What makes Ireland the most dangerous country in Europe

worded

Was reading the dash cam thread and ended up on YouTube a few times.

Paddetrians grtting run over, road rage, near ones, cars loosing traction etc

Driving is the most dangerous thing we do every day

Careful out there everyone

worded

CalamariFritti wrote: »

There are quite a lot of dangerous drivers on the road. Of those dangerous drivers I'd say half of them either think they're doing it right or simply don't care and the other half have no idea what they're doing.

Generally speaking people don't give driving the respect it deserves. With respect I mean awareness of how quickly and easily things can get out of control when you're propelling a 2 ton block of metal around. People are laissez faire about driving, it'll be grand, whats the big deal. So they are on the phone, do their make-up, attend their kids. For the most part thats grand, the odd fender bender, but it doesn't take into the equation a quick, more difficult to see, no protection vehicle like a motorbike.

I've been riding a bike in a few countries, not many but a few, and I feel the most vulnerable here at home. Just from what I experience every day on the road.

I was a motor bike driver for years and as a car driver I can observe more via a windscreen and I'm flabbergasted at the selfish driving I see daily. Unlike the continent most people never drove a motor bike and have no clue about them.

MOTO drivers are usually way more skilled, you can't fall off a car as my
MOTO mech used to say

Last thing you smell is the oil on the road

Hotblack Desiato

Johnboner wrote: »

Ummm what? Read my post I have quoted RSA, do you really think RSA and OECD would lie? Look at the figuress yourself they are on the RSA website. It doesn't matter how long you were riding a bike, facts cannot be argued.

You have provided no link and no figures.

And if you think the RSA don't spin facts and figures to suit their agenda, that's pretty naive on your part.

Elemonator

Try driving in ****ing Turkey.........

Hotblack Desiato

worded wrote: »

I was a motor bike driver for years and as a car driver I can observe more via a windscreen

Wow. In any car you can see a lot LESS. No pillars causing blind spots on a bike.

That's before you go into the fogged up windows, or phone or sat nav stuck on the screen at eye level. Etc.

Saw a BL Mini the other day, between N plate and discs the entire nearside third of the screen was obscured!

underwaterdog

I don't think anyone here has actually quoted a source...

BlinkingLights

Overall, Ireland actually has the 5th lowest road death rate per head of population in the EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/sites/roadsafety/files/pdf/observatory/historical_evol_popul.pdf

We also drive the highest number of km per person per year.

If motorbikes are over represented, it's a very specifically motorcycle issue rather than general driving.

Add Ireland's large proportion of twisty roads and regular driving rain and I think you might have your answer.

Motorbikes here aren't a huge % of road users but the road death rate is also very low so you can quite easily get a higher % of deaths if the average rate is very low.

You'd need to see a number of fatal accidents per motorcycle user population rather than as a % of road deaths to get an accurate picture.

Also I think while many of the people on this forum care about how they ride and see responsible and exemplary motorcyclists a % out there are pretty reckless.

I was passed on the M8 in dense fog a few days ago by 4 NI reg motorbikes who were doing way higher speed than 120km/h in really bad conditions.

I'm also regularly passed by motorbikes weaving in fast moving traffic on multi lane roads here and I've been passed on narrow roads on blind corners by some moron who seems to think he's in a motorbike race.

Again, I'm not saying for a moment that any of the posters here are anything other than responsible as otherwise they would be be concerned enough to post here. However we need way better motorcycle training and probably more than many countries as we have a lot of very poor weather conditions that create visibility issues and very greasy road surfaces and plenty of roads with stone walls that would do serious damage to a biker coming off.

It's not like we can modify historical rural roads and walls. We need to ride and drive appropriately to the conditions.

Also because bikes are so rare on the roads here anyway, a lot of car drivers don't know much about how to interact with them properly.

worded

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Wow. In any car you can see a lot LESS. No pillars causing blind spots on a bike.

That's before you go into the fogged up windows, or phone or sat nav stuck on the screen at eye level. Etc.

