Barrack Obama. So his term as American president is slowly winding down.

Skylinehead

RobertKK wrote: »

Here in an Economist article they ask if Obama in 2013 has slightly switched policy from kill to some capture as the US tried to capture two terrorists in Somalia and Libya.
That after much criticism of his drone program.
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21587860-two-raids-special-forces-hint-tactical-shift-barack-obama-kill-or-capture


Here in the Guardian


https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/14/obama-secret-kill-list-disposition-matrix?client=safari

I'm not disputing that Obama would rather kill than capture, I think that's rather clear. My point is that drones have simply overtaken airstrikes as the preferred medium, mainly because of their loitering capability and better surveillance. I don't think the actual policy has been changed at all, I'm just querying why drones are somehow worse than a a JDAM dropped from a jet. And make no mistake, they were used to kill terrorists (and innocent people) well before Obama and drones will continue to be used well after Obama.

whisky_galore

A triumph of style over substance.

RobertKK

Skylinehead wrote: »

I'm not disputing that Obama would rather kill than capture, I think that's rather clear. My point is that drones have simply overtaken airstrikes as the preferred medium, mainly because of their loitering capability and better surveillance. I don't think the actual policy has been changed at all, I'm just querying why drones are somehow worse than a a JDAM dropped from a jet. And make no mistake, they were used to kill terrorists (and innocent people) well before Obama and drones will continue to be used well after Obama.

I don't agree.
The airplanes are for war situations as used in Syria, though I believe Obama and the west chose the wrong side.
As in Libya and Iraq.
We did not have military airplanes hovering above a place 24/7 before the drones, observing and waiting to fire its payload.
It would have been boots on the ground, special forces and the likes.

Obama has used drones on a totally different scale as to what Bush used, this I believe was mainly down to Guantanamo.

Skylinehead

RobertKK wrote: »

I don't agree.
The airplanes are for war situations as used in Syria, though I brlieve Obama and the west chose the wrong side.
As in Libya and Iraq.
We did not have military airplanes hovering above a place 24/7 before the drones, observing and waiting to fire its payload.
It would have been boots on the ground, special forces and the likes.

Jets have been used out of war situations before, in Libya, Sudan, you name it. Although they also use satellites and Tomahawks.

You keep mentioning the hovering thing, what's the problem there? Surely better than jumping in and out without taking stock of the situation.

daithi7

whisky_galore wrote: »

A triumph of style over substance.

Well he sure must have some style so, cos he had more substance about him than any other president since FDR, and that's quite something!!

BabyCheeses

He was ok, probably a bit above average. Getting a nobel prize for not being Bush was a laugh. Overall, could have been better but things did improve.

RobertKK wrote: »

Obama's treasury secretary Timothy Geithner vetoed a deal that would have helped Ireland get a better deal when our banks were failing, thus costing Irish taxpayers far more.
Obama must laugh at the people here in Ireland who wave and cheer him.

You support Trump...

Earthhorse

pumpkin4life wrote: »

If he was a good president, Hillary Clinton would have won in a landslide imo.

It's pretty rare for a party to win a third term in the White House. Last time was Bush Snr after Reagan and Bush was voted out after one term. Clinton took over and was hugely popular but Gore couldn't capitalise on it. The odds are actually stacked against the incumbent party for a third term.

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone who thinks Obama couldn't get stuff done because of a Republican majority would do well to remember that the Dems had a majority for two years at the start.

The plummet to the current situation is Obama's and the DNC's own doing.

The last six years were largely spent trying to preserve the work of those first two years. People should absolutely take the worst sort of obstructionist politics practised by Republicans during Obama's terms into account when assessing his legacy.

SharpshooterTom

daithi7 wrote: »

Well he sure must have some style so, cos he had more substance about him than any other president since FDR, and that's quite something!!

No he hasn't.

The Kennedy/LBJ era, Reagan and Clinton easily were as substantive (I would argue more so).

Both Reagan and Clinton left office considerably with higher approval ratings than Obama did, they didn't get those for no reason.

RasTa

It's Obamas fault for the Irish banking crisis? That's a new one to me.

Galway_Old_Man

RasTa wrote: »

It's Obamas fault for the Irish banking crisis? That's a new one to me.

