FTP and cycle racing.

JK.BMC

InTheAttic wrote: »

This is my first season racing ever and I'm in A4. The more I watch the results in A4, the more sceptical I am of A4 'settling down'. I call bullsh1t on that for the reason that there are a lot of fellas in A4 being coached / training on power and this is resulting in some well trained and powerful riders. The entire A4 group is just going to get stronger with the open races and as the club leagues will be starting shortly. Not sure anyone will agree, but I think the corollary is that it will be harder and harder to get out of it. I know I'm a strong rider myself with very good power. I haven't got my 'racing legs' just yet, but I will have them shortly enough. So will a lot of the other lads in A4. I wonder what the solution is - A new A5 category (will probably never happen)? More points needed to get out of A4? I don't know the answer.

No simple answer

Although practicing how to sprint would be a good starting point

Lumen

InTheAttic wrote: »

This is my first season racing ever and I'm in A4. The more I watch the results in A4, the more sceptical I am of A4 'settling down'. I call bullsh1t on that for the reason that there are a lot of fellas in A4 being coached / training on power and this is resulting in some well trained and powerful riders. The entire A4 group is just going to get stronger with the open races and as the club leagues will be starting shortly. Not sure anyone will agree, but I think the corollary is that it will be harder and harder to get out of it. I know I'm a strong rider myself with very good power. I haven't got my 'racing legs' just yet, but I will have them shortly enough. So will a lot of the other lads in A4. I wonder what the solution is - A new A5 category (will probably never happen)? More points needed to get out of A4? I don't know the answer.

The answer is to target late season races which struggle to attract entries.

edit: anyway, why would you want to "get out of A4" if the racing matches the level you're at?

InTheAttic

JK.BMC wrote: »

No simple answer

Although practicing how to sprint would be a good starting point

Yeh, that right? I bet I could outsprint you

DirkVoodoo

InTheAttic wrote: »

This is my first season racing ever and I'm in A4. The more I watch the results in A4, the more sceptical I am of A4 'settling down'. I call bullsh1t on that for the reason that there are a lot of fellas in A4 being coached / training on power and this is resulting in some well trained and powerful riders. The entire A4 group is just going to get stronger with the open races and as the club leagues will be starting shortly. Not sure anyone will agree, but I think the corollary is that it will be harder and harder to get out of it. I know I'm a strong rider myself with very good power. I haven't got my 'racing legs' just yet, but I will have them shortly enough. So will a lot of the other lads in A4. I wonder what the solution is - A new A5 category (will probably never happen)? More points needed to get out of A4? I don't know the answer.

How would adding an A5 category change anything? Strong riders who dominate A4 races early on tend to be gone fairly quickly. If A4 is made up of a group of extremely strong riders new to racing, this won't change in A5, it just means it will take longer for them to reach A1/2 and each organiser will be under more pressure to fit in all the races on the schedule. We already have massive A1/2 bunches because there aren't separate A1/2 races, so expect to have A4/5 races?

I think Lumen is right, if you can't get out of A4 then it is the correct level for you at the moment, but that doesn't mean you won't ever get out of it or choose races that suit your strengths. Don't be racing the Des if you are around 3.2 W/kg, maybe some flatter races with sprints, multi-days with a TT, etc.

You can't bemoan the riders around you for limiting your progress. They are faster or they are smarter, or both, but they are winning. Excuses don't win races.

Harrybelafonte

InTheAttic wrote: »

Yeh, that right? I bet I could outsprint you

Nice attitude

InTheAttic

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

You can't bemoan the riders around you for limiting your progress. They are faster or they are smarter, or both, but they are winning. Excuses don't win races.

I'm not bemoaning them at all. That's an insinuation. I laud their progress. All I'm saying is that it's a stronger category than people realise.

DirkVoodoo

InTheAttic wrote: »

I'm not bemoaning them at all. That's an insinuation.

I clearly misinterpreted, I didn't insinuate:

"I call bullsh1t on that for the reason that there are a lot of fellas in A4 being coached / training on power and this is resulting in some well trained and powerful riders."

