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Disc vs Rim brakes

13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,971 ✭✭✭fat bloke


    I think the e-voting parallel refers to the reaction time of rim brakes v's disc brakes in wet weather. With rim brakes you pull the brakes and, as with conventional voting systems, you get a definitive response the following day. Whereas with e-voting and hydraulic disc braking, the outcome is immediately known.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    Not sure the wet weather scenario holds up to scrutiny either. How fast do you need to be going in order to benefit from the stopping power of discs ? My back o the envelope calculations suggest much faster than the average commuting speed with a rider weight of well over 90 kilos. Even then the benefit is marginal.

    I have single front brake on my fixed gear that has served me well commuting in Dublin since 2013, over almost 25000 km. A lot of stopping and starting coming through the city center every day. The rim has plenty of life left and when it is replaced, sometime next year, it will cost 70 euro. That works out at 14 euro per year for the rim.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    OleRodrigo wrote: »
    Not sure the wet weather scenario holds up to scrutiny either. How fast do you need to be going in order to benefit from the stopping power of discs ? My back o the envelope calculations suggest much faster than the average commuting speed with a rider weight of well over 90 kilos. Even then the benefit is marginal.

    I have single front brake on my fixed gear that has served me well commuting in Dublin since 2013, over almost 25000 km. A lot of stopping and starting coming through the city center every day. The rim has plenty of life left and when it is replaced, sometime next year, it will cost 70 euro. That works out at 14 euro per year for the rim.

    Ahem...
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101459976&postcount=27


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    ford2600 wrote: »

    An experiment to show riding without a brake was safe. Have since switched back to a brake :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,268 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    youtheman wrote: »
    Totally agree with you.  Reminds me of the e-voting debacle.  A new technology is available, and has clear advantages over the old system. 

    What were the advantages of the proposed eVoting system?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    I have driven without brakes in my time, when I discovered that the brakes weren't working and had to use the gears to get the car to safety. It certainly increased my alertness and road awareness.
    What were the advantages of the proposed eVoting system?

    More exact, less human error, faster. Despite the fact that it was used in the same way as the human counting method - take out random piles, rather than counting every vote; it was a method kind of like making a blueprint by painstakingly colouring in the blue bits so as to leave the white lines white.

    Main reason it was scrapped (imho) was that it took away the sadistic, schadenfreude-filled gloating fun that is the Irish proportional representation election count. The first person to discover themselves voted out in a shock turnaround - five minutes after the vote count started - collapsed in floods of tears and had to be taken to a side room and comforted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,268 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Chuchote wrote: »
    More exact, less human error, faster. Despite the fact that it was used in the same way as the human counting method - take out random piles, rather than counting every vote; it was a method kind of like making a blueprint by painstakingly colouring in the blue bits so as to leave the white lines white.

    Main reason it was scrapped (imho) was that it took away the sadistic, schadenfreude-filled gloating fun that is the Irish proportional representation election count. The first person to discover themselves voted out in a shock turnaround - five minutes after the vote count started - collapsed in floods of tears and had to be taken to a side room and comforted.

    How exactly was it 'more exact'? How do you have any security that the vote choices entered by the voter are what is stored in the machine and counted at the end of the day?

    And what kind of 'human error' are you referring to, given that almost every count operation in the manual occurs under the watchful scrutiny of interested players from some/all parties?

    And as for 'faster' - how is that a benefit? What particular benefit arises from knowing the result on Friday night instead of on Saturday night?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,812 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    That's decided so. Definitely not getting electronic voting on my next bike :)


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,876 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    How exactly was it 'more exact'? How do you have any security that the vote choices entered by the voter are what is stored in the machine and counted at the end of the day?
    What chucote said is not wrong. More exact and less human error in the voting booth itself in that the machine could theoretically confirm your choices before you submit. Still nowhere near useful enough to override the major concerns.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,268 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    What chucote said is not wrong. More exact and less human error in the voting booth itself in that the machine could theoretically confirm your choices before you submit. Still nowhere near useful enough to override the major concerns.

    How is it 'more exact'? How do you know that the vote recorded/counted is exactly the vote entered?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,908 ✭✭✭CrowdedHouse


    Ah lads...

    Seven Worlds will Collide



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 105 ✭✭diarmaidol


    Comparing eVoting to Disk Brakes is all kinds of wrong.

