FTP and cycle racing.

dahat

370 watts doing VO2 max intervals at 120% is 444 watts and to hold them for 3 mins on on TrainerRoad is a whole load of hurt.

Kudos to the OP if he can hold them for 8 plus reps.

Raymzor

Lumen wrote: »

FTP is power for an hour not 20 mins.

Thanks Lumen. You are correct I meant FTP not 20min. My 20min power was 292w. FTP 277w calculated.

JK.BMC

dahat wrote: »

Hope I don't meet you at any race in turn up at!

You should progress quickly from A4 with that kind of FTP figure.

Eh......

Looking at the maths, those numbers are just shy of a world tour pro rider, if my mental arithmetic is up to scratch

And I thought A4 was for beginners!

Plastik

FWIW at a usual season racing weight of about 73-74kg 5min 404w/5.5wkg, and 332w/20min 4.4wkg was enough to see me more or less pick and choose which breaks I wanted to go with in A3 on any given day. Now racing A2 and would be absolute packfodder for some (probably a lot) of lads racing A1. And it was a long hard road to get to that point. I started racing in 2012 and scored 1 point in my first ever race, but there the well ran dry. I self-upgraded to A3 over the winter with a few lads in the club to do Gorey in 2013 but I was out of my depth in A3 essentially just hanging on for the best part of two years. Towards the end of 2014 I started to be able to consider making woefully weak attempts to get in a break. 2015 and early 2016 A3 was a doddle, but great fun at the same time as could move around at will, do what I wanted, go up the road, play with the juniors.

No one really cares what your FTP is or what FTP you need for racing. You don't need any FTP for racing, you need a love of racing to race. IMO on any given day there is less than 10% of the field actually willing to attack/race/try and get upgraded. There are a huge amount of people that are just happy to turn up, sign on, ride around at a fast pace and go home feeling good or lamenting with their pals afterwards disecting what could have been but was never really going to happen in the first place. And that's fine too. There's nothing wrong with going racing and being content in the Cat that you're racing in with the knowledge that it's the right place for you given your ability and the time you're willing to devote to training.

As much as results, scoring points and getting upgraded is the self validation that a lot of riders crave it is a double edged sword.

Raymzor

Plastik wrote: »

FWIW at a usual season racing weight of about 73-74kg 5min 404w/5.5wkg, and 332w/20min 4.4wkg was enough to see me more or less pick and choose which breaks I wanted to go with in A3 on any given day. Now racing A2 and would be absolute packfodder for some (probably a lot) of lads racing A1. And it was a long hard road to get to that point. I started racing in 2012 and scored 1 point in my first ever race, but there the well ran dry. I self-upgraded to A3 over the winter with a few lads in the club to do Gorey in 2013 but I was out of my depth in A3 essentially just hanging on for the best part of two years. Towards the end of 2014 I started to be able to consider making woefully weak attempts to get in a break. 2015 and early 2016 A3 was a doddle, but great fun at the same time as could move around at will, do what I wanted, go up the road, play with the juniors.

No one really cares what your FTP is or what FTP you need for racing. You don't need any FTP for racing, you need a love of racing to race. IMO on any given day there is less than 10% of the field actually willing to attack/race/try and get upgraded. There are a huge amount of people that are just happy to turn up, sign on, ride around at a fast pace and go home feeling good or lamenting with their pals afterwards disecting what could have been but was never really going to happen in the first place. And that's fine too. There's nothing wrong with going racing and being content in the Cat that you're racing in with the knowledge that it's the right place for you given your ability and the time you're willing to devote to training.

As much as results, scoring points and getting upgraded is the self validation that a lot of riders crave it is a double edged sword.

Thanks for your post. I agree with your comments on enjoying racing. I'll be happy with survival in the A3 bunch! It can be frustrating if you show up and get dropped early though!

harringtonp

Raymzor wrote: »

Thanks for your post. i got to A3 at end of last year.
what was ur 5 min and 1 min power tests last year?
i got out of A4 with 1, 5, 20min (FTP) 6.6,4.6, 3.7 or 488w, 340w, 270w at 74kg

Haven't actually properly tested in a couple of years but when I last did (and level has more or less stayed the same) it was 1m at 576, 5m@375 and 20m@315.

Now I know 20min@315 gives 300 applying the 95% rule. However without going into details I can be reasonably confident that after collecting training and racing power data for over 3 years that my race season FTP is consistently within 5W of 290.

The 5m value of 375 was done on a steep hill and out of the saddle at times, I wouldn't hit this number testing on the flat and staying well down in the drops all the time.

