FTP and cycle racing.

dahat · 10-07-2017 11:19am

sullzz wrote: »

Yeah i was glad to see he got the win , he did some work during the race , so deserved to come away with something .

I'm glad too as I now have one strong lad less to worry about next week!!!!
He is always honest in his races and flew through A4, he should make a good first of A3 next year once he curbs his desire to work his arse off at the front.

sullzz · 10-07-2017 11:24am

dahat wrote: »

Standard A4 problems and really disappointed with A4 in that sense iny first year of racing. Very little 'racing" as such and easy to get through A4 with very little racing knowledge built up.

These lads sitting in for the entire race waiting for the sprint will get their points and upgrade , but will die off in A3 . I refuse to just sit in , ill happily stay in A4 and work my socks off , ill keep trying to get a break going , i wont be putting myself in danger like yesterday .
I know one lad who got his upgrade in loughrea yesterday , ive been in a lot of races with him and he never once did a turn at the front in any races ive been in with him . But sure look , he gets points and an upgrade so hes a great racer isnt he ?

RobFowl · 10-07-2017 11:31am

sullzz wrote: »

These lads sitting in for the entire race waiting for the sprint will get their points and upgrade , but will die off in A3 . I refuse to just sit in , ill happily stay in A4 and work my socks off , ill keep trying to get a break going , i wont be putting myself in danger like yesterday .
I know one lad who got his upgrade in loughrea yesterday , ive been in a lot of races with him and he never once did a turn at the front in any races ive been in with him . But sure look , he gets points and an upgrade so hes a great racer isnt he ?

Why should anyone "do a turn" at the front in a Race?
Chasing down attacks etc and trying to bring back breaks yes but "doing a turn"?

sullzz · 10-07-2017 11:34am

RobFowl wrote: »

Why should anyone "do a turn" at the front in a Race?
Chasing down attacks etc and trying to bring back breaks yes but "doing a turn"?

Really ??

Sarz91 · 10-07-2017 11:36am

sullzz wrote: »

These lads sitting in for the entire race waiting for the sprint will get their points and upgrade , but will die off in A3 . I refuse to just sit in , ill happily stay in A4 and work my socks off , ill keep trying to get a break going , i wont be putting myself in danger like yesterday .
I know one lad who got his upgrade in loughrea yesterday , ive been in a lot of races with him and he never once did a turn at the front in any races ive been in with him . But sure look , he gets points and an upgrade so hes a great racer isnt he ?

As you well know it's very rarely ever the strongest rider that wins. Was racing earlier in the year against Shane Smith. Some amount of power. Myself and himself did the brunt of the work with trying to make a break etc. Between the two of us he easily did the majority of the work. Easily about 65-35. Coming to the last climb I put the hammer down and put a sizeable gap between myself and himself. Came away with second while he got nothing. Didn't feel fair and I felt bad about it but that's racing unfortunately. He's A1 at the moment and I haven't raced since the upgrade to A3.

There's plenty of lads on here who go to the same races and seem to ride the same way ie off the front. Why not get something going together. There's at least 3-4 of you on here. You'll avoid the crashes and stand a decent chance of staying away.

Sarz91 · 10-07-2017 11:43am

RobFowl wrote: »

Why should anyone "do a turn" at the front in a Race?
Chasing down attacks etc and trying to bring back breaks yes but "doing a turn"?

I'd agree with this. I've never understood the call to "do a turn". Granted I don't have any team mates so maybe it'd be different if I did but the only time I'm at the front is when I'm chasing down a break I'd deem dangerous, going off the front to try get in a break or when the road goes up and I'm trying to shell as much dead weight as possible.

equivariant · 10-07-2017 11:47am

RobFowl wrote: »

Why should anyone "do a turn" at the front in a Race?
Chasing down attacks etc and trying to bring back breaks yes but "doing a turn"?

I guess the reasoning is that if people sit in and refuse to work then the pace is typically slow and it makes it more likely to end in a dangerous bunch sprint.
In A4 there is little in the way of team tactics, so on a flat course if the majority of riders sit in then essentially the race becomes pointless until the last 5k.
In order to thin out the A4 bunch, you need either hills or a fast pace, the latter requires people "doing a turn".

