Disc vs Rim brakes

xxyyzz

doozerie wrote: »

In a similar vein, decent road rim caliper brakes require very little maintenance too (by contrast, I've always found cantilevers and v-brakes to require regular tweaks and adjustment and when needed it was always fiddly and tedious).

To take an extreme case, I'm still using the same set of brake pads and cables on my (road) race bike for about 7 years now and they are still working very well without any adjustments needed on the levers or calipers in all that time. Those brakes don't get subjected to the same harsh conditions as an off-road bike would, although I have ridden that bike in all sorts of weather, but basically they fall squarely within the definition of "little or no maintenance brakes that work extremely well".

Basically, as I see it, the ideal brakes are the ones that work best for you and since everyone is different then what constitutes "work best" varies from one person to another. For some people that'll be disc brakes, for others it'll be rim brakes. And thankfully we get to choose (although that's less and less of an option with MTB's I guess). So I take no side in the argument of whether discs are better than rim brakes, there is no one size(/shape) fits all as far as I am concerned.

My personal preference for my road bikes remains rim brakes. That may change, but in the meantime I'll only start to get really fired up on the topic if manufacturers start to eliminate rim-brake bikes from their range. I'm stocking up on righteous anger ahead of that.

You make good points, however to make an informed decision you need to try both systems and this is why so much derision is being poured on some of the anti-disc brake comments you would see on various forums. It's blatantly clear that most people who give out about them haven't a rashers about them and have the temerity to tell mtber's that they are wrong even though they have never used them. I have SRAM Force rim brakes on my roadbike and they are decent but I wouldn't trust my life with them the way I would with disc brakes on my mtb because they just are not in the same league. A lot of the noise out there seems to be more from an irrational fear of change than having valid well thought out argument against them.

youtheman

xxyyzz wrote: »

doozerie wrote: »

In a similar vein, decent road rim caliper brakes require very little maintenance too (by contrast, I've always found cantilevers and v-brakes to require regular tweaks and adjustment and when needed it was always fiddly and tedious).

To take an extreme case,  I'm still using the same set of brake pads and cables on my (road) race bike for about 7 years now and they are still working very well without any adjustments needed on the levers or calipers in all that time. Those brakes don't get subjected to the same harsh conditions as an off-road bike would, although I have ridden that bike in all sorts of weather, but basically they fall squarely within the definition of "little or no maintenance brakes that work extremely well".

Basically, as I see it, the ideal brakes are the ones that work best for you and since everyone is different then what constitutes "work best" varies from one person to another. For some people that'll be disc brakes, for others it'll be rim brakes. And thankfully we get to choose (although that's less and less of an option with MTB's I guess). So I take no side in the argument of whether discs are better than rim brakes, there is no one size(/shape) fits all as far as I am concerned.

My personal preference for my road bikes remains rim brakes. That may change, but in the meantime I'll only start to get really fired up on the topic if manufacturers start to eliminate rim-brake bikes from their range. I'm stocking up on righteous anger ahead of that.

You make good points, however to make an informed decision you need to try both systems and this is why so much derision is being poured on some of the anti-disc brake comments you would see on various forums. It's blatantly clear that most people who give out about them haven't a rashers about them and have the temerity to tell mtber's that they are wrong even though they have never used them. I have SRAM Force rim brakes on my roadbike and they are decent but I wouldn't trust my life with them the way I would with disc brakes on my mtb because they just are not in the same league. A lot of the noise out there seems to be more from an irrational fear of change than having valid well thought out argument against them.

Totally agree with you.  Reminds me of the e-voting debacle.  A new technology is available, and has clear advantages over the old system.  But the majority just do not want to even contemplate 'going there', so the project is stymied.

magicbastarder

cython wrote: »

Out of interest, how do you find that hybrid system?

actually, i did at one point take a bike with 105 full hydraulic brakes for a five minute test spin, and it may have just been a case of not being used to them, but the hoods did seem strangely long - i guess they're bigger to allow for the hydraulic reservoir.

jamesd

magicbastarder wrote: »

actually, i did at one point take a bike with 105 full hydraulic brakes for a five minute test spin, and it may have just been a case of not being used to them, but the hoods did seem strangely long - i guess they're bigger to allow for the hydraulic reservoir.

Yes the 105 hoods for hydraulic are extra bit, the ultegra are a nice size.

andy69

I don't think it's fair of the disc brake 'Fanboys' to lump all opposition to disc brakes into the one label, as if we were all Luddites or something!

Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but certainly in my case it comes down to aesthetics primarily*.

