Creatine..do you really need it? And water intake

New Goat

I've been taking 3-5g of creatine over the last 15 weeks or so but broke that up with about 4 weeks off it.

Seems to help with recovery between sets. But not a huge difference . I've been ridiculously thirsty recently though to the point where I'm going to stop it now. I must be drinking 4 litres of water not to mention quite a lot of tea too.

I'm interested in hearing from weight trainers who do well without it as it seems to be highly recommended to supplement with it.

I'm also worried about long term effects which havent been studied ie after thirty years. And effects relating to male pattern baldness.

Elemonator

Creatine will make you thirsty. It's moving water to your muscles essentially.

I personally don't use any of that stuff, maybe the odd protein shake here and there though. They didn't have protein shakes or creatine pills years ago and you still had some mighty strong people. I just eat well and thats all the protein substitutes for, it just happens to be a cheaper option. I still get on just fine.

Zillah

You naturally get some creatine from eating meat, and your body will produce a small amount on its own. I supplement, but mostly because I'm vegetarian - I'm not sure I'd bother otherwise.

Alf Veedersane

Elemonator wrote: »

They didn't have protein shakes or creatine pills years ago and you still had some mighty strong people. I just eat well and thats all the protein substitutes for, it just happens to be a cheaper option. I still get on just fine.

Yes there were strong people. Creatine isn't going to make you strong. It may make you 1% stronger though.

It's not a necessity but I don't see why there would be an issue with taking it.

New Goat

Find it hard consuming so much liquid 6+ litres.

Dry mouth from thirst. Plus worried about the acceleration of male pattern baldness and perhaps complications in the very long term which havent been researched

slicus ricus

New Goat wrote: »

I've been ridiculously thirsty recently though to the point where I'm going to stop it now. I must be drinking 4 litres of water not to mention quite a lot of tea too.

It is very unlikely that this sort of excessive thirst is being caused by Creatine. I would look at other aspects of your diet too that might cause this, not just supplements. Also, extreme thirst is known to be a red flag for diabetes, it might be worth getting some blood work done just to rule that out as a cause.

New Goat wrote: »

I'm also worried about long term effects which havent been studied ie after thirty years. And effects relating to male pattern baldness.

Because you get Creatine through food, it is quite unlikely that there are any long term side effects. Any side effect would be from the process used to synthetically produce Creatine but this would be no different to any other synthetically produced dietary supplement or processed food product.

In terms of male pattern baldness, I can't see how Creatine would have a substantial impact on that. Male pattern baldness is caused by Dihydrotestosterone ("DHT"), which is a byproduct of testosterone. DHT has more of an impact on hair growth/loss in some males than in others, hence the fact that some go bald earlier in life than others. Basically, if you are going bald (i.e. DHT release is having that reaction on your hair) and you increase the amount of testosterone in your system synthetically, it will in turn increase your levels of DHT and speed up the process. It is hard to see how Creatine supplementation would have any material impact on testosterone and DHT levels.

Alf Veedersane

New Goat wrote: »

Find it hard consuming so much liquid 6+ litres.

Dry mouth from thirst. Plus worried about the acceleration of male pattern baldness and perhaps complications in the very long term which havent been researched

There's only been one study on male pattern baldness and creatine so there's nothing conclusive.

But if you're worried about negative side-effects, don't take it. Your muscles won't atrophy.

drdeadlift

I havent taken creatine in years.I seen it on sale in a shop the other day and nearly bought a tub.I suffered with constipation alot of times i took it.
From my memories i had very noticeable gains in both size and strength every time i took it,,5 grams or so a day.
Im gona get a tub of it next week.

dastardly00

drdeadlift wrote: »

I havent taken creatine in years.I seen it on sale in a shop the other day and nearly bought a tub.I suffered with constipation alot of times i took it.
From my memories i had very noticeable gains in both size and strength every time i took it,,5 grams or so a day.
Im gona get a tub of it next week.