I think, as suggested earlier in this thread, that having the finish line at the top of the short drag might have helped in Loughrea - there was 400 or 500 metres after the drag for riders (who were tired and on the limit) to pick up speed.

CramCycle · 10-07-2017 12:00pm

Sarz91 wrote: »

As you well know it's very rarely ever the strongest rider that wins.

That's what I tell the family when I come home drenched in disappointment :pac:

thekooman · 10-07-2017 12:09pm

sullzz wrote: »

These lads sitting in for the entire race waiting for the sprint will get their points and upgrade , but will die off in A3 . I refuse to just sit in , ill happily stay in A4 and work my socks off , ill keep trying to get a break going , i wont be putting myself in danger like yesterday .
I know one lad who got his upgrade in loughrea yesterday , ive been in a lot of races with him and he never once did a turn at the front in any races ive been in with him . But sure look , he gets points and an upgrade so hes a great racer isnt he ?

i think i know who you are on about here. All he trains for is a sprint.... and he has a great sprint. and now he is in A3

equivariant · 10-07-2017 3:49pm

Sarz91 wrote: »

I'd agree with this. I've never understood the call to "do a turn". Granted I don't have any team mates so maybe it'd be different if I did but the only time I'm at the front is when I'm chasing down a break I'd deem dangerous, going off the front to try get in a break or when the road goes up and I'm trying to shell as much dead weight as possible.

I think that the problem is with people that want to ride near the front but never at the front. You get a whole bunch of people who want to sit at 7th or 8th wheel but never pull through. You might say 'that's your problem, I'm entitled to do what I want' and so you are. But if everyone (or even a majority) adopts that attitude then you end up with a race like yesterday in Loughrea with a dangerous lottery for a sprint finish.

CramCycle · 10-07-2017 4:44pm

Sarz91 wrote: »

There's plenty of lads on here who go to the same races and seem to ride the same way ie off the front. Why not get something going together. There's at least 3-4 of you on here. You'll avoid the crashes and stand a decent chance of staying away.

Because I would sell them all down the river, #nofriendsinA4

sullzz wrote: »

Really ??

I think people have different opinions on "doing a turn". To me it is what you do in a club ride. Riding at the front in a race is because you want the pace kept up, you want to drag the group over, or you want to shell people out the back. Im my case, it is normally because I have no tactical skill and end up there till I fall out the side.

equivariant wrote: »

I think that the problem is with people that want to ride near the front but never at the front. You get a whole bunch of people who want to sit at 7th or 8th wheel but never pull through. You might say 'that's your problem, I'm entitled to do what I want' and so you are. But if everyone (or even a majority) adopts that attitude then you end up with a race like yesterday in Loughrea with a dangerous lottery for a sprint finish.

They are, the issue is that normally at the beginning of the year, you have lads who are willing to bust a hump to tear off. It is in groups like these that lads should take their chances early and tear on to a TT victory but the memories of beingf reeled back in early on are still lingering.

Another option would be for the comms, just like in a club race, set a minimum pace. If the group were far slower than they should be , the comms would signal that if speed does not pick up within the lap, they will neutralise and call off the race. Or maybe add in KOMs or sprints (with points if possible) to inspire a bit of pace.

equivariant · 10-07-2017 5:03pm

CramCycle wrote: »

.. but the memories of beingf reeled back in early on are still lingering.

This is what happens when guys refuse to take a turn but then insist on closing every move down straight away. Sunday was like that - 50kph for 1 minute while the attack is shut down and then back to 37/38 for 5 minutes until someone else tries. If 3 or 4 of those guys who will shut down every move would pull together then the races might break up a bit more and it gets more interesting and possibly safer for everyone.

sullzz · 10-07-2017 5:07pm

RobFowl wrote: »

Why should anyone "do a turn" at the front in a Race?
Chasing down attacks etc and trying to bring back breaks yes but "doing a turn"?