    Disks make carbon wheels a sensible investment. The Pros should listen to a major sections of their industry that pays their way, They are safer as a whole.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,876 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    diarmaidol wrote: »
    Comparing eVoting to Disk Brakes is all kinds of wrong.
    Agreed. Disc brakes are closer in concept to the invention of the mechanical loom and the resulting mass changes in employment patterns and population movement, resulting in the new lower classes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,218 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    diarmaidol wrote: »
    Disks make carbon wheels a sensible investment
    Not sure if serious.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 105 ✭✭diarmaidol


    Lumen wrote: »
    Not sure if serious.

    In a relative sense. If you have a grand to drop on wheels and want the best. People do, I don't.

    Spending a grand on a set of wheels and using them as a braking surface is nuts. Fine if you ain't paying for em. When you are? Yes you can swap out the rim but thats more expense.

    Disk wheels have a disposable disk.

    Take the view of the bike industry and how they want to make money. It's better for them to sell a product with lower risk because all the braking heat issues are basically gone, you get a more durable product and you should sell more expensive wheels with better margin.

    This isn't a carbon v ALU discussion, the same applies either way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    The thing we can all take away from this, is that with the right language you can rationalize anything.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    Agreed. Disc brakes are closer in concept to the invention of the mechanical loom and the resulting mass changes in employment patterns and population movement, resulting in the new lower classes.

    How many toots on a crack pipe did you have before coming up with that one?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,218 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Interesting to see how Ribble are marketing their rim/disc builds.

    RIBBLE AERO 883 DISC, Recommended Build: €3,360
    http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-aero-883-disc/

    RIBBLE AERO 883, Recommended Build: €2,897
    http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-aero-883/

    The rim-braked version is cheaper but comes with manky alloy wheels at 1650g claimed.

    The disc version has full carbon wheels but they weigh 1770g claimed.

    So the advantage of discs is that for the same amount of deep section, the wheels last longer, albeit at 120g weight penalty which seems worth it.

    No overall weights quoted.

    What's the latest on the drag of flat-mount disc brakes?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 470 ✭✭Zen0


    One disadvantage of discs which I have just realised it's that fixing a broken spoke on the disc side becomes more complex. It wouldn't necessarily put me off discs, but I have yet to do the job. Maybe I should get an emergency spoke.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Alek


    Coming down from the Kilmashogue lane today, 18% gradient, in the dark and wet, with a blind bend at the end, I realised I can probably fry any rim brake wheels you throw at me in a week of this kind of cycling.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,218 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Zen0 wrote: »
    One disadvantage of discs which I have just realised it's that fixing a broken spoke on the disc side becomes more complex. It wouldn't necessarily put me off discs, but I have yet to do the job. Maybe I should get an emergency spoke.
    On the other hand disc wheels have so many spokes the wheel is unlikely to go far out of true, and even if it does you won't get brake rub.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    I suppose one advantage of disc brakes is that you can use full carbon clincher rims without the associated danger of cooking them, but feck me, 1770g is a bit porky, isn't it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Aero wheels are generally heavier than non-aero rims...

    For example: Zipp 404 Firecrest Carbon Clinchers have claimed weights of 725g and 895g (1,620g total)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭xxyyzz


    lethal, nobody told this guy unfortunately
    https://twitter.com/philmaertens/status/838846885133701121


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    Alek wrote: »
    Coming down from the Kilmashogue lane today, 18% gradient, in the dark and wet, with a blind bend at the end, I realised I can probably fry any rim brake wheels you throw at me in a week of this kind of cycling.

    I know it sounds crazy but you could always choose another hill when its wet and dark.

    Unless you were out looking for a problem to apply your clunky and expensive solution to....in which case carry on ;)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Alek


    Unless you were out looking for a problem to apply your clunky and expensive solution to....in which case carry on

    Very smart.

    I wanted to do 5 reps of the hill before work, so I did. This meant starting in the dark.

    Having rim brakes wouldn't really stop me (pun not intended), as I ride hills most often, but I probably go through aluminium hoops in higher rate than I change worn out rotors now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭benneca1


    I always used discs on MTB but on my road bike discs are solving  a problem which does not exist I can descend with the best and honestly the problem never was that I wasnt able to slow the wheel the problem always is will the tyre hold. with MTB unitl V brakes came you couldnt even slow the wheel on a wet day and after v brakes you went through rims for sport wicklo mud and brake pads seems to be very abrasive, None of this applies on road. Nonetheless marketeers think we should have them so we will (they are noisy bastards on the road too because I think road spray has more oily material in it than what you encounter off road)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Alek


    on my road bike discs are solving a problem which does not exist

    My road bike gets ridden on many very narrow and often steep back roads in the mountains, with bushes or walls on both sides.. Going downhill, even cautiously, and being able to break before the oncoming car is something worth considering...
    wasnt able to slow the wheel the problem always is will the tyre hold.