To get an idea of what is minimally needed 5m wise have a look at the Ballyorgan segment in the A3 Ras Killmallock last year

https://www.strava.com/activities/692340816

The watt values you see for the climb were for positioning up towards the front of the bunch. I say minimally as there was not a large junior presence in this race.

Lumen

harringtonp wrote: »

Haven't actually properly tested in a couple of years but when I last did (and level has more or less stayed the same) it was 1m at 576, 5m@375 and 20m@315.

Now I know 20min@315 gives 300 applying the 95% rule. However without going into details I can be reasonably confident that after collecting training and racing power data for over 3 years that my race season FTP is consistently within 5W of 290.

You can derive threshold (not FTP) and AWC from your CP5 and CP20 values.

Threshold=t
AWC=a

For CP5=375, 375=t+(a/5)
For CP20=315, 315=t+(a/20)

(4*315)-375=4t+(a/5)-t-(a/5)
Giving t=885/3=295W

And your AWC=(375-295)*5=400W.Min

Knowing your threshold and AWC means you can simply calculate your maximal power for any aerobic interval, by spreading the AWC over the number of minutes and adding to your threshold.

So your FTP (CP60) = 295 + (400/60) = 301.7W
Or for half an hour, CP30 = 295 + (400/30) = 308.3W

Simples! No need for the 95% crap.

...if you believe in the AWC model.

Raymzor

Lumen wrote: »

You can derive threshold (not FTP) and AWC from your CP5 and CP20 values.

Threshold=t
AWC=a

For CP5=375, 375=t+(a/5)
For CP20=315, 315=t+(a/20)

(4*315)-375=4t+(a/5)-t-(a/5)
Giving t=885/3=295W

And your AWC=(375-295)*5=400W.Min

Knowing your threshold and AWC means you can simply calculate your maximal power for any aerobic interval, but spreading the AWC over the number of minutes and adding to your threshold.

So your FTP (CP60) = 295 + (400/60) = 301.7W
Or for half an hour, CP30 = 295 + (400/30) = 308.3W

Simples! No need for the 95% crap.

...if you believe in the AWC model.

Thanks Lumen
Could be very useful for a TT some day!

TCRDublin

tuxy wrote: »

Yeah I'm very happy with how training is going consistency over the winter has been key. But I really have no sprint. I will probably drag bigger guys to the line and they beat me on sprint. Unfortunately I don't see anyone want to work with me on break away at A4 level.

Breakaways don't happen in A4 from a lot of higher category racers I have spoken to.

Inquitus

TCRDublin wrote: »

Breakaways don't happen in A4 from a lot of higher category racers I have spoken to.

If your figures are correct you could go from the gun in A4 and ride away from everyone winning by several minutes.

harringtonp

Had no idea what these concepts were until I read

http://www.dynamicdevices.ch/blog/criticalpower.html
http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/AWCReconstitution.aspx

and quite a few other pages. All very empirical and hard to know how to use it. One thing that did catch my eye though is that going forward this modelling might be able to give you a real time garmin estimate of how much "anerobic juice" you have left. You plug in your CP and AWC and it is keeping track of time by how much above CP and subtracting this from your AWC. We instinctively feel when we're running down the juice but its often hard to know how much of it you have left, one moment you think you're okay then you hit a hill and realise its gone.

Still even though its good to know all this stuff has no relevance to my training anyway.

Lumen wrote: »

You can derive threshold (not FTP) and AWC from your CP5 and CP20 values.

Threshold=t
AWC=a

For CP5=375, 375=t+(a/5)
For CP20=315, 315=t+(a/20)

(4*315)-375=4t+(a/5)-t-(a/5)
Giving t=885/3=295W

And your AWC=(375-295)*5=400W.Min

Knowing your threshold and AWC means you can simply calculate your maximal power for any aerobic interval, but spreading the AWC over the number of minutes and adding to your threshold.

So your FTP (CP60) = 295 + (400/60) = 301.7W
Or for half an hour, CP30 = 295 + (400/30) = 308.3W

Simples! No need for the 95% crap.

...if you believe in the AWC model.

harringtonp

Plastik wrote: »

There are a huge amount of people that are just happy to turn up, sign on, ride around at a fast pace and go home feeling good or lamenting with their pals afterwards disecting what could have been but was never really going to happen in the first place. And that's fine too. There's nothing wrong with going racing and being content in the Cat that you're racing in with the knowledge that it's the right place for you given your ability and the time you're willing to devote to training..