so who in your opinion should be at the front of the peloton ? to me that's the negative attitude that contributes to the style of A4 racing we are dealing with , riders constantly moving up on the right and pulling in 6 riders back from the front , happy to sit in and get pulled along to the sprint

sullzz · 10-07-2017 5:14pm

equivariant wrote: »

This is what happens when guys refuse to take a turn but then insist on closing every move down straight away. Sunday was like that - 50kph for 1 minute while the attack is shut down and then back to 37/38 for 5 minutes until someone else tries. If 3 or 4 of those guys who will shut down every move would pull together then the races might break up a bit more and it gets more interesting and possibly safer for everyone.

this is it , there are plenty of lads strong enough to get a break going but are too afraid to because if they get caught they have burned all their matches and it will be race over , so instead you have a load of lads with energy left set to open up a bunch sprint .

Lumen · 10-07-2017 5:15pm

sullzz wrote: »

so who in your opinion should be at the front of the peloton ?

Someone else :pac:

longshank · 10-07-2017 5:21pm

sullzz wrote: »

this is it , there are plenty of lads strong enough to get a break going but are too afraid to because if they get caught they have burned all their matches and it will be race over , so instead you have a load of lads with energy left set to open up a bunch sprint .

I think the problem is the guys trying to get in a break dont realise how hard you have to ride (or arent strong enough) to establish a break.

Sarz91 · 10-07-2017 5:56pm

equivariant wrote: »

I think that the problem is with people that want to ride near the front but never at the front. You get a whole bunch of people who want to sit at 7th or 8th wheel but never pull through. You might say 'that's your problem, I'm entitled to do what I want' and so you are. But if everyone (or even a majority) adopts that attitude then you end up with a race like yesterday in Loughrea with a dangerous lottery for a sprint finish.

So make them work for it. Put the hammer down and attack make them chase you. If there as keen to sit in as you seem to be implying I can guarantee they'll all look at each other and won't get organised in time. If it doesn't go your way then so be it but at least you gave it a shot. The likelihood of our winning from a group is low unless you have a decent sprint so why not lash out from a decent distance?

You'll learn a lot more failing in a break than waiting for your luck to come good in a sprint in A4.

dahat · 10-07-2017 8:32pm

Tipp Wheelers GP on Sunday 16th is 75km on a decent course, not lumpy but a few digs that will shed a few with that distance involved.

Looking forward to it as it takes me some time to find my legs in a race as the season has gone on.

DKmac · 11-07-2017 1:58pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Another option would be for the comms, just like in a club race, set a minimum pace. If the group were far slower than they should be , the comms would signal that if speed does not pick up within the lap, they will neutralise and call off the race. Or maybe add in KOMs or sprints (with points if possible) to inspire a bit of pace.

Minimum pace. We have reached peak bullsh!t here.

Here's a suggestion, what if people stop b!tching and moaning about what other lads are or aren't doing and in particular keep their notions to themselves during races. There is far too much whinging and complaining involved with A4. Every week its non-stop, lads losing the plot if they get the slightest bump or get cut off a wheel because they've let a gap open by being lazy or a lack of concentration, get over yourselves lads. Perhaps if the same people saved their breathe for the race instead of whinging they might actually do something significant.

If you don't have the stomach for a sprint because of the risk of going down don't complain about the lads winning sprints because they have the balls to put their neck on the line.

CramCycle · 11-07-2017 2:42pm

If you don't have the stomach for a sprint because of the risk of going down don't complain about the lads winning sprints because they have the balls to put their neck on the line.

When did I complain about this? I have no issue with it at all, it is racing. I am not particularly good at it, maybe one day I will be average at it. I still love it. When the group is riding to slow for me, I go to the front and hammer it like hell for a bit, if I break free so be it (it rarely lasts), if I pull the group on a bit, I will drop back after awhile and hope the pace stays up.

I have taken part in plenty of sprints, this has nothing to do with balls on the line, I was trying to think of ways to break the group up as while some of us can handle ourselves in a group, some can't. I have no problem with being taken down in a sprint as that is a risk you take when you go racing, I have a problem with being taken down by a twit who can't handle a bike properly in said sprint.