What's stopping you doing the same then? If you want to get out of A4 you can't blame the quality of the A4 riders around you being too good. I'd also avoid thinking that "club league will make me stronger". All racing will make you stronger and racing with people just above your level will definitely bring you on.

dahat

InTheAttic wrote: »

This is my first season racing ever and I'm in A4. The more I watch the results in A4, the more sceptical I am of A4 'settling down'. I call bullsh1t on that for the reason that there are a lot of fellas in A4 being coached / training on power and this is resulting in some well trained and powerful riders. The entire A4 group is just going to get stronger with the open races and as the club leagues will be starting shortly. Not sure anyone will agree, but I think the corollary is that it will be harder and harder to get out of it. I know I'm a strong rider myself with very good power. I haven't got my 'racing legs' just yet, but I will have them shortly enough. So will a lot of the other lads in A4. I wonder what the solution is - A new A5 category (will probably never happen)? More points needed to get out of A4? I don't know the answer.

I have only done the 2 races, Ras Luimni and Carrick but I saw nothing to fear in either race tbh. Race position is key from what I have seen and the ability to get power down quick for 30-45 seconds for the surges.
Strong lads will be upgraded quickly and alot will have points from last season so even the placed lads are getting out of A4, this will even it up a bit I think for us. More opportunities to get points on the board.

Miklos

InTheAttic wrote: »

This is my first season racing ever and I'm in A4. The more I watch the results in A4, the more sceptical I am of A4 'settling down'. I call bullsh1t on that for the reason that there are a lot of fellas in A4 being coached / training on power and this is resulting in some well trained and powerful riders. The entire A4 group is just going to get stronger with the open races and as the club leagues will be starting shortly. Not sure anyone will agree, but I think the corollary is that it will be harder and harder to get out of it.

The more I see the results the more I see stronger riders being upgraded or on their way to being upgraded sharpish. A few of my stronger clubmates have been upgraded since the season started. Seems to me the system works.

dahat

Miklos wrote: »

The more I see the results the more I see stronger riders being upgraded or on their way to being upgraded sharpish. A few of my stronger clubmates have been upgraded since the season started. Seems to me the system works.

Agreed, one of the stronger lads in our club was upgraded without winning a race.

InTheAttic

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I clearly misinterpreted, I didn't insinuate:

"I call bullsh1t on that for the reason that there are a lot of fellas in A4 being coached / training on power and this is resulting in some well trained and powerful riders."

What's stopping you doing the same then?

I am.

Whether I get out of A4 or not, does not bother me at all.

Perhaps I misinterpreted what this "settle down" (based on dahat's post before) actually means. My interpretation of it, was that a category "settling down", means it gets easier?!

dahat

InTheAttic wrote: »

I am.

Whether I get out of A4 or not, does not bother me at all.

Perhaps I misinterpreted what this "settle down" (based on dahat's post before) actually means. My interpretation of it, was that a category "settling down", means it gets easier?!

When the one day lunatics are gone and massive fields of 137 like in Caherconlish aren't to be faced.

Homer1798

Racing settling down, don't mean getting easier, it means that lads are less nervous/anxious and therefore the races tend to be (a bit) safer and the bunch easier to move around in. Riders get fitter as the season progresses. If a rider can't get out of A4 then racing against the best juniors in A3 is gona kill them. The best in A4 will move on as soon as the get the points, the best in A3 (usually juniors) are there for the year.

dahat

Am I correct in thinking it takes most lads two seasons to get out of A4 with the odd exception of course?

I'm in no hurry whatsoever to leave A4 as I'm nowhere near A3 class now or ever likely to be.

Sarz91

dahat wrote: »

Am I correct in thinking it takes most lads two seasons to get out of A4 with the odd exception of course?

I'm in no hurry whatsoever to leave A4 as I'm nowhere near A3 class now or ever likely to be.

A3 class? Wouldn't put yourself down. A lot of lads took advantage of the free upgrade going around a few years back in order to get out of A4.

I'd say two seasons sounds about right with outliers on either side of that. I wouldn't worry too much about "scoring points" or "upgrading". There seems to be a lot of emphasis on the points and upgrades rather than the fun of it.

dahat

Sarz91 wrote: »

A3 class? Wouldn't put yourself down. A lot of lads took advantage of the free upgrade going around a few years back in order to get out of A4.

I'd say two seasons sounds about right with outliers on either side of that. I wouldn't worry too much about "scoring points" or "upgrading". There seems to be a lot of emphasis on the points and upgrades rather than the fun of it.

I'd like to get a pt or two on the board this year as a marker or reward even for a lot of work this winter on my part.

I have really enjoyed the two races and have learned from alot from both about myself as a cyclist. Hopefully I can use this over the next few to maximize my chances of a prominent finish somewhere.
I do hope to try get away with one or two lads somewhere and hopefully hang on as that to.me would be a glorious way to get placed!

Sarz91

dahat wrote: »

I'd like to get a pt or two on the board this year as a marker or reward even for a lot of work this winter on my part.