You should do some reading on the behind the scenes interventions his administration had on the terms of the bailout/troika coming here. It's all there. Was Obama behind the banking crisis here? No. Did he fu(k Ireland over in the aftermath? Yes.

RasTa

Galway_Old_Man wrote: »

You should do some reading on the behind the scenes interventions his administration had on the terms of the bailout/troika coming here. It's all there. Was Obama behind the banking crisis here? No. Did he fu(k Ireland over in the aftermath? Yes.

I don't like this pass the blame ****e. We should have burnt the bondholders ourselves.

RobertKK

Skylinehead wrote: »

Jets have been used out of war situations before, in Libya, Sudan, you name it. Although they also use satellites and Tomahawks.

You keep mentioning the hovering thing, what's the problem there? Surely better than jumping in and out without taking stock of the situation.

It has been reported that people who live where the drone wars are happening, are afraid to go outside because, they can hear the buzzing noise of drones overhead, and they don't know know who the target is and if and when they go outside if they will find themselves in the wrong place, at the wrong time and end up blown to bits.

Obama's administration also do double tap strikes so when a target is hit, they also started hitting the people who were first responses to the strike.
It led to people who had family members killed, afraid to go to the scene of an attack, and it is important to keep in mind all the time how males who could be considered of a military age are seen as guilty without proof.
It is no wonder we had the rise of ISIS when poor foreign policy seemed to be to support any group who rose up against a dictator, and where drones are creating a hate that is very very dangerous.
The person who tried to cause an explosion in Times Square in NY said he did because of drones and the US not caring about killing innocent people.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but a wrong can lead to very bad consequences and the drone wars are radicalising people, as no one with sense would accept it is right to live under a drone overhead 24 hours a day waiting to hit, and you scared for your life not knowing if you will be caught up in it.

Terrorism as a problem got far worse under Obama and his very poor policies, which really just assisted them, as they have done in Libya and Syria.

RobertKK

RasTa wrote: »

I don't like this pass the blame ****e. We should have burnt the bondholders ourselves.

It is not pass the blame.

The Obama administration were not a friend when we found ourselves in trouble.
All other parties to the bailout including the IMF wanted bondholders burnt but the US as a major contributor to the IMF said no, Ireland needed money and had no option but to accept what was on offer.

If we did it anyway, we would have been in a far worse position and be like Greece where the banks were closed for weeks, and they had to accept eventually what was on offer..

Rezident

Obama is clearly one of the good guys. I can't agree with some of his policies but he's obviously a decent, honest and intelligent person who has tried to do good in difficult circumstances.

I feel he was very poorly treated by much of America and that they will not appreciate him until he is gone. They may be wishing for him soon...

nacho libre

Gringo180 wrote: »

I stopped reading after that. A world with McCain as president of the United States would be a scary place. The man is a war mongering physchopath.

Sand likes war. So it's no great surprise he is a fan of McCain.
He supported the Iraq war. He used to regularly play down the number of dead as some sort of justification for that invasion.

As for Obama; he probably knew he could not deliver a lot of what he promised, but when has that ever stopped a politician with ambition and ego. I suppose he will blame the Republican dominated congress for stifling him. Which doesn't tell the fully story. I don't know how it's accurate to describe someone as decent when they regularly approved double tap strikes.
Also how you can describe someone as decent/" one of the good guys", who send his daughter to an elite private school, while all the time preaching about helping the common person to lift themselves up, when he effectively denied access to education to poor inner city kids in DC.

daithi7

nacho libre wrote: »

As for Obama; he probably knew he could not deliver a lot of what he promised, but when has that ever stopped a politician with ambition and ego. I suppose he will blame the Republican dominated congress for stifling him. Which doesn't tell the fully story. I don't know how it's accurate to describe someone as decent when they regularly approved double tap strikes.
Also how you can describe someone as decent/" one of the good guys", who send his daughter to an elite private school, while all the time preaching about helping the common person to lift themselves up, when he effectively denied access to education to poor inner city kids in DC.

Oh ffs!!

Those free nachos are obviously bad for your thinking process, as witnessed by your distorted sense of reality. I'd suggest going easy on the cheese sauce, you're obviously blocking those arteries to your grey matter, and that part of your anatomy obviously needs every last bit of oxygen it can get!!

