Smart home heating system to work with Alexa

yak

Hi,

I'm wondering if someone could help recommend a good home heating system that can be incorporated to work with Amazons Alexa?

I currently have a gas fired boiler (about 3years old) but it's got almost no flexibility when it comes to heating timers etc meaning that I need to run the heat 24/7 at a low setting to keep the house warm (as I have a 5 month old baby).

Ideally I'd like to be able to set each room independently - 3 bedrooms/sitting room/kitchen diner but not sure it's possible.....

I don't have any particular budget in mind so would be open to a more expensive system if it's actually worth it.

Thanks in advance,

Liam

Roen

yak wrote: »

Hi,

I'm wondering if someone could help recommend a good home heating system that can be incorporated to work with Amazons Alexa?

I currently have a gas fired boiler (about 3years old) but it's got almost no flexibility when it comes to heating timers etc meaning that I need to run the heat 24/7 at a low setting to keep the house warm (as I have a 5 month old baby).

Ideally I'd like to be able to set each room independently - 3 bedrooms/sitting room/kitchen diner but not sure it's possible.....

I don't have any particular budget in mind so would be open to a more expensive system if it's actually worth it.

Thanks in advance,

Liam

Does your house have zones already? I'm guessing not as you say you have no control. By zones I mean can you turn on upstairs heating and have downstairs off and vice versa. Or just have hot water and no heat.

I have Hive working with Alexa. I've used it once to see did it work and that was that.
It's pretty much a set and forget device for me and if I'm away from home I can control via the app if needs be.
However if your use case for it includes voice control then yes, I can confirm it'll work.

In terms of controlling individual rooms you'd either be looking at getting mechanised TRVs or opting for dumb ones, which you may already have depending on your installation. Hive don't have these mechanised TRVs yet but some others do. They've been at the development stage for a long, long time. Lots of complaining on the Hive forum about the time they are taking.

Off the top of my head I think Nest and Netatmo have them available but you'd need to confirm that.

The one solution that will work for sure for room by room control is Honeywell Evo Home. You can add the TRVs one at at time as budget allows or for best value they have a pack that includes 8 TRVs. Unfortunately it's also the most expensive solution that I know of and I'm not sure if that will work with Alexa.

You could use good old fashioned dumb TRVs too though and just dial them up or down manually, leaving the baby areas warmer than the rest of the house.

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along with more options but for now it's something to go on.
Good luck!

Quick edit. Lightwave RF have the TRVs too.

listermint

Is your house insulated? Seems to be an Irish thing to throw money at heating when in fact the heating should be on for small periods and the heat is retained by insulation.

There is grants available that are very good. You should consider getting the house wrapped in external wall insulation. It's a comfort and cost investment that will last a lifetime tbh

yak

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the feedback!

AFAIK the house isn't zoned, it's about 16 years old but I've never seen/set heat for upstairs/downstairs only. I can set the immersion, but believe that's electric rather than off the gas mains (like the heat is).

I had heard/read that some of the TVRs can be noisey which is something I'd like to avoid...

i assume hive etc can be worked off one/two thermostats? But I'm wondering can they (hive etc) be integrated with any gas boilers?

Thanks,

Liam

Roen

Hi Liam,

Hive was designed by British Gas to work with gas boilers, it also works with the majority of oil boilers too (like mine). Hive can do one thermostat, one with water, two thermostats or two thermostats with water, so you'd be covered if you had zoned heating. As you don't have zoned you'd only need the one thermostat.

It sounds like your set up is like mine. Just a boiler with no thermostat controlling it and no zones. I got the single Hive thermostat and wired it in with a friend who is an electrician. It is just a fancy switch at the end of the day.

Have a read of this thread and be aware that there's some hoops to jump through in terms of registering for an account.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057668115

I think Bord Gais were doing an install offer there before Christmas, might still be doing it if you don't fancy having a go yourself.

I think the earlier LightwaveRF TRVs were noisy, but were improved with a recall and a firmware update.
There's a guy called Rolion that has a Honeywell system installed and seems to be getting on well with it. You might track down some of his posts in the Plumbing and Heating forum.

Actually, check this post in particular: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101642357&postcount=38

Stoner

yak wrote:

I had heard/read that some of the TVRs can be noisey which is something I'd like to avoid...

They are all loud.