To me I think they look awful, and I mean absolutely fcuk ugly in my opinion. Like a lopsided clusterfcuk sticking out one side of the bike, and those brake calipers look like a tumour or something!
And don't even get me started on the ridiculous over-sized stupid looking brake hoods! (although in fairness the new Dura Ace groupset has now made their ones look like normal, proper, brake hoods now so that's a step in the right direction at least)

I don't care how amazing they might be over my already perfectly fine rim brakes, I just can't stand to look at them on a road bike.
Another thing that doesn't help me is that I see some manufacturers made no modifications to the forks or seat stays...it's like the manufacturers just
closed up the little holes for proper brakes and left it at that - now they just look like something is missing over the wheels.


*followed closely by the sheer awkwardness of them, as seen on another thread here recently where people were even being advised to put
their brake pads into an oven and heat them at x-degrees for x-minutes for example, just to get them to stop squeeling! Not to mention
having to deal with the disposal of the hydraulic fluid after the job of bleeding them - add in all this talk about having to balance them and it just puts me right off.


Sorry fanboys, but a LONG way to go before I'll be convinced. The fact that nothing was wrong to begin with isn't helping the introduction of them - basically I see them as a 'solution looking for a problem'.

magicbastarder

youtheman wrote: »

Totally agree with you.  Reminds me of the e-voting debacle.  A new technology is available, and has clear advantages over the old system.  But the majority just do not want to even contemplate 'going there', so the project is stymied.

e-voting has clear disadvantages over the old system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI

youtheman

magicbastarder wrote: »

youtheman wrote: »

Totally agree with you.  Reminds me of the e-voting debacle.  A new technology is available, and has clear advantages over the old system.  But the majority just do not want to even contemplate 'going there', so the project is stymied.

e-voting has clear disadvantages over the old system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI

You just proved my point.  As my late father used to say "It was like listening to the Chairman of the Flat Earth Society".

Lumen

youtheman wrote: »

You just proved my point.  As my late father used to say "It was like listening to the Chairman of the Flat Earth Society".

How does that prove your point?

Nobody who understands technology thinks that e-voting is a good idea.

smacl

xxyyzz wrote: »

I have SRAM Force rim brakes on my roadbike and they are decent but I wouldn't trust my life with them the way I would with disc brakes on my mtb because they just are not in the same league.

I think a large part of it is knowing how the brakes are going to behave rather than leaving anything to trust. I've disc brakes on my CX bike which is currently my go to bike for most spins, and Veloce rim brakes on the older road bike. I know if I'm descending in the rain on the rim brakes to give them a light squeeze to wipe the rims before expecting them to be at their best, similarly I know if I go hard on the on the rear disc brake I'm going to lock the wheel and skid.

smacl

andy69 wrote: »

Sorry fanboys, but a LONG way to go before I'll be convinced. The fact that nothing was wrong to begin with isn't helping the introduction of them - basically I see them as a 'solution looking for a problem'.

Tend to agree with this regards road bikes, but once you start looking at anything with wider tyres, disc brakes have a firm advantage. Outside of MTBs, disc brakes are a good solution for tourers, CX, gravel bike and hybrids. As for aesthetics, Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, get it out with Optrex

fat bloke

I think the e-voting parallel refers to the reaction time of rim brakes v's disc brakes in wet weather. With rim brakes you pull the brakes and, as with conventional voting systems, you get a definitive response the following day. Whereas with e-voting and hydraulic disc braking, the outcome is immediately known.

OleRodrigo

Not sure the wet weather scenario holds up to scrutiny either. How fast do you need to be going in order to benefit from the stopping power of discs ? My back o the envelope calculations suggest much faster than the average commuting speed with a rider weight of well over 90 kilos. Even then the benefit is marginal.

I have single front brake on my fixed gear that has served me well commuting in Dublin since 2013, over almost 25000 km. A lot of stopping and starting coming through the city center every day. The rim has plenty of life left and when it is replaced, sometime next year, it will cost 70 euro. That works out at 14 euro per year for the rim.

ford2600

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Not sure the wet weather scenario holds up to scrutiny either. How fast do you need to be going in order to benefit from the stopping power of discs ? My back o the envelope calculations suggest much faster than the average commuting speed with a rider weight of well over 90 kilos. Even then the benefit is marginal.

I have single front brake on my fixed gear that has served me well commuting in Dublin since 2013, over almost 25000 km. A lot of stopping and starting coming through the city center every day. The rim has plenty of life left and when it is replaced, sometime next year, it will cost 70 euro. That works out at 14 euro per year for the rim.

Ahem...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101459976&postcount=27

OleRodrigo

ford2600 wrote: »

Ahem...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101459976&postcount=27

An experiment to show riding without a brake was safe. Have since switched back to a brake

AndrewJRenko

youtheman wrote: »

Totally agree with you.  Reminds me of the e-voting debacle.  A new technology is available, and has clear advantages over the old system. 

What were the advantages of the proposed eVoting system?

Chuchote

I have driven without brakes in my time, when I discovered that the brakes weren't working and had to use the gears to get the car to safety. It certainly increased my alertness and road awareness.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What were the advantages of the proposed eVoting system?

