disagreed with this bill. It's fine for professional landlords as such but what about those people who are renting out a place because it was in negative equity and they had to move for work reasons or because their family outgrew the place they were in. They rent out the negative equity property but want to sell it in the future when it comes out of negative equity to move on with their lives. It'll be difficult to sell with a sitting tenant and who is going to buy the property? Most likely a professional landlord so there's therefore more landlord owned properties rather than available to owner-occupiers.

garhjw

It was a populist bulls*it far left bill that was unworkable. I can't believe so many people voted for that crap. The communists have a new scapegoat for the country's problems now water charges are gone and it's landlords.

snubbleste

Housing in all its forms is a massive issue. I'd expect TDs nationwide are being hounded over the past month when they've been back in their constituencies

heebusjeebus

What a joke the left are in this country. Accidental landlords like my wife would find it even harder to sell the house for anything close to the loan amount with this measure.
Populist bullsh*tters!

ger664

So the lefts solution is to expect private property owners to solve the social housing shortage in this country due to successive governments failure to keep adequate stock over the last 3-4 decades.

Sleeper12

I'm surprised FF abstained.
Personally I think the idea itself not bad. If it were changed to only cover landlords with more than one /five properties.

MrMorooka

What's interesting to me is that RTE completely buried this news : it's mentioned off hand in a couple of paragraphs in an semi-unrelated article : http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0119/846216-dail-vote-farmer-compensation/

listermint

Stupid Bill altogether. But what are FF up to..... That's more interesting.....


Very interesting...

Red Kev

The idea is fairly standard in al ot of other countries; Germany for instance and it works well. The problem here is that the law that alows it is being abused left, right and centre by landlords to jack up rental prices as much as they can.

Rental legislation needs widespread reform here, to protect landlords and tenants a bit better. piecemeal reform like this isn't much use without root and branch reform of the sector. It's also astonishing the amount of "accidental" landlords in the country, but laws should be brought in to benefit the majority, not protect the minority.

I'm also getting a bit sick and tired at this stage of listening to legislation being shelved because of those who purchased during the boom years, it looks like needed legislation changes are going to be put on the long finger for a couple of decades to protect their investments.

I've no time for the AAA/PBP. but there's a bit more to this than just writing it off like that.

Incidentally, had the government lost, they would not have needed to resign. There's no law saying that they have to in this case.

Red Kev

listermint wrote: »

Stupid Bill altogether. But what are FF up to..... That's more interesting.....


Very interesting...

Doing exactly what they've been doing since the first day of this government; waiting for the right time to pull out and call a new election. They don't give a fcuk about landlords, tenants or anybody else in this country bar themselves and those who bankroll them.

The_Conductor

listermint wrote: »

Stupid Bill altogether. But what are FF up to..... That's more interesting.....


Very interesting...

They probably did the figures- saw the Taoiseach a cohort are overseas and no matches were requested (the government party can request a 'match' for votes when members are away on official business). The figures were tight- and even when it drew @ 51 all- its given the government a scare.

Its politics, pure and simple- and that the vote was on this bill was more a matter of expediency than anything else. However- the fact that the Ceann Comhairle had to wade in with his vote- is a disgrace.

I can see where the AAA/PBP are coming from with their bill- however, as a blunt instrument- without any cognisance of a landlord with 1-2 properties who may need them him/her self- or may need to sell them- its simply not fair.

The worth of tenanted properties in pressure zones- is down by between 10-20% already- because of 'temporary' measures imposed by Coveney and Kelly- the proposals in this bill, while well intended- would in all probability drive many landlords to exit the sector- which would simply manifest itself through even more scarcity than currently.

GoldFour4

The usual media on facebook will have this plastered about the place as "FG vote down more rights for renters" and will get tons of populist comments about them being landlords.

Even as a tenant I can see how daft this bill is. It was a pure pr move by the left. FF abstaining was equally as populist.

76544567

Im so glad im selling up.
I just hope to god that I can get put before this or something worse comes up again.

witchgirl26

Red Kev wrote: »

The idea is fairly standard in al ot of other countries; Germany for instance and it works well. The problem here is that the law that alows it is being abused left, right and centre by landlords to jack up rental prices as much as they can.

Rental legislation needs widespread reform here, to protect landlords and tenants a bit better. piecemeal reform like this isn't much use without root and branch reform of the sector. It's also astonishing the amount of "accidental" landlords in the country, but laws should be brought in to benefit the majority, not protect the minority.

I'm also getting a bit sick and tired at this stage of listening to legislation being shelved because of those who purchased during the boom years, it looks like needed legislation changes are going to be put on the long finger for a couple of decades to protect their investments.

I've no time for the AAA/PBP. but there's a bit more to this than just writing it off like that.

Incidentally, had the government lost, they would not have needed to resign. There's no law saying that they have to in this case.

It works in Germany and other countries which is fine but we don't have the same type of rental sector as them at all. Until we do, bringing in measures like this which works for them won't necessarily make things better but could make them worse.

