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FTP and cycle racing.

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    #332
    Derrydingle
    Registered Users Posts: 366 ✭✭Derrydingle


    Sarz91 wrote:
    A3 class? Wouldn't put yourself down. A lot of lads took advantage of the free upgrade going around a few years back in order to get out of A4.


    Can vets still upgrade themselves to a3 apart from doing longer races what's the idea behind it if your having trouble getting points in the a4 races


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    #333
    DKmac
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭DKmac


    Sarz91 wrote: »
    I wouldn't worry too much about "scoring points" or "upgrading". There seems to be a lot of emphasis on the points and upgrades rather than the fun of it.

    If you aren't at minimum A3 you find yourself excluded from a number of races most notably a number of 2-3 day events.


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    #334
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,079 ✭✭✭buffalo


    JK.BMC wrote: »
    What are you disagreeing with? Your friend in A2 must obviously have sprinting ability if he knows how to attack. One is needed for the other to occur usually.

    To attack well you don't really need to be able to sprint well, just to launch a sprint at the right time - when nobody is watching/expecting, or can/will respond.

    Which is not to say that a sprinting ability doesn't help, but you can do well without it.


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    #335
    JK.BMC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭JK.BMC


    buffalo wrote: »
    To attack well you don't really need to be able to sprint well, just to launch a sprint at the right time - when nobody is watching/expecting, or can/will respond.

    Which is not to say that a sprinting ability doesn't help, but you can do well without it.

    Yes- tactical awareness etc helps. Not everybody thrives on sprint finishes and the like.
    But the point I keep coming back to is that practicing/training sprint-like efforts will almost certainly help with performance in A4 races- if not all racing really


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    #336
    crazy_kenny
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭crazy_kenny


    Just looking over my power data from the first 3 A4 races of the season.

    Race 1: Lacey Cup 71km
    Average power = 197 Watts, 3.13w/kg
    Average heart rate = 156

    Race 2: Des Hanlon 76km
    Average power = 183 Watts, 2.9w/kg
    Average heart rate = 157

    Race 3: Dungarvan Gp 72km
    Average power = 161Watts, 2.56w/kg
    Average heart rate = 149

    In the Lacey cup and Des Hanlon I was dropped on the climbs and fought on to rejoin with others. Yesterday in the Dungarvan race I pretty much stayed with the bunch all the way around. Would I be correct in concluding that I didn't put in enough effort yesterday? And how do others measure this in a race situation? Do you use data from power meters or by feel?


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    #337
    dahat
    Registered Users Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    You must have been close to me then if you were in the main bunch in Dungarvan?

    What power meter are you using?


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    #338
    crazy_kenny
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭crazy_kenny


    dahat wrote: »
    You must have been close to me then if you were in the main bunch in Dungarvan?

    What power meter are you using?

    4 iii left side only. Crash happened just in front of me. Managed to squeeze through gap. By this stage main group was gone. Put the hammer down and passed 5 or 6 before finishing.


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    #339
    Seadin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭Seadin


    crazy_kenny wrote: »
    Just looking over my power data from the first 3 A4 races of the season.

    Race 1: Lacey Cup 71km
    Average power = 197 Watts, 3.13w/kg
    Average heart rate = 156

    Race 2: Des Hanlon 76km
    Average power = 183 Watts, 2.9w/kg
    Average heart rate = 157

    Race 3: Dungarvan Gp 72km
    Average power = 161Watts, 2.56w/kg
    Average heart rate = 149

    In the Lacey cup and Des Hanlon I was dropped on the climbs and fought on to rejoin with others. Yesterday in the Dungarvan race I pretty much stayed with the bunch all the way around. Would I be correct in concluding that I didn't put in enough effort yesterday? And how do others measure this in a race situation? Do you use data from power meters or by feel?

    I had 210w average power in the a3 race. I was in the bunch sprint at the end. AVG heart rate was 165bpm with max of 192bpm. My heart rate is always around the 165-170bpm when racing. Don't know if this is a good or bad thing.


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    #340
    dahat
    Registered Users Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    crazy_kenny wrote: »
    4 iii left side only. Crash happened just in front of me. Managed to squeeze through gap. By this stage main group was gone. Put the hammer down and passed 5 or 6 before finishing.

    Crash happened just behind me, we got away from there, looks like I came in about 15th looking at pictures.

    I'm left side only power also which was put to the sword here last week.
    Avg power 250 watts with avg hr 150.


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    #341
    crazy_kenny
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭crazy_kenny


    Seadin wrote: »
    I had 210w average power in the a3 race. I was in the bunch sprint at the end. AVG heart rate was 165bpm with max of 192bpm. My heart rate is always around the 165-170bpm when racing. Don't know if this is a good or bad thing.