I'm one of these riders, despite racing for several years now have never ever got a point, voluntarily upgraded from A4 and delighted to have done so. At times came across an attitude of you should earn your way up but I've raced with guys who came up to A3 only to get find themselves getting spat out in races where I'd be comfortably on.

When you're in this mode you get your kicks out of other things like being able to finish in a large group in hard classics such as the Visit Nenagh Classic or stretch a bunch a bit and see team mates launch of this and get themselves a few points.

harringtonp

Raymzor wrote: »

Thanks Lumen
Could be very useful for a TT some day!

TTs are different, you'll need to figure out separately the approximate wattage you can hold for 20 min or so in a TT position and you this to measure your effort in races.

Raymzor

TCRDublin wrote: »

Breakaways don't happen in A4 from a lot of higher category racers I have spoken to.

With you power all you have to do is attack of the top of a drag 10km from home and it's yours.

Kaisr Sose

Raymzor wrote: »

With you power all you have to do is attack of the top of a drag 10km from home and it's yours.

We look forward to your posts in the "Tell us about your cycle today thread"

No pressure...:D

GiantRosa

Just seen this post and might be some interest to some of you, regards FTP or more precise Lactate Threshold.

I've got tested before for VO2 in Trinity and UCD and was given the resultant aerobic/ anaerobic thresholds and HR zones.
Last week I got test by Lactate Ireland in Wheelworx, his system is gear up to suit cyclists and Triathletes. His Cyclus2 ergometer allows for you to fit whatever bike you ride on it, hence normal feel and bike-fit. His protocol for testing was developed in Bakala Academy (Quickstep testing centre), where he complete a sport science internship. The resultant data is given as Fat & Lactate threshold and Power& HR training zones. All these exhaustive tests are extremely painful but been able to test on my bike......seemed to make it somewhat..........I wont say easier but better!!

Here's a link http://www.lactateireland.ie/

clod71

niceonetom wrote: »

If that's correct and you're not out of A4 by Easter then you are doing something very very wrong. Lads do the Rás with less than that.

Based on the table above, he's actually much better than a Rás rider...
He's a World Class or International Pro.
Maybe we have a potential Eddie Dunbar in the forum :rolleyes:

harringtonp

clod71 wrote: »

Based on the table above, he's actually much better than a Rás rider...
He's a World Class or International Pro.
Maybe we have a potential Eddie Dunbar in the forum :rolleyes:

Well guys, just checked TCRDublin's profile and he has only made 3 posts, reasonable chance he hasn't been back on here since. If you are TCR would love to hear from you, you certainly got a mini storm going
?

So the question is, is his stated FTP (see page 1):

"I'm starting out on my first open road racing season in A4 this year as well. I have been following a structured training plan for months for the 2017 season and my FTP is 370 and I'm 67kg"

1) A piss take and he's laughing his socks off
2) A genuine newbie error and he genuinely thinks that is his FTP
3) It is in fact his FTP and he's one of those rare talents

Which number do you think ?

For 3) I wonder what the likes of Damien Shaw would have measured at in his first year racing ? Or take a top national triathlete who has just switched and got into racing, what figures do they have ?

In Ras Chlar a few years ago in the A4 race, a triathlete just rode of the front early on and stayed away the whole race. The training triathletes do as well would be very specific towards producing a high FTP, especially as the cycling part of an olympic distance is triathlon is a balls out 40km leg.

harringtonp

GiantRosa wrote: »

Just seen this post and might be some interest to some of you, regards FTP or more precise Lactate Threshold.

I've got tested before for VO2 in Trinity and UCD and was given the resultant aerobic/ anaerobic thresholds and HR zones.
Last week I got test by Lactate Ireland in Wheelworx, his system is gear up to suit cyclists and Triathletes. His Cyclus2 ergometer allows for you to fit whatever bike you ride on it, hence normal feel and bike-fit. His protocol for testing was developed in Bakala Academy (Quickstep testing centre), where he complete a sport science internship. The resultant data is given as Fat & Lactate threshold and Power& HR training zones. All these exhaustive tests are extremely painful but been able to test on my bike......seemed to make it somewhat..........I wont say easier but better!!

Here's a link http://www.lactateireland.ie/

Just want to note that once you've done a few flat TTs you can very easily identify your LTHR. I've looked back over mine on Strava and it comes out almost exactly the same each time. You look at the HR curve on Strava and then crop out the start section (where you see it rising) and the end (where the line is in sight and you put in that final spurt) and see the average.

I train with power but if doing for example a 20 min SS session, will keep the HR at least a couple of beats below LTHR even if this means dropping the power a bit.