I agree with you about reform of the sector - it does need it alright but there are smarter ways around it than that. Enabling long-term leasing would honestly be better than what had been proposed here.

I'm sorry you're sick of it but it isn't to "protect their investments". My sister bought smart she thought at the start of the downturn. Gorgeous place at half the value of a couple of years before. Problem was it then dropped another 50% again leaving her in negative equity which she was fine with until she got married and with both of them owning, had to move into one. She rented out her place but always with the intention of selling as soon as the remaining mortgage would be covered because converting €100k into a personal 5 year loan was just not an option. She wasn't looking for some mad profit but just to come out the other side. A law like this would have left her unable to sell her own piece of property and left her with large debt.

GGTrek

This is scary for me.

It shows that Ireland is going the direction of Venezuela with communists almost commanding the Dail vote.

FF is playing politics on the skin of the landlords.

Something like this made me realize suddently that between this year and early next year I shall have to terminate all my tenancies (they are quite a few), I am already well versed in the RTB process, it is going to take some time for the stubborn ones, but I won't let the tenants/communists politicians expropriate my properties (which is exactly what the bill was proposing) which I worked hard to purchase.

The tenants can go out there and  look for someone dumb enough to rent to them or beg to the communist politicians: let Fr McVerry and his cohort of communist politicians pay for their cake.

Lumen

witchgirl26 wrote: »

I'm sorry you're sick of it but it isn't to "protect their investments". My sister bought smart she thought at the start of the downturn. Gorgeous place at half the value of a couple of years before. Problem was it then dropped another 50% again leaving her in negative equity which she was fine with until she got married and with both of them owning, had to move into one. She rented out her place but always with the intention of selling as soon as the remaining mortgage would be covered because converting €100k into a personal 5 year loan was just not an option. She wasn't looking for some mad profit but just to come out the other side. A law like this would have left her unable to sell her own piece of property and left her with large debt.

It is pure speculation (and an exaggeration) to state that she would be unable to sell the property. Markets adapt to whatever regulatory regime is in place. Rentals with tenants in situ are currently difficult to sell because the law makes it easy to kick out tenants, and therefore the presence of tenants indicates that they are overholding. That "dodgy tenant" signal would not apply if this law was passed.

GGTrek

By the way the news are out:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fragility-of-the-minority-government-evident-as-eviction-bill-narrowly-passes-in-the-dil-35380879.html

murphaph

I said this would spook a few landlords into selling up and some people said it had "no chance" and people wouldn't be spooked by it. Well, I can now guarantee you that a very many more rental properties will be removed from the sector as a result of today's shenanigans. AAA and PBP can provide comfort to the homeless ex tenants that should they find one of the few remaining properties available, that their rent will only go up by a guaranteed 4% each year. Absolute morons.

ThisRegard

The_Conductor wrote: »

Government is looking shakey as hell- as the Ceann Comhairle was forced to use his casting vote this afternoon- when a bill from the Anti-Austerity-Alliance/People Before Profit group was put to a vote in the Dáil and the vote was tied 51 all- after Fianna Fáil abstained.

The bill would have removed the right of a landlord to end a tenancy in order to sell a property- the property would have to be sold with a sitting tenant. In addition- the bill prescribed financial compensation payments for tenants- if a landlord was forced to take back a property for their own use for any reason.

I suspect we haven't heard the last of this.

Ceann comhairle vote is not too unusual these days.

But as for the bill, it's ridiculous. If it was ever to be put through watch landlords exit in droves before it's actually law which would only lead to bigger problems for renters.

76544567

ThisRegard wrote: »

Ceann comhairle vote is not too unusual these days.

But as for the bill, it's ridiculous. If it was ever to be put through watch landlords exit in droves before it's actually law which would only lead to bigger problems for renters.

Now Coveny saying that 15 more areas to become pressure zones. Hope people aren't charging below market in those areas.

jimmycrackcorm

The_Conductor wrote:

Government is looking shakey as hell- as the Ceann Comhairle was forced to use his casting vote this afternoon- when a bill from the Anti-Austerity-Alliance/People Before Profit group was put to a vote in the Dáil and the vote was tied 51 all- after Fianna Fáil abstained.

It's a minority government. They've previously lost a vote so I wouldn't nearly describe them as shaky given that they've basically been in the Dane position since the start.

This was a bad bill. I've a relative who has rented out their n negative equity apartment so that they can rent a house instead because of a growing family. This either prevent then from moving back to their apartment due to necessity.

I also think it could have been easily challenged due to constitutional property rights.

GGTrek

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I also think it could have been easily challenged due to constitutional property rights.

Easily challenged and constitutional do not go well together. It would have taken probably a good two years or more to get rid of it and a lot of money.

beauf

witchgirl26 wrote: »

It works in Germany and other countries ...