Saw a BL Mini the other day, between N plate and discs the entire nearside third of the screen was obscured!

Disagree in my case having been both a MOTO driver and car driver.

I've moved my car ins / NCT holder away from the corner to max
Viewing area.

Windscreen is kept clean and it rapidly defrosts.

I believe I have a better view of the road now versus a MOTO:

I give lots of space to bikes as I'm very aware of them and I'm as predictable and corteous as possible all road users. I do my best

BlinkingLights

Considering that the whole thing could be checked with a live database there's no need for any of those disks and even if they were kept, they could be 1/3 the size or less.

AlekSmart

BlinkingLights wrote: »

Considering that the whole thing could be checked with a live database there's no need for any of those disks and even if they were kept, they could be 1/3 the size or less.

Very true,just look at our former Colonial rulers for example,then compare it with the Irish windscreen/back window..Tax,NCT,Insurance,Disabled Sticker,Parking Permit and the more recent,but rapidly increasing occurence,of an L plate AND an N plate together....with the L backways and the N on it's side.....:D

galwaytt

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You have provided no link and no figures.

And if you think the RSA don't spin facts and figures to suit their agenda, that's pretty naive on your part.

They do spin facts to suit their raison d'être sometimes, particularly on 'speeding'.

amacca

Chiorino wrote: »

It might be just me but I think there is a horrible inconsistency with the quality of road surfaces, especially on major roads.

The stretch of the M50 south between J3 and J5 (M1 to Finglas) has always felt very uneven to me but is fine once you pass Finglas. Same could be said about the N3/M3.

Huge stretches of roads seem to be surfaced with different grades of tarmac, some ultra smooth, some so rough you think the chippings were thrown at the road by hand.

Most issues Ive ever had were due to this.......loose chippings on the road in unexpected locations are also a nightmare ... I usually slow down to a crawl as it can be like riding on marbles.. a load of chippings sprayed out from the middle of two lanes by car in front approaching a roundabout caused my front to washout coming on to roundabout and resulted in a lowside at comically low speed straight into the roundabout...Im lucky nothing was on the roundabout and I can see the "funny" side of it

Johnboner

amacca wrote: »

Most issues Ive ever had were due to this.......loose chippings on the road in unexpected locations are also a nightmare ... I usually slow down to a crawl as it can be like riding on marbles.. a load of chippings sprayed out from the middle of two lanes by car in front approaching a roundabout caused my front to washout coming on to roundabout and resulted in a lowside at comically low speed straight into the roundabout...Im lucky nothing was on the roundabout and I can see the "funny" side of it

Yep, similar situation happened to me. There was lot of dirt on the road from the tractors, it looked like he was transporting **** and it fell outside the trailer all the way. I was going at 100 km/h on an N road with cars in front so didn't have much time to react but managed to avoid by moving to the side, but it was close. Pretty sure I would have went down due to the amount of it on the road, now I avoid N roads as much as possible and take motorways if I have a chance, it's just that stupid 70c toll that's annoying.

What makes Ireland the most dangerous country for motorcycles , I don't know tell us?

You've given absolutely no facts apart from telling us what the RSA website says.

Send me links to the equivalent statistic in every other European country for a start, break it down by driver numbers on the road and then we can have a discussion once you have proved your statement. Until then it sounds like a made up fact.

dashcamdanny

Judging by the amount of experienced motorcyclists on this thread who drive a motorcycle instead of riding a motorcycle, it makes me wonder if they even have a bike.

Cian_ok

We have bigger bikes in Ireland.

I looked at the numbers of bikes licenced in Ireland (on the CSO website) for the last 9 years and compared this to the UK.

23% of irish bikes are over 1000cc, in the UK it's 15% over 1000cc.
Only 28% of irish bikes are under 250 cc, in the UK 31% are under 150cc, and 42% under 400cc.

So the average bike in Ireland is a lot bigger than the UK.

Bohrio

Cian_ok wrote: »

We have bigger bikes in Ireland.