But you get used to it. If you've no zones on your house you'll be relying on very limited temp switching unless you try something like this . I'm used to mine.

yak

Stoner wrote: »

They are all loud.

But you get used to it. If you've no zones on your house you'll be relying on very limited temp switching unless you try something like this . I'm used to mine.

Thanks - both my wife and the baby are VERY light sleepers so it's the impact rather than the noise im worried about!!

Stoner

yak wrote:

Thanks - both my wife and the baby are VERY light sleepers so it's the impact rather than the noise im worried about!!

Ok that's something I guess.

I don't have the heating on at night.

I moved the primary lightwaverf stat to the babys room last year he's 18 months now and keeps a blanket on him.

But it set it to turn on of the temp dropped below 17 degrees in his room. I think it was called in once. I have external insulation on my house and it was very rarely called in .

Nelbert

Perhaps someone can tell me if my "smart" heating plan is overly simplistic.....

I planned to replace current valves on my radiators with these or similar....
http://www.homebots.ie/product/comet-z-wave-radiator-thermostat/

Then have my z-wave hub trigger the heating on if any of the temps drop below a certain level. And have valves close open / close on certain thresholds etc.

Is there anything else I'd need given I have a Vera Edge already I had thought this was a "quick" swap of the valves and happy out?

Stoner

Nelbert wrote:

Then have my z-wave hub trigger the heating on if any of the temps drop below a certain level. And have valves close open / close on certain thresholds etc.

That's about what I have , don't know those TRVs though. Have you looked a the Honeywell ones .

paulbok

Nelbert wrote: »

Perhaps someone can tell me if my "smart" heating plan is overly simplistic.....

I planned to replace current valves on my radiators with these or similar....
http://www.homebots.ie/product/comet-z-wave-radiator-thermostat/

Then have my z-wave hub trigger the heating on if any of the temps drop below a certain level. And have valves close open / close on certain thresholds etc.

Is there anything else I'd need given I have a Vera Edge already I had thought this was a "quick" swap of the valves and happy out?

I have a similar setup with Honeywell Evohome heating control.
There is a central controller (I've it wall mounted), a boiler relay, hot water kit, wifi hub and several radiator controllers like your one above which fit directly onto your trv, which allows wireless individual room control & separate hot water control.
Not cheap though, approx cost of all this was around €750.
Good scheduling possible via the app or controller.

Has it's own app and is compatible with IFTTT & Alexa (via the evohome skill). Can be enabled with Samsung smartthings via a device handler, official support is "coming soon" for over a year now.

beanian

paulbok wrote: »

Not cheap though, approx cost of all this was around €750.

That's cheap compared to the quotes I've been getting! €1300 installed including discounts and grants from ESB.
I take it you installed this yourself? Is it a straightforward install?

paulbok

beanian wrote: »

That's cheap compared to the quotes I've been getting! €1300 installed including discounts and grants from ESB.
I take it you installed this yourself? Is it a straightforward install?

I got an electrician to run power to where the control unit is wall mounted *, but this also has a plug in charger & stand so you could leave it on a cupboard instead. he also fitted the boiler relay but you could wire this to your existing yourself if you are anyways handy with such work.
I had to cut a small hole in the insulation around the hot water tank to allow contact with the sensor for it, but that was easy enough.
The trv controllers just fit down on the valves once you remove the manual controller (twists off) and they communicate wirelessly to the controller.
The system doesn't need an internet connection to work, the controller (control panel), relay and valves all communicate among themselves, but you do need the hub plugged into your router to allow external app control. I think there is a different controller available that has an inbuilt wifi gateway so you wouldn't need a hub.


* I fitted my controller in my living room and it could have worked as thermostat for that room, but to control the radiator I also needed a trv controller, so I intend to move it to the hallway at some stage.
I have a solid fuel back boiler as well as the oil boiler, so I needed too leave some radiators uncontrolled (not even a trv) as an escape route for excess heat in the water system from the stove. I left the bathroom and the 3 rads in the hall uncontrolled, so currently have no temp readings from those rooms, moving the controller will allow some control of the temperature (if hall gets too cold -can fire up the boiler to heat them all).

If you have a lot of rads to put controllers on, there are bundles of 4 available (starter kit has 3 with the controller) rather than buying individually.