Really?

https://global.handelsblatt.com/finance/germanys-unreal-estate-market-461741

4ensic15

Lumen wrote: »

Rentals with tenants in situ are currently difficult to sell because the law makes it easy to kick out tenants, and therefore the presence of tenants indicates that they are overholding. That "dodgy tenant" signal would not apply if this law was passed.

This is nonsense of the first order. If it was so easy to kick out tenants why would anyone be worried about taking one over? Rentals with tenants in situ are difficult to sell because mortgage providers insist on vacant possession before releasing funds. the "dodgy tenant" signal has nothing to do with it. If that law passed it would simply mean landlords finding other ways to get out tenants before selling.

LuckyLloyd

GGTrek wrote: »

This is scary for me.

It shows that Ireland is going the direction of Venezuela with communists almost commanding the Dail vote.

FF is playing politics on the skin of the landlords.

Something like this made me realize suddently that between this year and early next year I shall have to terminate all my tenancies (they are quite a few), I am already well versed in the RTB process, it is going to take some time for the stubborn ones, but I won't let the tenants/communists politicians expropriate my properties (which is exactly what the bill was proposing) which I worked hard to purchase.

The tenants can go out there and  look for someone dumb enough to rent to them or beg to the communist politicians: let Fr McVerry and his cohort of communist politicians pay for their cake.

An ever growing section of society is beginning to believe that the purpose of property is housing, not wealth or investment. Expect more political action in this direction.

mansize

We need less a la carte, accident landlords, and a more professional system

newacc2015

Red Kev wrote: »

The idea is fairly standard in al ot of other countries; Germany for instance and it works well. The problem here is that the law that alows it is being abused left, right and centre by landlords to jack up rental prices as much as they can.

Other countries aren't experiencing a housing crisis where properties badly need to be built. Literally everything rental policy introduced by the Government in the last year will only make the rental market significantly worse. If I was a REIT who was looking at whether to expand my property portfolio by building more in the US or Ireland. I would think to myself, Ireland is making life impossible for landlords, why build there. That is exactly happening. Ironically laws to 'protect tenants' are only going to screw tenants over in the future by reducing supply.

What law is being abused by landlords? Do you know if a landlord wants to evict tenants to sell a property they have to make a statutory declaration? If they break it they are heavily fined. Explain to me how that is being abused?

Red Kev wrote: »

Rental legislation needs widespread reform here, to protect landlords and tenants a bit better. piecemeal reform like this isn't much use without root and branch reform of the sector. It's also astonishing the amount of "accidental" landlords in the country, but laws should be brought in to benefit the majority, not protect the minority.

What reform exactly? When I have asked people what reforms are needed nearly every single one is covered by law as is. People go on like tenants rights are as bad as doing the famine. Yet when you actually sit down and look at tenancy rights in Ireland and compare them to other European countries, Irish tenants have pretty amazing protections. Irish tenancy lengths are continuous now, we have rent caps, declarations for intent to sell, protection of sale of property from vulture funds etc. What reforms are needed?

Red Kev wrote: »

I've no time for the AAA/PBP. but there's a bit more to this than just writing it off like that.

AAA-PBP are willing to stab the top 80% of country in the back if they could serve the bottom 20% better. None of their policies make any economic sense, but they keep their voter base happy. Rarely anything they suggest is in the common good. It is just to serve their voter base.

They are trying to block the development of O'Devaney Gardens as they want it to be 100% social housing. The last time O'Devaney Gardens was 100% social housing it was a heroin infested, **** hole that so dangerous that the Gardai at one point refused to enter it. Yet AAA-PBP don't care about that and want to ensure their voter base is served even if it is a total disaster. How can you trust or believe the policies of a party that are even willing to look at mistakes made in the past?

Anything that is suggested by AAA-PBP is dangerous for the majority of this nation. Anything that is suggested by AAA-PBP, we should do the total opposite.

beauf

newacc2015 wrote: »

Other countries aren't experiencing a housing crisis where properties badly need to be built. ....

I think they are, especially with immigration.

FinanceDublin

Fair amount of misinformation in here:

"FG couldve requested a pair from FF": no. Every vote from FF was an abstention, so was already an effective pair. Whether they were there or not would've made no difference. Other parties were not willing to pair

"It's quite common for the Ceann Comhairle to vote these days"

Eh, no. It really isn't. The last one was in 2010.

"Government on a knife edge over this"

Again, no. The Gov has lost a few votes. In fact it lost one later today on tillage. Private Members Bills at second stage aren't especially meaningful anyway.

---

All of the above is just a bit of fact checking. No question Govt isn't in a strong position, but it wouldn't have been on a knife edge had it lost today (would have to go to committee stage, would've been amended or dropped there), and it certainly isn't on a knife edge having won. Its "majority" even when FF abstain is ****e though

garhjw

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

An ever growing section of society is beginning to believe that the purpose of property is housing, not wealth or investment. Expect more political action in this direction.

I disagree with you on this. It is a small but loud section of society that believe this. Normal people don't think like this.