I looked at the numbers of bikes licenced in Ireland (on the CSO website) for the last 9 years and compared this to the UK.

23% of irish bikes are over 1000cc, in the UK it's 15% over 1000cc.
Only 28% of irish bikes are under 250 cc, in the UK 31% are under 150cc, and 42% under 400cc.

So the average bike in Ireland is a lot bigger than the UK.

I think that the number difference between Ireland and and UK is vast, I have tried to get proper numbers but I think its 1.3 million Motorcycle users in the UK vs 500 motorcycles registered in Ireland per year?

Sure that can't be right, can it?

bmwguy

Some drivers are poor, unobservant. Car drivers. Some motorcyclists are absolute nuts, the risks I see them taking and unbelievable speeds. Not all of course, but some. It's as if they don't know they are not as visible as cars.

This is coming from someone taking motorbike lessons in next few weeks with a view to getting one.

BlackWizard

I find Irish drivers to be good. So I would suspect it's something to do with the roads and cultural issues.

Hotblack Desiato

BlackWizard wrote: »

So I would suspect it's something to do with the roads and cultural issues.

Is what? The completely unsubstantiated claim in the OP with no link and no figures that has now become an 'alternative fact'?

bladespin

Cian_ok wrote: »

We have bigger bikes in Ireland.

I looked at the numbers of bikes licenced in Ireland (on the CSO website) for the last 9 years and compared this to the UK.

23% of irish bikes are over 1000cc, in the UK it's 15% over 1000cc.
Only 28% of irish bikes are under 250 cc, in the UK 31% are under 150cc, and 42% under 400cc.

So the average bike in Ireland is a lot bigger than the UK.

More to do with our learner regulations and restrictions than anything else, fewer take up motorcycling here due to the increased difficulty than the UK, the motorcycling population here also tends to be older too.

KonFusion

Does anyone have a link to OP's data?

two wheels good

KonFusion wrote: »

Does anyone have a link to OP's data?

I had a look and found only this 2008 data on RSA's site.
Some remarkable stats. e.g.
Table 33:
15 car fatalities not wearing seat belts. (driver or front seat passenger)
10 Motocyclist fatalities not wearing helmet (incl one pillion)
171 motorcyclist injuries not wearing helmets

If even half of those deaths could have been avoided (and added instead to the injury stats) the headline figure for national road deaths would have been significantly reduced.

Table 38. SIngle vehicle collisions: Motorcyclist Fatalities: 11

Also: how dangerous travelling on Saturday and Sunday is relative to other days of the week.

[Edit] Found more recent RSA data here
Not so easy to browse as a pdf but indicates a big improvement since 2008 e.g.

CJhaughey

two wheels good wrote: »

Not so easy to browse as a pdf but indicates a big improvement since 2008 e.g.

Recession hit then, lots of people couldn't afford to do any driving at all.
Traffic volumes reduced hugely.
That's what the improvement will show.
Wait for the next set of results where you'll see an increase in accident rates as the general economic improvement means more people on the road and associated deaths/injuries climb again.

JamboMac

CJhaughey wrote: »

Recession hit then, lots of people couldn't afford to do any driving at all.
Traffic volumes reduced hugely.
That's what the improvement will show.
Wait for the next set of results where you'll see an increase in accident rates as the general economic improvement means more people on the road and associated deaths/injuries climb again.

Such a positive person you are.

listermint

CJhaughey wrote: »

Recession hit then, lots of people couldn't afford to do any driving at all.
Traffic volumes reduced hugely.
That's what the improvement will show.
Wait for the next set of results where you'll see an increase in accident rates as the general economic improvement means more people on the road and associated deaths/injuries climb again.

How long should we wait, The figures are 9 years old ?

I assume there are several figures since then.