    What was your watts per kg?


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    #342
    Sarz91
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Sarz91


    crazy_kenny wrote: »
    In the Lacey cup and Des Hanlon I was dropped on the climbs and fought on to rejoin with others. Yesterday in the Dungarvan race I pretty much stayed with the bunch all the way around. Would I be correct in concluding that I didn't put in enough effort yesterday? And how do others measure this in a race situation? Do you use data from power meters or by feel?


    It depends. If I'm in the bunch I won't bother looking at the power data as you either keep up or you don't. If I'm off the front I'll look at the data.

    Theres been a lot of talk of breaks especially on this thread so I thought I'd share my experience from yesterday. I was in the break up until the finish of yesterdays A4 race in Killmessan. For the last hour of racing I averaged 274 watts and I'm in or around 68kg.


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    #343
    harringtonp
    Registered Users Posts: 2,568 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    Ride by feel and analyze after. If there is one metric to pay some attention to when racing its current heart rate. Most guys know the hr at which they blow and monitoring this will tell you how close you are to it , though you probably instinctively know anyway


    Power great for training and later analysis but limited use during a race IMO.
    crazy_kenny wrote: »
    Just looking over my power data from the first 3 A4 races of the season.

    Race 1: Lacey Cup 71km
    Average power = 197 Watts, 3.13w/kg
    Average heart rate = 156

    Race 2: Des Hanlon 76km
    Average power = 183 Watts, 2.9w/kg
    Average heart rate = 157

    Race 3: Dungarvan Gp 72km
    Average power = 161Watts, 2.56w/kg
    Average heart rate = 149

    In the Lacey cup and Des Hanlon I was dropped on the climbs and fought on to rejoin with others. Yesterday in the Dungarvan race I pretty much stayed with the bunch all the way around. Would I be correct in concluding that I didn't put in enough effort yesterday? And how do others measure this in a race situation? Do you use data from power meters or by feel?


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    #344
    Seadin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭Seadin


    crazy_kenny wrote: »
    What was your watts per kg?

    I don't know. I weigh 76kg and have ftp of 332w


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    #345
    dahat
    Registered Users Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    harringtonp wrote: »
    Ride by feel and analyze after. If there is one metric to pay some attention to when racing its current heart rate. Most guys know the hr at which they blow and monitoring this will tell you how close you are to it , though you probably instinctively know anyway


    Power great for training and later analysis but limited use during a race IMO.

    When I blew in Dungarvan I hit a new max of 180 at the time so I know mine now!!!


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    #346
    Raymzor
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭Raymzor


    harringtonp wrote: »
    Ride by feel and analyze after. If there is one metric to pay some attention to when racing its current heart rate. Most guys know the hr at which they blow and monitoring this will tell you how close you are to it , though you probably instinctively know anyway


    Power great for training and later analysis but limited use during a race IMO.

    I use PM to train only and review after a race. I thought Normalised Power or Weighted Average Power would give a better insight to a race than average power unless your average power is set up to remove periods of zero cadence. This also explains why the earlier guy had different average power for the two races with the same avg HR.


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    #347
    ballyharpat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,806 ✭✭✭ballyharpat


    Seadin wrote: »
    I don't know. I weigh 76kg and have ftp of 332w

    Your average watts per kg so were 210 divided by 76 so-2.76 w/kg


    I was in the A3 race and went off the front 80km in, then sprinted to take the win at the finish, my average HR was 153bpm max at the sprint was 196bm my threshold is 172.


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    #348
    Seadin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭Seadin


    ballyharpat wrote: »
    Your average watts per kg so were 210 divided by 76 so-2.76 w/kg


    I was in the A3 race and went off the front 80km in, then sprinted to take the win at the finish, my average HR was 153bpm max at the sprint was 196bm my threshold is 172.

    Great move by you and the winning move. Saw you going on the climb just didn't have the legs at that moment to try and get on your wheel. Finished about 15th was in that bunch sprint. Positioning is everything.


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    #349
    ballyharpat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,806 ✭✭✭ballyharpat


    Seadin wrote: »
    Great move by you and the winning move. Saw you going on the climb just didn't have the legs at that moment to try and get on your wheel. Finished about 15th was in that bunch sprint. Positioning is everything.

    Thanks Sean, I was giving it a small bit of effort going up the climb, then looked around and saw that everyone was suffering so I said I'd give it a lash or die trying-Iron maidens 'die with your boots on' entered my head and we went off, we wouldn't have last except my team mate and the Limerick rider joined us with some extra horsepower.
    I was delighted to get the upgrade with a win though.