    This is why road disc calipers don't have the MTB power / grab. And also why I run 35mm tyres on my (all)road bike.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    benneca1 wrote: »
    I always used discs on MTB but on my road bike discs are solving  a problem which does not exist I can descend with the best and honestly the problem never was that I wasnt able to slow the wheel the problem always is will the tyre hold.

    That sounds like an opinion based on experience! :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 365 ✭✭Cerdito


    I just built a Surly LHT for touring. Had the choice of rim or disc brakes. I went with rim brakes over disc brakes myself for the following reasons:

    Cost saving - disc brake components are more expensive. I also already had a set of wheels (Mavic rims w/ Deore hubs) that were rim brake models.

    Complexity - I can adjust rim brakes in my sleep. Disc brakes can be fiddly to adjust and optimize. I had disc on an MTB before and I couldn't get them to stop rubbing/squealing

    Flying with bike - I plan to fly with my bike to the start of a tour. Disc's are another component that can get damaged (e.g. bent rotors). Rim brakes v. unlikely to be damaged and an easy swap if they are

    I have never had an issue stopping with rim brakes, even fully loaded in the wet (25kg+). There seems to be a drive to add complexity to the simplistic beauty of the bicycle and this gives rise to things like disc brakes and electronic groupsets that require special support systems.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 470 ✭✭Zen0


    Lumen wrote: »
    On the other hand disc wheels have so many spokes the wheel is unlikely to go far out of true, and even if it does you won't get brake rub.

    True. In fact I rode 100km on the broken spoke at the weekend and only noticed towards the end. It was only when I spotted the damage that I realised what the ping sound I had heard earlier was. Luckily the wheel didn't collapse.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Cerdito wrote: »
    Flying with bike - I plan to fly with my bike to the start of a tour. Disc's are another component that can get damaged (e.g. bent rotors). Rim brakes v. unlikely to be damaged and an easy swap if they are.

    Likely if you're using a cardboard box!

    The discs can always be removed if someone is worried the discs may bend, otherwise in a decent bike bag there's no issue, and stick a bit of cardboard between the pads if worried about pads sticking..simple..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 470 ✭✭Zen0


    So after 12 pages of debate, the answer is pretty clear. Discs all the way :)

    Mods, can we lock this thread now before it reaches the size of the helmet thread ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    Zen0 wrote: »
    So after 12 pages of debate, the answer is pretty clear. Discs all the way :)

    Well, that would be in line with the mass delusion the bike industry has successfully perpetrated upon impressionable road cyclists.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Injury caused to Francisco Ventoso, which occurred
    after an incident during the Paris-Roubaix in 2016 not due to disc brakes:


    http://www.wfsgi.org/system/files/2017-02/Report_DiscBrakes_UZollinger.pdf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,792 ✭✭✭cython


    Tenzor07 wrote: »
    Injury caused to Francisco Ventoso, which occurred
    after an incident during the Paris-Roubaix in 2015, not due to disc brakes:


    http://www.wfsgi.org/system/files/2017-02/Report_DiscBrakes_UZollinger.pdf

    It may seem like a triviality, but the glaring error of the letter claiming that an incident from PR 2016 happened in 2015 doesn't provide the best first impression of the expert, all other aspects aside.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    Tenzor07 wrote: »
    Injury caused to Francisco Ventoso, which occurred
    after an incident during the Paris-Roubaix in 2015, not due to disc brakes:


    http://www.wfsgi.org/system/files/2017-02/Report_DiscBrakes_UZollinger.pdf

    Hmm. So a private and expensive consultancy provides an analysis in support of the safety of disc brakes?

    You wouldn't want to be cynical about the power of commercial interests.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭xxyyzz


    OleRodrigo wrote: »
    Hmm. So a private and expensive consultancy provides an analysis in support of the safety of disc brakes?

    You wouldn't want to be cynical about the power of commercial interests.

    Well that and the fact that the other bike would have to have been going in the opposite direction for the rotor to somehow contact his left leg.