Departing Obama Tearfully Shoos Away Loyal Drone Following Him Out Of White House

A Primal Nut

Good domestic affairs legacy, terrible foreign affairs legacy.

A Primal Nut

Its amazing how easy a time the media gave Obama. I never remember him being asked difficult questions in an interview. The only interviews he ever did were lighthearted ones with Jimmy Kimmel and Jon Stewart. Whenever the issue of Syria came up it was usually just softballs like "Isn't Putin awful". Nothing about drones, US giving weapons to Al Nusra and ISIS. Never came up.

Lyle Lanley

He was given an easy ride by the media for fear of being accused of racism a lot of the time.

Hector Bellend

Amirani wrote: »

People in general attribute far too much to the sitting president - both positive and negative. The actual power of the President when it comes to causing significant shifts economically, socially and politically can and generally is quite limited.

Obama I think has been pretty okay - best president of my lifetime anyway. Much of this is based on the lack of scandal during his presidency and his approach to issues, which was mostly based on logic and reasoning rather than sabre-rattling populism.

What age are you? Seven?

BalcombeSt4

His policy in the Middle East was a disaster. The Israeli's are now more uncompromising then they've ever been. Libya,Syria & Iraq are in ruins. His drone campaing in Yemen & Pakistain is the largest terrorist camaping in the world.

He's made relations with Russia even colder.

His good points were normalising relations between Cuba & the US, & helping establish more normal relations with Vietnam.

Berserker

Lyle Lanley wrote: »

He was given an easy ride by the media for fear of being accused of racism a lot of the time.

The media here are still in love with him. On the flip side, the constant sniping at Trump is getting more than a little embarrassing. I work in Dublin city centre and American tourists were amazed buy the anti-Trump protests here yesterday.

Zebra3

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Its amazing how easy a time the media gave Obama. I never remember him being asked difficult questions in an interview. The only interviews he ever did were lighthearted ones with Jimmy Kimmel and Jon Stewart. Whenever the issue of Syria came up it was usually just softballs like "Isn't Putin awful". Nothing about drones, US giving weapons to Al Nusra and ISIS. Never came up.

Ask difficult questions, lose access.

That's American "democracy".

rossie1977

Hector Bellend wrote: »

What age are you? Seven?

Yes because there has been amazing presidents since Kennedy

Johnson won't be favourly remembered, Nixon was a black mark on us politics, Ford no, Carter re: Johnson, Regan will be held up as a saviour by the right but time won't be as kind given the number of hidden controversies, 138 members of Regan's administration were either investigated, indicted or convicted of crimes. Both Bush's were disasters.

That leaves Clinton and Obama. Most of the negative stuff thrown Obama's way ie rise of Islamic terrorism, bombing of middle Eastern nations etc were also used against Clinton. Unlike Clinton however Obama's personal and private life is spotless which history will be more kind to.

My prediction is 100 years from now a statue of Obama will sit in Washington DC before one for Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Regan, George H/W Bush or Clinton does.

AMKC

AMKC wrote: »

Will you miss Obama and what did you think of him as the American president?

I think Obama has been a very good American president he done his best he got America back working after it was left in a terrible state by Bush and the World recession. He also made some mistakes to do. He should have acted on Syria instead of standing back. He is only human do and none of us are perfect we can,t get everything right.
I think its sad his term is coming to on end and as someone in my family said today its a pity that it could not have ran for a 3rd term.

To be fair i think he wanted to but didnt want to go in alone. The Brits refused to go in though after Blair and Iraq

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/31/world/meast/syria-civil-war/

A Primal Nut

He did act in Syria. He and Clinton rejected a peace deal that could have ended the entire thing in 2012 and continued supplying guns to the rebels prolonging the war, starting the refugee crisis and forcing a strict interpretation of Shari'a Law on Aleppo for four years. If they accepted the peace deal Assad would have been left in power but that's a minor problem compared to everything else that that's gone on for the last four years. Assad never committed terrorist attacks on US or European soil. People inspired by the syrian rebels did.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde24/4227/2016/en/

Everything he touched in foreign policy turned to s***.

RobertKK

rossie1977 wrote: »

Yes because there has been amazing presidents since Kennedy

Johnson won't be favourly remembered, Nixon was a black mark on us politics, Ford no, Carter re: Johnson, Regan will be held up as a saviour by the right but time won't be as kind given the number of hidden controversies, 138 members of Regan's administration were either investigated, indicted or convicted of crimes. Both Bush's were disasters.