Harika

From my experience as motorbike driver in Austria, Ireland, France and Italy, Irish drivers are not used to motorbikes and are unaware how quickly this small little dot behind you can get to the cars side to overtake, this is where my most dangerous situations I experienced originated.
Like in Ireland I am highly anxious when driving or overtaking between two lanes, in fear of a car that moves from left to the right in their lane for no reason. While in France or Italy it is quite common that cars are bumper to bumper in both directions and in the middle the bikes or scooters were arranging themselves to get through the gap between.
Also Irish drivers are more cautious and prefer to jump on the brakes at an amber light when in other countries, amber means accelerate quickly. It takes me longer to come to a halt, than a car driver, so this was the second most scenario for a dangerous situation.

listermint

Harika wrote: »

From my experience as motorbike driver in Austria, Ireland, France and Italy, Irish drivers are not used to motorbikes and are unaware how quickly this small little dot behind you can get to the cars side to overtake, this is where my most dangerous situations I experienced originated.
Like in Ireland I am highly anxious when driving or overtaking between two lanes, in fear of a car that moves from left to the right in their lane for no reason. While in France or Italy it is quite common that cars are bumper to bumper in both directions and in the middle the bikes or scooters were arranging themselves to get through the gap between.
Also Irish drivers are more cautious and prefer to jump on the brakes at an amber light when in other countries, amber means accelerate quickly. It takes me longer to come to a halt, than a car driver, so this was the second most scenario for a dangerous situation.

Honestly have not noticed this, people seem to move out of the lane when i come along. That is over 90% of the time.

BlinkingLights

Harika wrote: »

From my experience as motorbike driver in Austria, Ireland, France and Italy, Irish drivers are not used to motorbikes and are unaware how quickly this small little dot behind you can get to the cars side to overtake, this is where my most dangerous situations I experienced originated.
Like in Ireland I am highly anxious when driving or overtaking between two lanes, in fear of a car that moves from left to the right in their lane for no reason. While in France or Italy it is quite common that cars are bumper to bumper in both directions and in the middle the bikes or scooters were arranging themselves to get through the gap between.

Also Irish drivers are more cautious and prefer to jump on the brakes at an amber light when in other countries, amber means accelerate quickly. It takes me longer to come to a halt, than a car driver, so this was the second most scenario for a dangerous situation.

You're actually describing two practices that are not allowed in the rules of the road.

1) You're not allowed to drive between lanes of traffic. Drivers don't expect you to do that and it's not surprising they might not see you. It's illegal. You're in/on a motorised vehicle and you're supposed to pick a lane and use it. Cutting between lanes is extremely dangerous for precisely the reasons you're describing. And, yes because there are relatively few motorcycles on the road, drivers absolutely will not expect you to be there.

2) Amber light in the Irish rules means stop unless it's unsafe to do so. You can actually get ticketed in Ireland for going through on amber without any reason to do so. If you've adequate distance to the light, and it turns amber and you can stop, you're supposed to.

and...

3) In normal speed traffic, if the 'little dot' suddenly appears out of nowhere and you're moving at the speed of traffic, I would suspect the 'little dot' is going way too fast and beyond the speed limit.

two wheels good

CJhaughey wrote: »

Recession hit then, lots of people couldn't afford to do any driving at all.
Traffic volumes reduced hugely.
That's what the improvement will show.
Wait for the next set of results where you'll see an increase in accident rates as the general economic improvement means more people on the road and associated deaths/injuries climb again.

That crossed my mind too but we need more recent figures to confirm/compare.
From 2008 to 2012 - all recession years - the trend was downwards.
For example
(will it format for me? No, it bloody won't! Maybe the table tag will do it... I give up.)

Persons Killed (Number) by Road User Type and Year
2008 2009 2010 2011 2012
Pedestrians 49 40 44 47 29
Motor cyclists 29 25 17 18 19
All Car users 160 146 130 95 89

The database access is very good, all interactive queries, very flexible but time-consuming.
Covers 2000 to 2012. Worth a look. Here's the link again.

Oi! One other general comment, boardsies:
I go to the trouble of referencing some much needed original data and nobody thanks my post. What's that all about?