    He made an utter tool of himself and I suspect Doull is in the same boat.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    xxyyzz wrote: »
    Well that and the fact that the other bike would have to have been going in the opposite direction for the rotor to somehow contact his left leg.

    He made an utter tool of himself and I suspect Doull is in the same boat.

    What would their motive be for lying ?

    Maybe they really dislike disc brakes and lied out of childish insolence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭xxyyzz


    OleRodrigo wrote: »
    What would their motive be for lying ?

    Maybe they really dislike disc brakes and lied out of childish insolence.

    Your trolling leaves a bit to be desired.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    OleRodrigo wrote: »
    Hmm. So a private and expensive consultancy provides an analysis in support of the safety of disc brakes?

    You wouldn't want to be cynical about the power of commercial interests.

    There is so much hyperbole around this topic, some of it in this thread, that it's hard to know whether you are being serious or not.

    To me the analysis is not "in support of the safety of disc brakes", it just concludes that they were an unlikely cause of the injury in this case. If you disagree with their conclusion it would be interesting to hear why.

    And if we are being generally facetious and/or conspiracy theorists then I suspect we'd get more mileage out of claiming that that analysis is actually secretly funded by the people behind the Gates Carbon Drive System, trying to cast aspersions on the dangers of conventional toothed blades on the vast majority of bikes (their chainrings have teeth too, but they are hippy teeth and spread peace, not war).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    doozerie wrote: »
    There is so much hyperbole around this topic, some of it in this thread, that it's hard to know whether you are being serious or not.

    To me the analysis is not "in support of the safety of disc brakes", it just concludes that they were an unlikely cause of the injury in this case. If you disagree with their conclusion it would be interesting to hear why.

    And if we are being generally facetious and/or conspiracy theorists then I suspect we'd get more mileage out of claiming that that analysis is actually secretly funded by the people behind the Gates Carbon Drive System, trying to cast aspersions on the dangers of conventional toothed blades on the vast majority of bikes (their chainrings have teeth too, but they are hippy teeth and spread peace, not war).

    Bumped into Mrs.Doozerie yesterday on the Tara 200

    Can I just say that:
    1. Disc brakes are awesome
    2. I suck and have no taste.
    3. See number 1


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    OleRodrigo wrote: »
    Bumped into Mrs.Doozerie yesterday on the Tara 200

    Can I just say that:
    1. Disc brakes are awesome
    2. I suck and have no taste.
    3. See number 1

    Sounds like you cracked in cross examination...:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    ford2600 wrote: »
    Sounds like you cracked in cross examination...:D

    Too right !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,556 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    I'm having to change my wheels, and am considering an upgrade. Nice additional whack on the likes of Zondas for disc brake versions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    I'm having to upgrade my wheels, and am considering an upgrade. Nice additional whack on the likes of Zondas for disc brake versions.

    Olerodrigo is after cracking.

    Buy the Zondas, fit them with your shimano groupset and go for a spin with gaa shorts and a swimming cap. Post up a photo then and he'll probably have a stroke


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,218 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    I rode my rim braked bike yesterday for the first time in about a year.

    It was really surprising to find how uncomfortable the ride quality was compared to my disc braked bike.

    This reminds me that road brakes of all types just work and there are more important things to drive a bike purchase.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 777 ✭✭✭dvntie


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    To improve your descending skills, you've got to learn NOT to use your brakes. IMO Overuse of the brakes (rim or disc) will not improve your descending.

    This is me descending Col De Galibier....https://youtu.be/jHL45P1w45g

    I'm not the fastest descender but you'll note that I don't brake too often...the trick is to try and NOT use your brakes.

    And if you are to use your brakes the rear brake is to slow down the front is to stop.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭benneca1


    "There seems to be a drive to add complexity to the simplistic beauty of the bicycle and this gives rise to things like disc brakes and electronic groupsets that require special support systems."
    Ah but elecronic groupsets look cool and no ugly cables :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,098 ✭✭✭NamelessPhil


    OleRodrigo wrote: »
    Bumped into Mrs.Doozerie yesterday on the Tara 200

    Can I just say that:
    1. Disc brakes are awesome
    2. I suck and have no taste.
    3. See number 1

    Ahem, that'll be Ms. NamelessPhil to you! I didn't take his Boards name when we married.

    Disc brakes are awesome on an Audax bike, I have rim brakes on the road bike and commuter bike and I find them twitchy and hand-cramping in comparison. That's a nice Genesis equilibrium that you have that could only be improved by disc brakes.😀


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