I like the Evohome system, as mentioned before you can set up lots of heating schedules quite easily for every room.
My biggest gripe with it is this though;
There are a few different options to switch off or reduce the heating, say if you are away there is a quick option to put all controllers down to 15 degrees. But there is no boost option if the house gets cold to say, up all or individual controllers by 3 degrees for an hour.

Irish Gunner

What controllers do you have? I have a Netatmo installed and was looking at  their Additional smart radiator valve but they are not available yet. Would like to look at any that can be controlled remotely and work with Alexa. Not sure if any available?

yak

I had originally opted for Honeywell until I realised what it would cost to have installed (inc 8 trvs)... about 1800 (including a 600 grant), moving to electric Ireland would save another 350 but seriously!?!? The kit for install can be gotten for about €800 so it equates to about 1000 for installation...

Other option I was looking at was the hive so I've two options...

See if I can get a "base" install of Honeywell (no trvs) or to go for hive...

Question I have is if hive is going to turn out to be limited... that I can't expand it with trvs or similar - do does anyone know...?

garion

yak wrote: »

I had originally opted for Honeywell until I realised what it would cost to have installed (inc 8 trvs)... about 1800 (including a 600 grant), moving to electric Ireland would save another 350 but seriously!?!? The kit for install can be gotten for about €800 so it equates to about 1000 for installation...

Other option I was looking at was the hive so I've two options...

See if I can get a "base" install of Honeywell (no trvs) or to go for hive...

Question I have is if hive is going to turn out to be limited... that I can't expand it with trvs or similar - do does anyone know...?

Would you not just get an electrician to install it for you? I bought the controller, hot water add on and 8 TRVs for about E800 delivered. I'm just waiting on my local sparks to install it for me.
I've been told it'll be 1/2 a day's work to install so should be around E900 in total - or 1/2 the price of getting it through Electric Ireland or whoever.

yak

garion wrote: »

Would you not just get an electrician to install it for you? I bought the controller, hot water add on and 8 TRVs for about E800 delivered. I'm just waiting on my local sparks to install it for me.
I've been told it'll be 1/2 a day's work to install so should be around E900 in total - or 1/2 the price of getting it through Electric Ireland or whoever.

This might be a stupid question... is it an electrician or a plumber to do the switch and trv installs? I thought it would have been a plumber....

Roen

yak wrote: »

This might be a stupid question... is it an electrician or a plumber to do the switch and trv installs? I thought it would have been a plumber....

I used to work as a plumbers mate and our company had a full time electrician on the job for wiring in boilers and controls etc. We were a large company so maybe we warranted one. Think it was about 14 plumbers at one stage.
We did the plumbing side and he did the electrical side.

I think an rgii is qualified to do some electrical work but I'm really not sure on that. It's a long, long time since I was in that field.

So for me it's either an rgii or both a spark and a plumber.

I take it you'd be unhappy going the DIY route? Can't blame you. They're two things not to be messed with aside from any house insurance issues.

yak

Roen wrote: »

I used to work as a plumbers mate and our company had a full time electrician on the job for wiring in boilers and controls etc. We were a large company so maybe we warranted one. Think it was about 14 plumbers at one stage.
We did the plumbing side and he did the electrical side.

I think an rgii is qualified to do some electrical work but I'm really not sure on that. It's a long, long time since I was in that field.

So for me it's either an rgii or both a spark and a plumber.

I take it you'd be unhappy going the DIY route? Can't blame you. They're two things not to be messed with aside from any house insurance issues.

Ya I reckon I'd be happier having someone do then... 1000 is a big push to do it myself but just not I'd be happy/comfortable 😒

paulbok

yak wrote: »

This might be a stupid question... is it an electrician or a plumber to do the switch and trv installs? I thought it would have been a plumber....

It's a electric install only, no messing with water unless you have no existing manual controlled trv valves on your rads. so as long as the electrician knows how a boiler control is wired up you are safe.

yak

paulbok wrote: »

It's a electric install only, no messing with water unless you have no existing manual controlled trv valves on your rads. so as long as the electrician knows how a boiler control is wired up you are safe.