More exact, less human error, faster. Despite the fact that it was used in the same way as the human counting method - take out random piles, rather than counting every vote; it was a method kind of like making a blueprint by painstakingly colouring in the blue bits so as to leave the white lines white.

Main reason it was scrapped (imho) was that it took away the sadistic, schadenfreude-filled gloating fun that is the Irish proportional representation election count. The first person to discover themselves voted out in a shock turnaround - five minutes after the vote count started - collapsed in floods of tears and had to be taken to a side room and comforted.

AndrewJRenko

Chuchote wrote: »

More exact, less human error, faster. Despite the fact that it was used in the same way as the human counting method - take out random piles, rather than counting every vote; it was a method kind of like making a blueprint by painstakingly colouring in the blue bits so as to leave the white lines white.

Main reason it was scrapped (imho) was that it took away the sadistic, schadenfreude-filled gloating fun that is the Irish proportional representation election count. The first person to discover themselves voted out in a shock turnaround - five minutes after the vote count started - collapsed in floods of tears and had to be taken to a side room and comforted.

How exactly was it 'more exact'? How do you have any security that the vote choices entered by the voter are what is stored in the machine and counted at the end of the day?

And what kind of 'human error' are you referring to, given that almost every count operation in the manual occurs under the watchful scrutiny of interested players from some/all parties?

And as for 'faster' - how is that a benefit? What particular benefit arises from knowing the result on Friday night instead of on Saturday night?

smacl

That's decided so. Definitely not getting electronic voting on my next bike

magicbastarder

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

How exactly was it 'more exact'? How do you have any security that the vote choices entered by the voter are what is stored in the machine and counted at the end of the day?

What chucote said is not wrong. More exact and less human error in the voting booth itself in that the machine could theoretically confirm your choices before you submit. Still nowhere near useful enough to override the major concerns.

AndrewJRenko

magicbastarder wrote: »

What chucote said is not wrong. More exact and less human error in the voting booth itself in that the machine could theoretically confirm your choices before you submit. Still nowhere near useful enough to override the major concerns.

How is it 'more exact'? How do you know that the vote recorded/counted is exactly the vote entered?

CrowdedHouse

Ah lads...

diarmaidol

Comparing eVoting to Disk Brakes is all kinds of wrong.

Disks make carbon wheels a sensible investment. The Pros should listen to a major sections of their industry that pays their way, They are safer as a whole.

magicbastarder

diarmaidol wrote: »

Comparing eVoting to Disk Brakes is all kinds of wrong.

Agreed. Disc brakes are closer in concept to the invention of the mechanical loom and the resulting mass changes in employment patterns and population movement, resulting in the new lower classes.

Lumen

diarmaidol wrote: »

Disks make carbon wheels a sensible investment

Not sure if serious.

diarmaidol

Lumen wrote: »

Not sure if serious.

In a relative sense. If you have a grand to drop on wheels and want the best. People do, I don't.

Spending a grand on a set of wheels and using them as a braking surface is nuts. Fine if you ain't paying for em. When you are? Yes you can swap out the rim but thats more expense.

Disk wheels have a disposable disk.

Take the view of the bike industry and how they want to make money. It's better for them to sell a product with lower risk because all the braking heat issues are basically gone, you get a more durable product and you should sell more expensive wheels with better margin.

This isn't a carbon v ALU discussion, the same applies either way.

OleRodrigo

The thing we can all take away from this, is that with the right language you can rationalize anything.

OleRodrigo

magicbastarder wrote: »

Agreed. Disc brakes are closer in concept to the invention of the mechanical loom and the resulting mass changes in employment patterns and population movement, resulting in the new lower classes.

How many toots on a crack pipe did you have before coming up with that one?

Lumen

Interesting to see how Ribble are marketing their rim/disc builds.

RIBBLE AERO 883 DISC, Recommended Build: €3,360
http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-aero-883-disc/

RIBBLE AERO 883, Recommended Build: €2,897
http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-aero-883/

The rim-braked version is cheaper but comes with manky alloy wheels at 1650g claimed.

The disc version has full carbon wheels but they weigh 1770g claimed.

So the advantage of discs is that for the same amount of deep section, the wheels last longer, albeit at 120g weight penalty which seems worth it.

No overall weights quoted.

What's the latest on the drag of flat-mount disc brakes?

Zen0

One disadvantage of discs which I have just realised it's that fixing a broken spoke on the disc side becomes more complex. It wouldn't necessarily put me off discs, but I have yet to do the job. Maybe I should get an emergency spoke.

Alek

Coming down from the Kilmashogue lane today, 18% gradient, in the dark and wet, with a blind bend at the end, I realised I can probably fry any rim brake wheels you throw at me in a week of this kind of cycling.