That leaves Clinton and Obama. Most of the negative stuff thrown Obama's way ie rise of Islamic terrorism, bombing of middle Eastern nations etc were also used against Clinton. Unlike Clinton however Obama's personal and private life is spotless which history will be more kind to.

My prediction is 100 years from now a statue of Obama will sit in Washington DC before one for Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Regan, George H/W Bush or Clinton does.

There are more wars in the Middle East/North Africa now than when Obama took office.

Obama will be seen in history as the Drone President, with many covert wars.
A President whose policies against dictators assisted terrorism and which for a long time to come will have made terrorism in Europe a much bigger problem.
Arming 'rebels' and weapons finding their way into the hands of terrorists.
Helped the transition of power from Gaddafi to terrorists in Libya which led to their ambassador ironically being murdered in a city that Gaddafi said had a terrorism problem, but where the west said Gaddafi wanted to massacre people.
Tried to help the rebels in Syria who want Sharia law against the secular dictator Assad.
Obama laughed at Romney in 2012 when Romney said that Russia was the number 1 geopolitical issue, Obama made a joke of it and made a reference to the 1980's. his secretary of State had given the Russians a symbolic reset button. A little over 4 years later, Obama and NATO have the most troops on NATO's borders with the Russians with relations the worst since the cold war.

Obama, he just wasn't that good.
He is the type of person who leads to sayings about talking the talk...

Angel Crow

"Sure, we tortured some folks." - Barack Obama

Berserker

Angel Crow wrote: »

"Sure, we tortured some folks." - Barack Obama

If Trump said that .... I'm going to bet that Trump won't bother with the 'I'm Irish' nonsense too, which is a relief.

Dempsey

RobertKK wrote: »

There are more wars in the Middle East/North Africa now than when Obama took office.

Obama will be seen in history as the Drone President, with many covert wars.
A President whose policies against dictators assisted terrorism and which for a long time to come will have made terrorism in Europe a much bigger problem.
Arming 'rebels' and weapons finding their way into the hands of terrorists.
Helped the transition of power from Gaddafi to terrorists in Libya which led to their ambassador ironically being murdered in a city that Gaddafi said had a terrorism problem, but where the west said Gaddafi wanted to massacre people.
Tried to help the rebels in Syria who want Sharia law against the secular dictator Assad.
Obama laughed at Romney in 2012 when Romney said that Russia was the number 1 geopolitical issue, Obama made a joke of it and made a reference to the 1980's. his secretary of State had given the Russians a symbolic reset button. A little over 4 years later, Obama and NATO have the most troops on NATO's borders with the Russians with relations the worst since the cold war.

Obama, he just wasn't that good.
He is the type of person who leads to sayings about talking the talk...

But he brought in Obamacare so everything is ok

Skylinehead

rossie1977 wrote: »

Yes because there has been amazing presidents since Kennedy

Not as if Kennedy was anything particularly great either. Good speaker/image and getting assassinated = inflated legacy.

Ulysses Gaze

RobertKK wrote: »

There are more wars in the Middle East/North Africa now than when Obama took office.

Obama will be seen in history as the Drone President, with many covert wars.
A President whose policies against dictators assisted terrorism and which for a long time to come will have made terrorism in Europe a much bigger problem.
Arming 'rebels' and weapons finding their way into the hands of terrorists.
Helped the transition of power from Gaddafi to terrorists in Libya which led to their ambassador ironically being murdered in a city that Gaddafi said had a terrorism problem, but where the west said Gaddafi wanted to massacre people.
Tried to help the rebels in Syria who want Sharia law against the secular dictator Assad.
Obama laughed at Romney in 2012 when Romney said that Russia was the number 1 geopolitical issue, Obama made a joke of it and made a reference to the 1980's. his secretary of State had given the Russians a symbolic reset button. A little over 4 years later, Obama and NATO have the most troops on NATO's borders with the Russians with relations the worst since the cold war.

Obama, he just wasn't that good.
He is the type of person who leads to sayings about talking the talk...