How do you solve the constipation though

I started taking creatine two weeks ago as I just wanted to see what it was like (no loading phase, ~5g/day).
I feel as if I've been blocked up and not going as 'regularly' as I normally would. I've also been letting out some horrendous smelling gas
I think I have been drinking enough water, but maybe not?

drdeadlift

dastardly00 wrote: »

How do you solve the constipation though

I started taking creatine two weeks ago as I just wanted to see what it was like (no loading phase, ~5g/day).
I feel as if I've been blocked up and not going as 'regularly' as I normally would. I've also been letting out some horrendous smelling gas
I think I have been drinking enough water, but maybe not?

More water and greens.The constant thirst is really annoying

I take it in my vitargo during workouts to help a little bit
Haven't noticed thirst or anything

Bazzo

If you're unsure about creatine then don't take it, it's that simple. However, I'd be wary of any sensationalist studies claiming x, y or z side effects. Creatine is probably the most studied supplement in the fitness industry for quite a while now and there's still no conclusive evidence for any of these negative side effects.

Tigger

creatine makes me stronger for longer sand a bit bigger (water i think) but can give me cramps and constipation
if i had a competition or something id take it but i hate the cramps

Zillah

If creatine was causing any weird side effects I'd dump it in a second.

Alf Veedersane

Zillah wrote: »

If creatine was causing any weird side effects I'd dump it in a second.

That's a bit aggressive.

So you get aggressive...angry even, regularly?

Gavinz

dastardly00 wrote: »

How do you solve the constipation though

I started taking creatine two weeks ago as I just wanted to see what it was like (no loading phase, ~5g/day).
I feel as if I've been blocked up and not going as 'regularly' as I normally would. I've also been letting out some horrendous smelling gas
I think I have been drinking enough water, but maybe not?

So why bother your bollocks?

dastardly00

Gavinz wrote: »

So why bother your bollocks?

There's nothing wrong at all with my bollocks

I wanted to give creatine a try to see if it would improve my performance.
If bowel movements don't get back to normal then I'll stop taking it.

New Goat

Could the bowels movements be down to too much protein?

Alf Veedersane

New Goat wrote: »

Could the bowels movements be down to too much protein?

The jacks in a hell of a lot of gyms would be a no-fly zone if that was the case.

Johnnyhpipe

I used to take it a few years back. In fairness it made noticeable differences in my lifts/endurance.

I gave it up though because there is no long term studies on this stuff obviously because it hasn't been around long enough! There are some rumours about about Jonah Lomu from his teammates - but make of that what you will.

It works by rushing water to muscle fibres. It doesn't know the difference between rushing water to your bicep or rushing water to your heart (or other muscle) and no one knows enough about it to give a decision which they'll bet their life on.

I have a tub upstairs which I'd live to go back on because of the noticeable advantages, but honestly I think i'll dump it. Maybe its absolutely fine, maybe not.

For people who say its fine because you get it from red meat etc, you don't get anywhere near the quantity you'd be getting through supplementation. Again, maybe thats not a bad thing... I don't know. But personally its not for me.

So, sorry I've no definitive answer to your question. But there's my personal experience/opinion.

Alf Veedersane

Neil Francis is the peddler of that guff about Jonah Lomu and creatine. It's nonsense.

To be fair, there are over 750 studies of creatine supplementation that have shown no adverse effects.

Diarrhoea can happen if someone takes too much at once in which case spreading out over the day would help.

Eoinbmw

I bet most use pre workouts but have a problem with "dangerous" creatine!

MightyMandarin

Stopped taking it a while back once I went off for 2-3 weeks, saw no difference in strength once I started taking it again for a month so I stopped.

It's certainly backed by good evidence but it doesn't work for me I guess.

Blacktie.

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Stopped taking it a while back once I went off for 2-3 weeks, saw no difference in strength once I started taking it again for a month so I stopped.

It's certainly backed by good evidence but it doesn't work for me I guess.

I've heard about 5% are non responders. Or it could have been that the difference is tiny and that you wouldn't notice.