The only complaint I have is that when a rider is known to be dangerous or stupid, nothing seems to be done about it after the race. In my club league when a rider is know to be dangerous they have a carding system, quiet words on the side and notes on how to change. If riders are seen to not give a f*ck after words are had, they are put out.

Harder to do in open racing but I still can't see why comms just can't tag comments about riders onto their profiles and if CI see a pattern developing for certain riders, have the comms or someone in CI drop them a line to say it was noted and maybe it is something they can have a look at. If it continues, drop a line to their club sec and after that, a year to the day ban from open racing.

It doesn't need to be publicised.

Chips Lovell · 11-07-2017 2:58pm

equivariant wrote: »

I guess the reasoning is that if people sit in and refuse to work then the pace is typically slow and it makes it more likely to end in a dangerous bunch sprint.
In A4 there is little in the way of team tactics, so on a flat course if the majority of riders sit in then essentially the race becomes pointless until the last 5k.
In order to thin out the A4 bunch, you need either hills or a fast pace, the latter requires people "doing a turn".

The average speed for that race, according to Strava, was around 38.5kph. It was hardly people tootling around waiting for a gallop.

I've seen plenty of A4 races and the problem isn't that there's not enough people willing to ride on the front to speed it up. Anyone with a reasonable degree of bunch riding skills could sit in a bunch doing 50kph and still contest the sprint.

Instead there's too many people drilling it on the front without really thinking about why they're doing it. That and people doing the wrong kind of training and not really understanding how to get and keep a break going.

DKmac · 11-07-2017 3:28pm

CramCycle wrote: »

When did I complain about this? I have no issue with it at all, it is racing. I am not particularly good at it, maybe one day I will be average at it. I still love it. When the group is riding to slow for me, I go to the front and hammer it like hell for a bit, if I break free so be it (it rarely lasts), if I pull the group on a bit, I will drop back after awhile and hope the pace stays up.

I have taken part in plenty of sprints, this has nothing to do with balls on the line, I was trying to think of ways to break the group up as while some of us can handle ourselves in a group, some can't. I have no problem with being taken down in a sprint as that is a risk you take when you go racing, I have a problem with being taken down by a twit who can't handle a bike properly in said sprint.

The only complaint I have is that when a rider is known to be dangerous or stupid, nothing seems to be done about it after the race. In my club league when a rider is know to be dangerous they have a carding system, quiet words on the side and notes on how to change. If riders are seen to not give a f*ck after words are had, they are put out.

Harder to do in open racing but I still can't see why comms just can't tag comments about riders onto their profiles and if CI see a pattern developing for certain riders, have the comms or someone in CI drop them a line to say it was noted and maybe it is something they can have a look at. If it continues, drop a line to their club sec and after that, a year to the day ban from open racing.

It doesn't need to be publicised.

The second part was a general comment to a lot of the whingefest going on about A4 racing. It's the bottom rung of the ladder, lads will make mistakes, lads will do stupid things, pretty sure lads aren't going out there to take the entire race down or even themselves. Everybody seems to be quick to label lads at fault and brand them as idiots,twats or whatever else and be fully able to judge their ability to handle a bike based on a split second incident. This is nothing more than finger pointing. The fact of the matter is its bike racing, it happens and at this level its going to happen more often that not as its a beginner classification. Go racing concentrate on your own race and if stuff like this occurs put it down to bad luck and get over it.

CramCycle · 11-07-2017 4:36pm

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Instead there's too many people drilling it on the front without really thinking about why they're doing it. That and people doing the wrong kind of training and not really understanding how to get and keep a break going.

I would be one of those people, I know why I do it, and I know I should not do it but I just cannot help it. If you didn't have idiots like me though, it would be too easy for all the smart racers

sullzz · 11-07-2017 5:24pm

DKmac wrote: »

The second part was a general comment to a lot of the whingefest going on about A4 racing. It's the bottom rung of the ladder, lads will make mistakes, lads will do stupid things, pretty sure lads aren't going out there to take the entire race down or even themselves. Everybody seems to be quick to label lads at fault and brand them as idiots,twats or whatever else and be fully able to judge their ability to handle a bike based on a split second incident. This is nothing more than finger pointing. The fact of the matter is its bike racing, it happens and at this level its going to happen more often that not as its a beginner classification. Go racing concentrate on your own race and if stuff like this occurs put it down to bad luck and get over it.