And let's not forget the ATF Gun walking scandal aka The Fast and The Furious which hardly helped US-Mexican relations.

tomwaterford

Dempsey wrote: »

But he brought in Obamacare so everything is ok

It's hardly a bad thing like....looking after poor people?

Berserker

tomwaterford wrote: »

It's hardly a bad thing like....looking after poor people?

The rates have risen by 25% on average this year. Recall a poster on another thread, who lives in North Carolina, saying that it has risen by 40% there. It is incredibly unpopular and it is not affordable.

RobertKK

tomwaterford wrote: »

It's hardly a bad thing like....looking after poor people?

It is not good when it is unsustainable.

Many people are finding it very difficult or impossible to afford health insurance as prices rocket.

tomwaterford

RobertKK wrote: »

It is not good when it is unsustainable.

Many people are finding it very difficult or impossible to afford health insurance as prices rocket.

It's not good to look after poor people???


What other options have you...if they can't afford to look after themselves....let them die,because they poor???


Primitive thinking tbh

Berserker

tomwaterford wrote: »

It's not good to look after poor people???


What other options have you...if they can't afford to look after themselves....let them die,because they poor???


Primitive thinking tbh

Have you ever lived in the USA? It's every man and woman for themselves. It is very primitive.

Dempsey

tomwaterford wrote: »

It's not good to look after poor people???


What other options have you...if they can't afford to look after themselves....let them die,because they poor???


Primitive thinking tbh

Thats the American dream, survival of the fittest. If you are poor, you havent worked hard enough.

Berserker

Dempsey wrote: »

Thats the American dream, survival of the fittest. If you are poor, you havent worked hard enough.

Bang on. I know people who work three jobs just to keep their heads above water.

tomwaterford

Berserker wrote: »

Bang on. I know people who work three jobs just to keep their heads above water.

That's no life to live. ....would Ya be bothered??


When did working three jobs to just keep your head above water become an aspiration?

Dirty Dingus McGee

Berserker wrote: »

Bang on. I know people who work three jobs just to keep their heads above water.

I think I'd rather be dead in that case.

Really sad seeing elderly people working in the theme parks in Orlando when I was over there.Surely after a lifetime of work they should be entitled to some decent sort of retirement.

fryup

he was a "Token Black President" as simple as that

he did next to nothing for blacks and other minorities in america...although his hands were tied up against a hostile congress and all

Berserker

Berserker wrote: »

Bang on. I know people who work three jobs just to keep their heads above water.

That lunatic Michael Graham who used be talking to George Hook couldn't get his head around the idea of welfare.

Berserker

Deleted User wrote: »

That lunatic Michael Graham who used be talking to George Hook couldn't get his head around the idea of welfare.

Friends of mine think it's bonkers too. You work to pay some other person to sit on his or her ass, is how they view welfare. Obamacare was a massive no-no to them. They really hated it.

tomwaterford wrote: »

That's no life to live. ....would Ya be bothered??

I wouldn't but countless people are.

mzungu

RobertKK wrote: »

Many people are finding it very difficult or impossible to afford health insurance as prices rocket.

The main beneficiaries of Obamacare are Trump supporters in his rust belt heartland. The turkeys have voted for christmas. Under Trump they won't have a hope of being able to afford it.

mzungu

Berserker wrote: »

Friends of mine think it's bonkers too. You work to pay some other person to sit on his or her ass, is how they view welfare. Obamacare was a massive no-no to them. They really hated it.

That must be the old Cold War mindset. Obamacare must have seemed too much like communism for them.

Academic

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/moving-vans-arrive-at-white-house-to-remove-all-traces-of-competence-dignity

mzungu

mzungu wrote: »

That must be the old Cold War mindset. Obamacare must have seemed too much like communism for them.

The ironic thing is that the so called good old 'land of opportunity' doesnt explain that opportunity is only for the fortunate whereas the big evil communists in the like of Cuba were able to eliminate illiterature and provide total health care.
the whole capitalistic model the US have developed is designed as so the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Some people will never be able to afford or will have great difficulty in getting out of their state of affairs while others will still prosper

Zebra3

Deleted User wrote: »

That lunatic Michael Graham who used be talking to George Hook couldn't get his head around the idea of welfare.

Oddly enough most of these commentators can't get their heads around welfare for poor people but have no issue with welfare for wealthy corporations.