MightyMandarin

Blacktie. wrote: »

I've heard about 5% are non responders. Or it could have been that the difference is tiny and that you wouldn't notice.

In the past I noticed a difference for sure, but I've heard your body can become immune to its effects after a while, and I had been taking it for about a year straight.

slicus ricus

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

There are some rumours about about Jonah Lomu from his teammates - but make of that what you will.

Jonah Lomu had a rare kidney disorder called nephrotic syndrome. Not sure how Creatine supplementation could be equated to causing that. There have been numerous studies done on the effects of Creatine on the kidneys and liver and none of them produced any adverse results whatsoever.

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

It works by rushing water to muscle fibres. It doesn't know the difference between rushing water to your bicep or rushing water to your heart (or other muscle) and no one knows enough about it to give a decision which they'll bet their life on.

The main function of Creatine is the production of ATP through interaction with ADP naturally produced by the body, which is how it gives you more energy for training. Another function is its ability to hydrate muscle cells thus increasing the rate of protein synthesis. To suggest that Creatine "rushes" water to muscle fibres is simply sensationalism.

New Goat

New Goat wrote: »

I've been taking 3-5g of creatine over the last 15 weeks or so but broke that up with about 4 weeks off it.

Seems to help with recovery between sets. But not a huge difference . I've been ridiculously thirsty recently though to the point where I'm going to stop it now. I must be drinking 4 litres of water not to mention quite a lot of tea too.

I'm interested in hearing from weight trainers who do well without it as it seems to be highly recommended to supplement with it.

I'm also worried about long term effects which havent been studied ie after thirty years. And effects relating to male pattern baldness.

I haven't taken any creatine in 8 days now since making this thread.

That crazy thirst has gone.
The itch I felt in my hair has gone.

Its too early to tell whether its had an effect on my training.

And its hard to do that conclusively because my sleep is not good and my nutrition needs work too.

Brian?

Blacktie. wrote: »

I've heard about 5% are non responders. Or it could have been that the difference is tiny and that you wouldn't notice.

I thought the percentage was higher. I'm pretty sure I'm a non responder, plus it hurts my stomach.

caviardreams

Brian? wrote: »

I thought the percentage was higher. I'm pretty sure I'm a non responder, plus it hurts my stomach.

I thought it was about 20%? I found there was no difference, or certainly nothing I noticed, so stopped after a few months. I might be one of the 20%!

Zillah

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

For people who say its fine because you get it from red meat etc, you don't get anywhere near the quantity you'd be getting through supplementation.

But, you do, though. Standard creatine supplementation is 5g/day.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/533707-how-much-creatine-is-in-red-meat/
Meat is around 4-6g creatine per kg. Granted, most people wouldn't eat a full kilo of meat every day but the numbers are in the same ballpark.

Blacktie.

Zillah wrote: »

But, you do, though. Standard creatine supplementation is 5g/day.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/533707-how-much-creatine-is-in-red-meat/
Meat is around 4-6g creatine per kg. Granted, most people wouldn't eat a full kilo of meat every day but the numbers are in the same ballpark.

I doubt most people would even eat half this amount of meat in a day. Probably closer to about 250g meat so I'd say it's still a fair statement.

Though it is the most well studied supplement out there so I don't think it changes anything.

Alf Veedersane

Most people don't get enough Vitamin D from food and certainly not from sunlight but I don't hear much protesting about Vitamin D supplementation.

Blacktie.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Most people don't get enough Vitamin D from food and certainly not from sunlight but I don't hear much protesting about Vitamin D supplementation.

That's a vitamin. They're the good chemicals. Creatine is associated with muscle building. The stuff that makes you get too big!

ford2600

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Most people don't get enough Vitamin D from food and certainly not from sunlight but I don't hear much protesting about Vitamin D supplementation.