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    #350
    harringtonp
    Registered Users Posts: 2,568 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    dahat wrote: »
    When I blew in Dungarvan I hit a new max of 180 at the time so I know mine now!!!

    When you are fresh and not fatigued your max HR is comparatively constant and reliable. Later in a hard race or if you are fatigued starting you'll never get anywhere near it no matter how hard you are trying.


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    #351
    dahat
    Registered Users Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    harringtonp wrote: »
    When you are fresh and not fatigued your max HR is comparatively constant and reliable. Later in a hard race or if you are fatigued starting you'll never get anywhere near it no matter how hard you are trying.

    My max HR has been at 179 for 18 months so 180 i hit shows i was fresh starting and able to hit a new max or am i reading this wrong?

    I would have said on the day and 2 days leading in my prep was poor due to family commitments and the game Friday (late home, less than 6 hrs sleep). Even early doors after the first climb up Colligan i knew i wasn't on a going day but i still went to see could i get home.


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    #352
    Seadin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭Seadin


    ballyharpat wrote: »
    Thanks Sean, I was giving it a small bit of effort going up the climb, then looked around and saw that everyone was suffering so I said I'd give it a lash or die trying-Iron maidens 'die with your boots on' entered my head and we went off, we wouldn't have last except my team mate and the Limerick rider joined us with some extra horsepower.
    I was delighted to get the upgrade with a win though.

    Fully deserved dude. Fair play to you.


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    #353
    JK.BMC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭JK.BMC


    InTheAttic wrote: »
    You don't have to be a sprinter to win races.

    Anyway, to make the point once again, here is some interesting reading; and maybe consider what a guy like Mark Cavendish could teach you, and he's a better climber than most Irish domestic cyclists by the way...
    Never mind all this 'FTP' blather

    http://www.stickybottle.com/coaching/video-how-to-become-a-better-sprinter-crucial-for-irish-races/


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    #354
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,933 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    That means sprinting for very minor placings, or even simply for bragging rights, at the end of races.
    No Mark, just no. If your not sprinting for placings in irish road cycling, then you should not be sprinting.


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    #355
    scott.s
    Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭scott.s


    CramCycle wrote: »
    No Mark, just no. If your not sprinting for placings in irish road cycling, then you should not be sprinting.

    It's not Cav that makes that comment, it's the StickyBottle author


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    #356
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,933 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Its announced at the beginning of every race and i have seen some comms pulling people on it over the years.


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    #357
    DKmac
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭DKmac


    CramCycle wrote: »
    No Mark, just no. If your not sprinting for placings in irish road cycling, then you should not be sprinting.

    This should also include sprinting for a Prime that has already been taken by someone 800m up the road.


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    #358
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,079 ✭✭✭buffalo


    CramCycle wrote: »
    No Mark, just no. If your not sprinting for placings in irish road cycling, then you should not be sprinting.

    In fairness, he doesn't say "you should sprint as hard as you can while two-thirds of the way through the bunch when the ten rows in front of you have sat up", but advises to give it a go with a clear road ahead. Probably should have included the caveat though.


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    #359
    JK.BMC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭JK.BMC


    Sprinting up the arses of lads in 50th place at the end of a domestic open race when there is a big bunch finish is indeed to be avoided. But that is not what is meant in the article or what I am suggesting either, as some have noted.

    I was spectating at the Des Hanlon and as per every year, the race disintegrates into numerous groups in each category.
    What is admirable and is to be encouraged is that riders should indeed practice their sprint in these cases- if they want- as the opportunity to actually practice is quite rare. Why not give it a go? At the end of 80, 100, 120km of racing, why not contest the groupetto sprint in a one day race and the get feel of it? It's good advice I think.

    Although, I must add, a 3 man group about 10 minutes down on the winner in A4 still managed to nearly take each other down in Carlow- one guy swerved violently 50m from the end and ended up elbowing another chap sideways; in that case, a word from a team mate, club captain or commissaire would be in order. Or on a proper club spin, a kind words in the ear would help. Helped me in the past.
    Ya just can't legislate for everything!


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    #360
    dahat
    Registered Users Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    Anyone got experience of the Silver Pail GP in Fermoy this weekend?

    This will be my next port of call in my quest to get some points on the board.


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    #361
    Seadin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭Seadin


    dahat wrote: »
    Anyone got experience of the Silver Pail GP in Fermoy this weekend?

    This will be my next port of call in my quest to get some points on the board.

    Nice flat race but finish is lethal especially in A4. If your not in the sprint sit up I would advise from my past experience.


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