I have really enjoyed the two races and have learned from alot from both about myself as a cyclist. Hopefully I can use this over the next few to maximize my chances of a prominent finish somewhere.
I do hope to try get away with one or two lads somewhere and hopefully hang on as that to.me would be a glorious way to get placed!

You doing kilmessan?

Bambaata

If you're looking to get upgraded then hit the stage races, loads of points on offer at them!

JK.BMC

InTheAttic wrote: »

Yeh, that right? I bet I could outsprint you

Ah here - chillax man. Don't take it personally but in my experience a lot of bike races involve sprinting, either out of corners, onto the right wheels or in the finale itself. Ever notice that yourself?
It's a fundamental skill/fitness indicator that can be trained. Or to put it another way, if you neglect it totally you haven't a hope of succeeding in road racing unless you have bucket loads of natural quick-twitch talent and bike handling to match

So as a follow up to what I said earlier, how about working on sprinting. I think that is a thoroughgly reasonable bit of advice.
Plus I don't give a monkeys if you beat me or not at the moment.

dahat

Sarz91 wrote: »

You doing kilmessan?

No staying local again, Dungarvan as.it isn't finishing up Coligan hill this year so if I can survive that twice I'm hopeful of being involved if things go my way.

InTheAttic

JK.BMC wrote: »

Or to put it another way, if you neglect it totally you haven't a hope of succeeding in road racing unless you have bucket loads of natural quick-twitch talent and bike handling to match.

I disagree. There are guys who cannot sprint, and have placed in races. A few weeks back I was out on a spin with a small, slight A2 fella who said he cannot sprint but has placed in races by being cute and attacking when he knows people are tired.

Sarz91

InTheAttic wrote: »

I disagree. There are guys who cannot sprint, and have placed in races. A few weeks back I was out on a spin with a small, slight A2 fella who said he cannot sprint but has placed in races by being cute and attacking when he knows people are tired.

There's a difference between "I'm A2 I can't sprint" and "I'm A4 I can't sprint".

CramCycle

InTheAttic wrote: »

A new A5 category (will probably never happen)? More points needed to get out of A4? I don't know the answer.

What would the point be, s others have said, your either better than A4 (you get upgraded) or A4 is better than you (you get better over time).

dahat wrote: »

Am I correct in thinking it takes most lads two seasons to get out of A4 with the odd exception of course?

Some of us take longer, like a fine wine.

InTheAttic

Sarz91 wrote: »

There's a difference between "I'm A2 I can't sprint" and "I'm A4 I can't sprint".

You don't have to be a sprinter to win races.

Sarz91

InTheAttic wrote: »

You don't have to be a sprinter to win races.

No but it certainly makes things easier in a country where ~80% of the races are more or less pan flat.

wirelessdude01

InTheAttic wrote:

You don't have to be a sprinter to win races.

Trust me it certainly helps to get out of A4. The higher cat races are generally sorted long before the end as a break is up the road. Even in those if you want to win you have to be able to have some form of sprint.

JK.BMC

InTheAttic wrote: »

I disagree. There are guys who cannot sprint, and have placed in races. A few weeks back I was out on a spin with a small, slight A2 fella who said he cannot sprint but has placed in races by being cute and attacking when he knows people are tired.

What are you disagreeing with? Your friend in A2 must obviously have sprinting ability if he knows how to attack. One is needed for the other to occur usually.
Anyway, you are free to keep disagreeing with a fairly fundamentally obvious aspect of road racing, which is 6-10 sec maximal power , as well as the 30-secs intense efforts needed at the sharp end of a race.

Kaisr Sose

JK.BMC wrote: »

What are you disagreeing with? Your friend in A2 must obviously have sprinting ability if he knows how to attack. One is needed for the other to occur usually.
Anyway, you are free to keep disagreeing with a fairly fundamentally obvious aspect of road racing, which is 6-10 sec maximal power , as well as the 30-secs intense efforts needed at the sharp end of a race.

Agreed. To be successful in any category, get the gap and then maintain it, you need explosive power. At any finish from a group, odds are the one with the fastest gallop will be successful in most straight sprints for a line. That rider may not have been the stongest in the groom but first over the line is all that matters.

Bambaata

I've never been involved in a sprint and have gotten to A2 with some points on the board so far so am curious about the kind of power needed to be capable of sprinting? I know there's more to it than this but what Ind of w/kg would be needed and roughly for how long?

I really don't consider myself a sprinter so try to get away beforehand

Daroxtar

Maybe. Do you ride a TCR?