FTP and cycle racing.

07Lapierre

RayCun wrote: »

It seems like a very roundabout way of doing things.
If there are smaller numbers in a race, it is much safer, isn't it?
So limit it to 50 (say), pre-reg supported so people won't waste their time travelling to full races. Very limited prizes to make the races more economical to host. Knowing the numbers in advance from pre-registration might make it possible to put on a second A4 race, if demand is there?

Agree.. A few A2/3 races have been cancelled due to crashes in the A4 race taking up all the paramedics.

Much better to put a cap on each race and if more riders turn up...they get to race IF there are sufficient numbers to warranty a second race. It's really quite simple.

07Lapierre

brocbrocach wrote: »

Many racers and their clubs are 3 or 4 hours drive from Mondello/Corkagh.

All the more reason why people should agree to pre-registration?

Weepsie

brocbrocach wrote: »

Many racers and their clubs are 3 or 4 hours drive from Mondello/Corkagh.

If they can drive 3 - 4 hours to get to a normal race, then doing the same for an accreditation day shouldn't be any harder. If a few clubs from an area arranged together travel costs could come down.

But also the poster said it doesn't necessarily have to be in these places, someone from a club, or better 2 from a club would have to sign off on someone's suitability for racing. That's of course open to abuse but worth trying.

Stevieg2009

buffalo wrote: »

For an A4 race!? They're very generous in Munster, must head down there for a race! :pac:

Just thinking the same....

dahat

Stevieg2009 wrote: »

Just thinking the same....

Stay out of Munster please!!!!

brocbrocach

Weepsie wrote: »

If they can drive 3 - 4 hours to get to a normal race, then doing the same for an accreditation day shouldn't be any harder. If a few clubs from an area arranged together travel costs could come down.

But also the poster said it doesn't necessarily have to be in these places, someone from a club, or better 2 from a club would have to sign off on someone's suitability for racing. That's of course open to abuse but worth trying.

But they don't. That's why a provincial set-up is there.
My reading of it was that the club sign-off would be after Corkaggh Mondello or else track.

eeeee

brocbrocach wrote: »

But they don't. That's why a provincial set-up is there.
My reading of it was that the club sign-off would be after Corkaggh Mondello or else track.

Well surely being signed off from a club league world be sufficient? You can't expect people to come from Munster, Connaught and the north to Corkagh or Mondello? That'd be ridiculous!

brocbrocach

nee wrote: »

Well surely being signed off from a club league world be sufficient? You can't expect people to come from Munster, Connaught and the north to Corkagh or Mondello? That'd be ridiculous!

I'm only the messenger!! Ask the man himself!

CramCycle

RayCun wrote: »

It seems like a very roundabout way of doing things.
If there are smaller numbers in a race, it is much safer, isn't it?
So limit it to 50 (say), pre-reg supported so people won't waste their time travelling to full races. Very limited prizes to make the races more economical to host. Knowing the numbers in advance from pre-registration might make it possible to put on a second A4 race, if demand is there?

Makes sense, the only issue here is organisation. The second race is fine from a marshalling point of view but you may not have a course large enough to have that many groups out on it or your safety statement may show that it stretches resources to thinly. You would also have to have comms on standby for it as well. Doable but not quite as simple as just saying it. Basically making A4 pre reg only. Which actually is not a terrible idea, the arguments against pre reg are reasonably valid but if you are only confining the starting cat to it, then its not cutting off on the day sign ons from every cat.

brocbrocach wrote: »

Many racers and their clubs are 3 or 4 hours drive from Mondello/Corkagh.

Doesn't have to be there. Could be a club league in the local area with 3 or 4 of the local clubs signing off on riders as they see fit, or making the clubs submit the sign on sheets. Maybe the new riders have to both get out of limit and place in a higher grouping or take part in 5 league races without incident (ie cross the line and have no complaints from organisers). At the minute it seems to be far harder to get into a club league than into an open race, which is odd as the club leagues are meant to serve as training grounds for the open races.

Weepsie wrote: »

If they can drive 3 - 4 hours to get to a normal race, then doing the same for an accreditation day shouldn't be any harder. If a few clubs from an area arranged together travel costs could come down.

But also the poster said it doesn't necessarily have to be in these places, someone from a club, or better 2 from a club would have to sign off on someone's suitability for racing. That's of course open to abuse but worth trying.

Agreed, it really doesn't have to be in either of these, they just provide possibilities. Club leagues or similar, track accreditation, there are alot of options. It may be logistically impossible, just throwing out suggestions. Club leagues would be the easiest choice, as well as stronger powers (or enforcement) from the comms to risky behaviour.

brocbrocach wrote: »

But they don't. That's why a provincial set-up is there.