Ok , i was in that race on sunday and also saw the video afterwards , what happened was not bad luck , it was the actions of a tosser , who did intentionally ride dangerously and as a result bring down the bunch . I know going in for a sprint there is always a risk of crashing but what that guy did was unacceptable, it was not a mistake or a rookie error .
Ive no problem with lads riding aggressively but taking others out intentionally is out of order .

StevieGriff · 11-07-2017 6:46pm

sullzz wrote: »

Ok , i was in that race on sunday and also saw the video afterwards , what happened was not bad luck , it was the actions of a tosser , who did intentionally ride dangerously and as a result bring down the bunch . I know going in for a sprint there is always a risk of crashing but what that guy did was unacceptable, it was not a mistake or a rookie error .
Ive no problem with lads riding aggressively but taking others out intentionally is out of order .

So what did he do? Is the video public?

JK.BMC · 11-07-2017 11:14pm

StevieGriff wrote: »

So what did he do? Is the video public?

I didn't attend this race; I don't ride A4; I did note that the promoting club made a statement on facebook and asked that video of the specific race/incidents etc not be made public; it seems that they want to follow up on what happened and I commend them for doing so.

In fact, my main sympathy is with race promoters and club volunteers who now - routinely almost - have to deal with the evolving clusterfxxx that A4 racing is becoming. The Paddy Flanagan races in Kildare had a similar type incident last month, to mention one other example. There are many many others.

But it isn't anything new. In fact, I think I recall a similar thread on this issue some time back in 2010 maybe - many of the same points made, much of the same hand wringing and head scratching - and since then nothing has changed. Except you now need 15 rather than 10 points to escape the grade. Go figure.

One particular thing I notice here - once again - is this dialogue about "working on the front" of the A4 bunch. Granted that the grade is supposedly for "novices" but in all seriousness, how many races - with the same type of conclusion etc - does it take for regular A4 riders to realize that "riding HARD on da front" is usually a waste of time, almost certainly creating the very conditions that facilitate a bunch sprint/mass pile-up/chaotic ditch-to-ditch/call-the ambulance conclusion in the end? I wouldn't use the phrase "negative racing" - it seems not enough A4s have learned race craft, bunch skills, or the art of attacking and/or sprinting, even after a season or two of racing. And you have to wonder, how long does it take for the penny to drop? Cycling is a ruthless sport, you have to hurt an awful lot just to be average and suffering immensely - at the right time - is key to winning. One plays sport - but one does not "play" cycling , as the saying goes.

I wont go on any more about this as a lot of the same territory pops up in each thread/post. In my experience, plenty of middle aged A4 riders are not great at learning/improving and just go about their business each week and its pot luck who wins. But this thread began with questions about "functional threshold power." Its time to ditch that concept - how about "bike skills/tactics for A4 racing."

Taxuser1 · 11-07-2017 11:45pm

I blame the parents mostly. Not letting them ride their bikes willy nilly as youngsters, wrapping them up in cotton wool. Of course they were going to break out in their 40s and be a menace to society.

DKmac · 12-07-2017 9:25am

JK.BMC wrote: »

I didn't attend this race; I don't ride A4; I did note that the promoting club made a statement on facebook and asked that video of the specific race/incidents etc not be made public; it seems that they want to follow up on what happened and I commend them for doing so. ..

How does anyone on here know the guy hasn't been pulled up on this since the event by the Commissaries involved with the race? I don't think any race incident warrants a total character assassination even on a random insignificant forum like this. Leave the discipline to the Commissaries, its not anybody else's place to start pointing fingers and character assassination with pathetic name calling, looking back on posts this lad has been childishly called a tw*t and a tosser. It seems every smallest detail in a race these days is blown completely out of proportion and every one seems to feel they have a right to identify and demand punishment. It doesn't work like this and this only serves to perpetuate the notion that A4 racing is dangerous.