Masterjohn has a lot of work done on it; high doses of Vitamin D in absence of A & K can be problematic. Kerrygold on your steak and your sorted:)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17145139

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2009/04/07/tufts-university-confirms-that-vitamin/

http://www.westonaprice.org/our-blogs/cmasterjohn/is-vitamin-d-safe-still-depends-on-vitamins-a-and-k-testimonials-and-a-human-study/

Alf Veedersane

ford2600 wrote: »

Masterjohn has a lot of work done on it; high doses of Vitamin D in absence of A & K can be problematic. Kerrygold on your steak and your sorted:)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17145139

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2009/04/07/tufts-university-confirms-that-vitamin/

http://www.westonaprice.org/our-blogs/cmasterjohn/is-vitamin-d-safe-still-depends-on-vitamins-a-and-k-testimonials-and-a-human-study/

I know. And magnesium as well. But it's more about addressing the idea that supplementing with a natural substance that's over and above what you get from food is an issue.

New Goat

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I know. And magnesium as well. But it's more about addressing the idea that supplementing with a natural substance that's over and above what you get from food is an issue.

I read that supplementing with creatine halts the natural production of creatine.

I was thirsty as fck on 5g a day. Maybe 2.5g would have been better or splitting it morning and evening

Alf Veedersane

New Goat wrote: »

I read that supplementing with creatine halts the natural production of creatine.

That reverses when you stop supplementing so it's not an issue.

Blacktie.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

That reverses when you stop supplementing so it's not an issue.

Wait... what if you don't stop. I've been supplementing for like a year and a half straight more or less.

Alf Veedersane

Blacktie. wrote: »

Wait... what if you don't stop. I've been supplementing for like a year and a half straight more or less.

If you don't stop, you will probably die of rage.

Or not.

But what's most likely is that your body will keep the daily creatine production back in balance. Just because it hasn't had to produce creatine endogenously in a loooong time doesn't mean it can't.

Mellor

caviardreams wrote: »

I thought it was about 20%? I found there was no difference, or certainly nothing I noticed, so stopped after a few months. I might be one of the 20%!

It's quite possible that you simply wouldn't notice the difference. You are talking like an extra rep, maybe. Most people simply have too many variables in there life to pin that level of micro-performance down to a single item.

Zillah wrote: »

Meat is around 4-6g creatine per kg. Granted, most people wouldn't eat a full kilo of meat every day but the numbers are in the same ballpark.

But it's led is white meat right? I imagine the most would be close to 1kg of red meat per week, than per day. So maybe 1g per day at a stretch.
An extra 5g per day on top is a lot imo.

Zillah

Blacktie. wrote: »

Wait... what if you don't stop. I've been supplementing for like a year and a half straight more or less.

laoch na mona

I find creatine (and whey for that matter) help with my recovery. Been taking creatine for a year and a half with no side effects

Blacktie.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

If you don't stop, you will probably die of rage.

Or not.

But what's most likely is that your body will keep the daily creatine production back in balance. Just because it hasn't had to produce creatine endogenously in a loooong time doesn't mean it can't.

Ah it just set off some alarms for me after reading that taking test can shut down your own natural production. Though it's only a small chance of happening so I hear.

Alf Veedersane

Blacktie. wrote: »

Ah it just set off some alarms for me after reading that taking test can shut down your own natural production. Though it's only a small chance of happening so I hear.

Different production process so same outcomes don't necessarily apply

Mellor

Blacktie. wrote: »

Ah it just set off some alarms for me after reading that taking test can shut down your own natural production. Though it's only a small chance of happening so I hear.

Taking test will almost certainly shutdown natural production. Natural production being suppressed isn't an issue. The issue is that without proper PCT it could remain suppressed.

Creatine situation is different in that natural production restarts as soon as you stop supplementing. You don't loses the ability to do it, it's just that the body prioritises other functions.

Alf Veedersane

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I know. And magnesium as well. But it's more about addressing the idea that supplementing with a natural substance that's over and above what you get from food is an issue.

I took magnesium and a multivitamin last night and felt so much better today than yesterday.
Or maybe cos it's not Monday

Alf Veedersane

bluewolf wrote: »

I took magnesium and a multivitamin last night and felt so much better today than yesterday.
Or maybe cos it's not Monday

You're welcome.