A good idea, bring it up at the provincial set up and see is such a mini league viable. A4 and LC only, run for 3 months, includes pre talks and maybe an email afterwards with commonly observed mistakes and comments. maybe 12 races and at least 5 plus a sign off before your license is allowed be used for open racing.

I realise it is all pie in the sky and we will be back discussing the same thing next year as most people will not put forward such motions, or volunteer to run such events or sign off on club members. I say this as someone who will do very little about it unless I remember when the motions call comes out.

buffalo

brocbrocach wrote: »

I'm only the messenger!! Ask the man himself!

Well don't twist his words. He clearly said a local club league would suffice.

CramCycle wrote: »

I would think either a mandatory pink slip from the track, or an A4 league in Mondello / Corkagh Park that runs for the first few months of the year. They could then have accreditors from different clubs sign people off as they see fit. A club league could do the same thing.

CramCycle

nee wrote: »

Well surely being signed off from a club league world be sufficient? You can't expect people to come from Munster, Connaught and the north to Corkagh or Mondello? That'd be ridiculous!

More than sufficient, even a mini league in each area run on a Saturday morning during the early season. A4 and LC only.

brocbrocach

buffalo wrote: »

Well don't twist his words. He clearly said a local club league would suffice.

Please don't imply that I'm out to twist anyone's words. If I took him up wrong that's a mistake and my misunderstanding of it was clear from my comments. Thank you for pointing it out but have some manners.
I took it to mean that people from a local league could sign off on the accreditation. It wasn't an outlandish reading of the sentence in the full context but apologies to CramCycle for taking him up wrong.
That makes much more sense to me. The main problem would be having regional or provincial officers willing to take such responsibility.

CramCycle

brocbrocach wrote: »

Please don't imply that I'm out to twist anyone's words. If I took him up wrong that's a mistake and my misunderstanding of it was clear from my comments. Thank you for pointing it out but have some manners.

I don't think he meant it in a bad way, just pointing it out that you may have missed it. Hugs for everyone.

The main problem would be having regional or provincial officers willing to take such responsibility.

Which will always be the problem, there are some phenomenal volunteers in Cycling Ireland who take on more work each they should but lets not fool ourselves into thinking that even if we came up with a reasonably simple plan it would work. We would need other volunteers and they seem to be hard to come by. I do little or nothing for my club but the little i do saps up a reasonable amount of time. i would certainly help run part of such a mini league if other clubs in the area would also volunteer.

If every club in a province put forward one oragniser, and also made marshalling a requirement for the sign off, then you could easily pull off 12 mini races. Leave the league open to A4s even after sign off an open it to LC riders as its not an open race. Enough numbers, enough marshals, lovely, but it is just a dream.

DKmac

To need "sign-off" to race based on a club league or track race experience is a complete non-runner for me. Most club leagues are glorified chain-gangs and have very little resemblance to an actual open race. Plus who's to say a lad who has raced ten races or whatever the criteria is of a sufficient standard just because he hasn't brought down the bunch or crashed e.g. you could be an atrocious "bike-handler" (as much as I despise the term I'll use it here) sit on the back of a few races get signed off and put yourself into a bunch of 100 riders and cause carnage. You'll also get a situation where lads are being signed off purely because a club secretary doesn't need the hassle of telling a someone he's not good enough.

In my opinion the problem is purely a case of participant numbers and course distance. The increase in incidents appears to match the increase in participation numbers.

Firstly, there is no plausible reason not to restrict races to online entry if anything it would make admin less of a headache for club involved and as shown in Ulster, the race becomes more manageable in terms of pre-determined numbers. It also it seems a more preferable method to those granting permits as they know exactly what to expect. If you don't know if you can make a race until the day, that's your problem not the organisers, the CI calendar is published at the start of the year so sign up for the ones you know you can definitely make.

The numbers issue then directly exasperates the issue of distance, in that it's far easier to sit in a bigger bunch for longer distances i.e. 50km in a bunch of 100 is arguably less difficult than 50km in a bunch of 60. Meaning more riders at the finish where these huge mass crashes are taking place. If you want more numbers in your race increase the distance or expect 100 lads across the road at the finish.

I really don't buy into rider ability being the big issue here, I find it condescending to be honest. Crashes happen in every class but due to the size of the bunch and shortness of races when a crash happens in A4 the results have the potential to be more catastrophic.