Seadin

I found ftp was only any good when it came to time trialling as you know what you are capable of and you push that bit more when the time trial really mattered.

It is no good having a high ftp if you can't ride the bunch in a race. Developing the racing brain is more important than how much power you can put out. It can help up hills but its not much good if you are out of position in the bunch and missing the vital breaks.

I would not display the heart rate reading or powermeter reading on my garmin in a race as it's a distraction and you are not clued in to what's going on in the race. Just speed distance and time I display when racing. I have HR and power recording in the background and analyse afterwards but not during the race.

When training I use all the training tools I have.

GiantRosa

harringtonp wrote: »

Just want to note that once you've done a few flat TTs you can very easily identify your LTHR. I've looked back over mine on Strava and it comes out almost exactly the same each time. You look at the HR curve on Strava and then crop out the start section (where you see it rising) and the end (where the line is in sight and you put in that final spurt) and see the average.

I train with power but if doing for example a 20 min SS session, will keep the HR at least a couple of beats below LTHR even if this means dropping the power a bit.

I understand your point, but isn't this method just confirmation of a precise test? And HR isn't really the primary variable but power, HR can vary but a power number is definite.........for training Sub-threshold, Threshold and Max sessions. I have done 20 min FTP but climbing because I keep a better consistency than on the flat. This is where I found the ergometer test similar in regards to honest effort due to the ergometer resistance, 100W initially with 40W increases every 8 mins.

tunney

TCRDublin wrote: »

I think people are getting too hung up on FTP, it's just a number for setting your training zones. If you're starting out racing, just enjoy the experience of it, good bad or indifferent. You will have a lot to learn. I'm starting out on my first open road racing season in A4 this year as well. I have been following a structured training plan for months for the 2017 season and my FTP is 370 and I'm 67kg. But that doesn't mean I'm going to win anything. I have to learn the intricacies of racing such as handling / conserving energy / when to attack etc...

niceonetom wrote: »

If that's correct and you're not out of A4 by Easter then you are doing something very very wrong. Lads do the Rás with less than that.

Maybe his brakes were rubbing?

crazy_kenny

Second year racing a4 this year. Being training since September. Last year I kinda skipped the whole aerobic building training and went straight into high intensity workouts. I had no issues staying with the front group in races just didn't have enough towards the finish.

This year I started with a 12 week plan on TrainerRoad for aerobic fitness. In January I added higher intensity rides and race specific efforts. I also did some gym work like squats, walking lunges, back extension and Swiss ball workouts. My FTP on the turbo trainer is 3.5w/kg at 63kg.

First race is the Lacey cup in 12 days.
Did a recon spin couple of weeks back. Nice course, one 10 minute climb after 15km and another 5km from the finish. it should suit my small weight so can't wait to race.

InTheAttic

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Second year racing a4 this year. Being training since September. Last year I kinda skipped the whole aerobic building training and went straight into high intensity workouts. I had no issues staying with the front group in races just didn't have enough towards the finish.

You need to hide and save your energy until the jump at the last 100 metres

dahat

Jesus I'll be the fattest A4 lad I'm the country looking at weigjts here.

Think I'll start on Limerick myself to a feel for some race pace before Carrick on Paddy's Day.

Hiding till the last 100 metres is solid advice looking back on some club league races from last year.

Harrybelafonte

90kg. Beat that.

InTheAttic

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

90kg. Beat that.

90kg here too.

If I lose much weight, my power will drop. I'm happy at my weight for my height (I'm 6'2").

People get too hung up on weight when it comes to cycling.

This former Paris-Roubaix & TDF stage winner was a 94kg pro cyclist. It proves that weight isn't really a big factor unless you plan on climbing mont ventoux.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_B%C3%A4ckstedt

niceonetom

Backstedt may have been heavy, but in w/kg he was still an absolute beast. In terms of raw power he might be the biggest engine ever in the sport. He claims to be the heaviest man to have ever finished the Tour de France, which to me is very nearly as impressive as winning the thing.

If you're going to compare your weight to his, you should also compare your power, just for the sake of humility.

This is fairly bonkers. NP of nearly 400w for over 6.5 hours.

Beasty

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

90kg. Beat that.

Get back down that queue.....




Having said that I don't plan doing any A4 racing, and weight is less of an issue at the track and the likes of Corkagh Park. Hopefully I'll be down a few kg by the time the season starts for me, but still way ahead of you Harry

Harrybelafonte

Good. I'm glad some of the heavier crowd have started to surface.