Hi Paul,

Rads all have the old fashioned (20 year old) white twist knobs... Im not sure they count as trvs or am I over complicating things? I associated trvs with bigger knows with various settings (1-7) or are mine just older trvs?

paulbok

yak wrote: »

Hi Paul,

Rads all have the old fashioned (20 year old) white twist knobs... Im not sure they count as trvs or am I over complicating things? I associated trvs with bigger knows with various settings (1-7) or are mine just older trvs?

from what you describe, it does sound like a non-trv valve, can you post a picture of the valves on each side of one of your rads?
if so you will need to buy trv's for each rad, I think they are around €16 each, and then get a plumber to drain the system and fit the trvs.
can be done before or after the electrician wires up the controlled and boiler relay for you- the trv controllers are wireless so you just unscrew the manual controller (the 1-7 piece you know of) and replace with the new ones, pairing each with the controller.

Stoner

paulbok wrote:

from what you describe, it does sound like a non-trv valve, can you post a picture of the valves on each side of one of your rads? if so you will need to buy trv's for each rad, I think they are around €16 each, and then get a plumber to drain the system and fit the trvs. can be done before or after the electrician wires up the controlled and boiler relay for you- the trv controllers are wireless so you just unscrew the manual controller (the 1-7 piece you know of) and replace with the new ones, pairing each with the controller.

This is good advice but I'd like to add something.

Once the manual TRVs are in place you can add home av wireless ones, however you have to watch to make sure that the manual TRVs you select can be changed easily with your choice of future automated unit.

I found that Myson units were a straight swap for lightwaverf units without a need for spacing collars or stilts for the full pin activation.

yak

Thanks guy for all the info - greatly appreciate it!

Does this mean that I need trvs (even manual ones) to be able to utilise evohome at all? In other words could I install the evohome controller and use my existing valves as a starting point and replace with manual/controlled trvs at a later point (have boiler come on/off via thermostat or app), or do I need the trvs as well (I'm assuming it's the first but want to be certain!)

I've attached a couple of pics of my existing radiator knobs.

paulbok

yak wrote: »

Thanks guy for all the info - greatly appreciate it!

Does this mean that I need trvs (even manual ones) to be able to utilise evohome at all? In other words could I install the evohome controller and use my existing valves as a starting point and replace with manual/controlled trvs at a later point (have boiler come on/off via thermostat or app), or do I need the trvs as well (I'm assuming it's the first but want to be certain!)

I've attached a couple of pics of my existing radiator knobs.

As you suspected, you definitely have no existing trv's, in the pics are your bog standard turn on/off valve.

Evohome, and other wireless systems only provide a controller, not the actual trv itself, so to control each radiator, you first need to have a manual trv on it , and then replace the top bit with the numbers with your wireless controller and each radiator then becomes a zone for you to control independent of each other.

You can of course use the controller to control the whole system as it currently stands as one zone.
It will just operate as a programmable timer for you. then you can add the trvs and wireless controllers as required (all the manual trvs should be installed by your plumber in one job as it requires emptying the heating system each time - the controllers can be added by yourself, one at a time).



As a note to what Stoner mentioned earlier, the Evohome controllers come with a few different adapters so they will fit most trv's, but it will fit straight onto a M30 x 1.5 trv, so look out for those when buying.

bk

Before going down the route of EvoHome, I'd think seriously first if you actually will go down the route of smart TVR's, because I think EvoHome is only worth it if you do, otherwise Netatmo/Hive/Nest are cheaper and potentially better options.

First remember Smart TVR's are noisy, they may wake you up, etc.

EvoHome will cost a lot:
- £230 for the main basic wifi unit controller
- £100 for hot water control if needed
+ professional install

If you later decide to get the TVR's installed, then it will cost:
- £290 for the smart TVR's
+ plumber to install them.

By comparison a Netatmo costs only €100 (but doesn't support separate hot water cylinder if you need that).

You really need to think about do you actually need individual room control and will you actually use it and will it actually pay for itself eventually.

irishgrover

I've gone for Tado as the best of both worlds (although I have not fully implemented yet)
Currently have 4 zones (1 for each floor and 1 for water) Only the first and second floors have thermostats, the 3rd floor (attic with two rooms, one rad in each) is binary on / off.

I've replaced the two wall thermostats with Tado smart thermostats (they work great, and integrate with Alexa etc). I'd bought, but not yet installed a control for the water, and am in the process of buying 2 rad valves for the 2 rooms on the 3rd floor (which I intent to divide into 2 septerate zones).

Main reason for this 'design' is flexability. I could not afford EvoHome as I have 20+ rads in total. So tado offers a combination of zones + individual controls (via rad stats) and if I want to increase flexability, my plan is to add additional rad stats to individual rooms if/as needed, when I can affort to