Thekeencyclist

Was there any real advantage to changing the points needed in A4 to get upgraded to A3 level (i.e. from 10 to 15). Is 15pts a lot to acquire for an upgrade or would maybe 12pts be more reasonable.
IMO this year, A4's in general are a lot stronger this year than compared to previous years and many would be well able for longer / hillier races (possibly same length as A3 races).
Not sure how many A4's are sitting on 10+ points but maybe when they achieve 10+pts, the hunger is there to get upgraded asap and they are just holding out for as long as possible in a race and then becoming potentially aggressive in the final km of a race which may lead towards some of the crashes that is happening.
Maybe CI need to revisit the numbers of points needed for an A3 upgrade from A4 at this years AGM, I believe the 15pts needed for an A3 upgrade was introduced to hold back as many A4s as possible from getting an A3 upgrade as A3 had a lot of lads racing in that category (Cant remember if this was introduced at the 2015 or 2016 AGM). I think the number of points needed to upgrade from A3 to A2 was also decreased from 15pts to 10pts and any A3's at the end of last year with 10pts+ got an automatic upgrade to A2 to reduce the overall A3 group of cyclists starting off this years race season.
I am sure a lot of A3s have managed to upgrade to A2 since the 15pts needed for A2 upgrade was reduced to 10pts and numbers in A3 may now be getting smaller.....
This may help reduce numbers in A4 slightly over time and longer races may weed out some of the weaker cyclists (who will get stronger over time anyway) and make things slightly safer at the latter end of a race.....

dahat

There is an article on Stickybottle from a recently upgraded A4 rider regarding A3 and how difficult it is to get pts for A2 with the amount of high class juniors mopping up points.

Shifting the problem from A4 to A3 isn't a solution, it looks like the grading system needs a reboot across A3 & A4.

Raymzor

dahat wrote: »

There is an article on Stickybottle from a recently upgraded A4 rider regarding A3 and how difficult it is to get pts for A2 with the amount of high class juniors mopping up points.

Shifting the problem from A4 to A3 isn't a solution, it looks like the grading system needs a reboot across A3 & A4.

My recollection of the change of points structure for the 2016 season which has remained for 2017 was to decrease the number of A3's by making it easier to get to A2-this also served to increase the number of A2s to encourage seperate A2 race-the A3 to A2 upgrade points required dropped from 15 to 10) and at the same time making it more difficult to get to A3 (A4 points to upgrade from 10 to 15).

dahat

Raymzor wrote: »

My recollection of the change of points structure for the 2016 season which has remained for 2017 was to decrease the number of A3's by making it easier to get to A2-this also served to increase the number of A2s to encourage seperate A2 race-the A3 to A2 upgrade points required dropped from 15 to 10) and at the same time making it more difficult to get to A3 (A4 points to upgrade from 10 to 15).

I would be unaware of anything before this season but it was just the reflections of one rider in the article. I know a few strong A3 lads who do comment that Juniors are very strong and mopping up pts while not being eligible for an upgrade.
Is there room for two Cats in A3, junior and normal A3?
15pts to get out of A4 is fair I think, requires a level of ability to amass 15pts imo.

Inquitus

Raymzor wrote: »

My recollection of the change of points structure for the 2016 season which has remained for 2017 was to decrease the number of A3's by making it easier to get to A2-this also served to increase the number of A2s to encourage seperate A2 race-the A3 to A2 upgrade points required dropped from 15 to 10) and at the same time making it more difficult to get to A3 (A4 points to upgrade from 10 to 15).

Aye but with the Juniors taking the vast majority of the A3 points getting to 10 instead of 15 is still very difficult. As people have said before if they can get the first unplaced A2/3/4 in handicaps then they should be able to get the first 8 Juniors and first 8 A3's and dish out points to both in an A3 race. This would be the simplest solution and would in a season or 2 re-balance the riders more evenly across the Cats, making A2 more viable as a standalone race.

JK.BMC

buffalo wrote: »

You think A4 would be empty if there were no cash prizes? Really?

My most memorable A4 prize was a 3rd place trophy, which is still on display several years later (thanks wav1!). The cash is nice, but if it was replaced by medals, trophies or jerseys at every level I'd still race. Nobody is racing in Ireland for the money, except perhaps the lads at the very high end - but even then they have sponsors.

If A4's are racing "for the money," while discussing issues like "FTP" and their personal training plans that they are likely paying some online dude a few quid for, not to mention full carbon bikes etc, they need a reality check, not a pay cheque.
I got a cheap yellow jersey for winning a league race - think I will frame it and stick it on the wall some day. Better than any money in an envelope.