JK.BMC wrote: »

In fact, my main sympathy is with race promoters and club volunteers who now - routinely almost - have to deal with the evolving clusterfxxx that A4 racing is becoming. The Paddy Flanagan races in Kildare had a similar type incident last month, to mention one other example. There are many many others..

On many occasions I do have sympathy as like this small incidents are being blown out of proportion and blamed on orgainsers but I do have to say I have no sympathy for the organisers of the Paddy Flanagan, the clusterf*ck was totally on their back for having such a short race with unrestricted numbers.

JK.BMC wrote: »

One particular thing I notice here - once again - is this dialogue about "working on the front" of the A4 bunch. Granted that the grade is supposedly for "novices" but in all seriousness, how many races - with the same type of conclusion etc - does it take for regular A4 riders to realize that "riding HARD on da front" is usually a waste of time, almost certainly creating the very conditions that facilitate a bunch sprint/mass pile-up/chaotic ditch-to-ditch/call-the ambulance conclusion in the end? I wouldn't use the phrase "negative racing" - it seems not enough A4s have learned race craft, bunch skills, or the art of attacking and/or sprinting, even after a season or two of racing. And you have to wonder, how long does it take for the penny to drop? Cycling is a ruthless sport, you have to hurt an awful lot just to be average and suffering immensely - at the right time - is key to winning. One plays sport - but one does not "play" cycling , as the saying goes...

Agree 100%, well put.

CramCycle · 12-07-2017 9:44am

JK.BMC wrote: »

But it isn't anything new. In fact, I think I recall a similar thread on this issue some time back in 2010 maybe - many of the same points made, much of the same hand wringing and head scratching - and since then nothing has changed. Except you now need 15 rather than 10 points to escape the grade. Go figure.

How about something akin to what they do in Club Leagues and on track. Actually having a begineers/novices/training race. And let a suitably qualified person riding with the comms flag riders who are appropriate for moving up or being let out

I wont go on any more about this as a lot of the same territory pops up in each thread/post. In my experience, plenty of middle aged A4 riders are not great at learning/improving and just go about their business each week and its pot luck who wins. But this thread began with questions about "functional threshold power." Its time to ditch that concept - how about "bike skills/tactics for A4 racing."

100% but they won't learn this by turning up randomly for A4 events once a week or month. Surely most of the poorer racers commented about read social media in some shape or form (not all, but most). And yet they miss the point that the people being tackled about are them. I certainly recognise myself in some of the comments. A4 is not a beginners group for all the best will in the world. People are in there for too long for that. Beginners races are what should be happening in club leagues, where people who know better can show and talk to people in their own club. Maybe a person of suitable quality could ride with the comms at races and pick out people for upgrades based on capability or some such. Or how about an actual A4 league, run it between Mondello and Corkagh park, have people who knows their sh1t standing around and highlighting issues as well as highlighting people for forced upgrades as happens in club leagues and track racing. Add in handicaps as you identify strong riders without handling skills (and riders the other way round) week on week.

DKmac wrote: »

How does anyone on here know the guy hasn't been pulled up on this since the event by the Commissaries involved with the race? I don't think any race incident warrants a total character assassination even on a random insignificant forum like this. Leave the discipline to the Commissaries, its not anybody else's place to start pointing fingers and character assassination with pathetic name calling, looking back on posts this lad has been childishly called a tw*t and a tosser. It seems every smallest detail in a race these days is blown completely out of proportion and every one seems to feel they have a right to identify and demand punishment. It doesn't work like this and this only serves to perpetuate the notion that A4 racing is dangerous.

Agree with this too, I wasn't there but having a lynching mob does no one, including the sport, any good. He may deserve to be put out or punished but riders really need to go to the comms with these concerns after the race. We all have numbers on our backs.

DKmac · 12-07-2017 9:58am

CramCycle wrote: »

Agree with this too, I wasn't there but having a lynching mob does no one, including the sport, any good. He may deserve to be put out or punished but riders really need to go to the comms with these concerns after the race. We all have numbers on our backs.

Precisely and that's where the issue should be left.

FTP and cycle racing.

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