Stevieg2009

JK.BMC wrote: »

If A4's are racing "for the money," while discussing issues like "FTP" and their personal training plans that they are likely paying some online dude a few quid for, not to mention full carbon bikes etc, they need a reality check, not a pay cheque.
I got a cheap yellow jersey for winning a league race - think I will frame it and stick it on the wall some day. Better than any money in an envelope.

Well said I don't know of any other Amateur sport and I stress Amateur that prizes are cash golf is a voucher some crystal e.t.c but not cash we are all Amateur at this level some lads really forget that and that by definition means for the love of your hobbies you do it

thekooman

Stevieg2009 wrote: »

Well said I don't know of any other Amateur sport and I stress Amateur that prizes are cash golf is a voucher some crystal e.t.c but not cash we are all Amateur at this level some lads really forget that and that by definition means for the love of your hobbies you do it

ah ya, exactly. im in this for the pain, the glory and the buns after. :P

CramCycle

thekooman wrote: »

ah ya, exactly. im in this for the pain, the glory and the buns after. :P

I only go to the Laragh Classic because of all the posh sandwiches and fancy cakes.

RobFowl

CramCycle wrote: »

I only go to the Laragh Classic because of all the posh sandwiches and fancy cakes.

Ditto, that and I can get a visa for de south side if have a legitimate reason to go (stealing cars doesn't seem to be considered that)

harringtonp

Inquitus wrote: »

Aye but with the Juniors taking the vast majority of the A3 points getting to 10 instead of 15 is still very difficult. As people have said before if they can get the first unplaced A2/3/4 in handicaps then they should be able to get the first 8 Juniors and first 8 A3's and dish out points to both in an A3 race. This would be the simplest solution and would in a season or 2 re-balance the riders more evenly across the Cats, making A2 more viable as a standalone race.

I'd disagree here, I've seen guys go to A2 this year who would be far better served in A3. As one guy put it he "got a few crappy placements in races over a couple of years and found himself A2". He has a good race head and half decent sprint and manage to get himself minor placings in a few races. He struggles in A1/2 races, is okay with A2s until the A1s come but then left stranded when they smash through the A2 group. Paradoxically you could say being upgraded to A2 could be the beginning of the end of his racing. Himself and another guy who was also upgraded to A2 (and is a little stronger but still never A1 material) now primarily look at A2/3 stage races for getting some enjoyment out of it.

wirelessdude01

harringtonp wrote: »

I'd disagree here, I've seen guys go to A2 this year who would be far better served in A3. As one guy put it he "got a few crappy placements in races over a couple of years and found himself A2". He has a good race head and half decent sprint and manage to get himself minor placings in a few races. He struggles in A1/2 races, is okay with A2s until the A1s come but then left stranded when they smash through the A2 group. Paradoxically you could say being upgraded to A2 could be the beginning of the end of his racing. Himself and another guy who was also upgraded to A2 (and is a little stronger but still never A1 material) now primarily look at A2/3 stage races for getting some enjoyment out of it.

You also find quite a lot of these guys race the mondello series and Vets as their primary races as well.

Inquitus

harringtonp wrote: »

I'd disagree here, I've seen guys go to A2 this year who would be far better served in A3. As one guy put it he "got a few crappy placements in races over a couple of years and found himself A2". He has a good race head and half decent sprint and manage to get himself minor placings in a few races. He struggles in A1/2 races, is okay with A2s until the A1s come but then left stranded when they smash through the A2 group. Paradoxically you could say being upgraded to A2 could be the beginning of the end of his racing. Himself and another guy who was also upgraded to A2 (and is a little stronger but still never A1 material) now primarily look at A2/3 stage races for getting some enjoyment out of it.

Aye but if A2 were to become a Cat in its own right then it would be a natural progression, as it is I agree the step up from A3 to A1/2 is a wide chasm.

I got up from A4 to A3 and was there or thereabouts for points in A3 every week, got a new job with lots of travel, family circumstances changed and I can't train as much as before, as well as being away with work for 1/2 weeks at a time fairly often, I asked about a downgrade to A4 and CI rejected it out of hand, but given the way my life is now, I am not fit enough, nor likely to get fit enough, to get round A3 week in week out, so my Open racing is also all but done at this point, I didn't take out a license this year.

dahat

Anyone doing the A4 in Shannonside tomorrow?
Travelling as chances are getting thin on the ground now for me.

Sarz91

dahat wrote: »

Anyone doing the A4 in Shannonside tomorrow?
Travelling as chances are getting thin on the ground now for me.

How many points do you need for an upgrade? Tour of Omagh and the Wexford 2 day are coming up which seem like pretty good opportunities to score points.

Miklos

Tour of Omagh is closed though. Our team didn't get in as we had a team in it last year, going to the Connacht 2 Day instead.