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FTP and cycle racing.

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    #992
    Paul_Mc1988
    Registered Users Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Paul_Mc1988


    75 watts is a good jump. Credit to how hard your going.

    Im on my final week of sweetspot base low volume II. Only 3.5 hours per week. This last week in monotonous.... 60-70%FTP training sessions which hardly work up a sweat but i think its struchtured like this as a rest period before another FTP test. Started of at 188watts 6 weeks ago. Going to attempt a stepper test on Saturday to see how much my FTP has changed.


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    #993
    dahat
    Registered Users Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    tuxy wrote: »
    4 Weeks of 10 hours a week and I'm now up to 235 ftp and down 2 kg to 78

    I expect things to progress much slower over the coming months.

    72kg and 280 ftp would be the goal for March.
    For me the weight will be easy but increasing power will be difficult.

    235 to 280, I'd be interested to see can you achieve this gain, it's a massive jump.


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    #994
    Paul_Mc1988
    Registered Users Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Paul_Mc1988


    dahat wrote:
    235 to 280, I'd be interested to see can you achieve this gain, it's a massive jump.


    Considering he moved from 160 to 235 in 4 weeks a jump of 75 watts id say another 45 is easily achievable over 20 odd weeks.


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    #995
    sullzz
    Registered Users Posts: 2,409 ✭✭✭sullzz


    Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »
    Considering he moved from 160 to 235 in 4 weeks a jump of 75 watts id say another 45 is easily achievable over 20 odd weeks.

    Not necessarily , an FTP of 160 would be the lower of the standard , so to go to 235 would be expected , 235 is a decent FTP to build off but to get another 45 in top of that will require a good bit of work , certainly not " easily achievable " .


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    #996
    dahat
    Registered Users Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »
    Considering he moved from 160 to 235 in 4 weeks a jump of 75 watts id say another 45 is easily achievable over 20 odd weeks.

    A further 19% increase is a very hard task imo. As I said I'd very interested to see can this be achieved by accurate testing.


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    #997
    dahat
    Registered Users Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    I'm hoping to lose 5kgs-10kgs with a possible drop in my ftp I hope to have a more efficient use of a higher watt/kg figure next season.

    A savage high ftp but fat arse hindered me in certain races last year, it will be interesting to see what shape I arrive into March in.


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    #998
    StevieGriff
    Registered Users Posts: 859 ✭✭✭StevieGriff


    Jumping from 160 to 235 is probably after time off from structure I'd imagine, the body can adapt back to a previous fitness level very quickly. 280w at 72kg/3.88w/kg should be very attainable over a 20week period.


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    #999
    dahat
    Registered Users Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    StevieGriff wrote: »
    Jumping from 160 to 235 is probably after time off from structure I'd imagine, the body can adapt back to a previous fitness level very quickly. 280w at 72kg/3.88w/kg should be very attainable over a 20week period.

    It's amazing how much of a hindrance weight is when analyzing figures, I'd have to hit 90kgs at 350 ftp for a similar 3.88w/kg.

    It's actually depressing really.


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    #1000
    Chumpski
    Registered Users Posts: 741 ✭✭✭Chumpski


    Do guys in the higher categories, than A4, worry about FTP?

    Or turbo trainers or measuring power etc?


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    #1001
    dahat
    Registered Users Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    Chumpski wrote: »
    Do guys in the higher categories, than A4, worry about FTP?

    Or turbo trainers or measuring power etc?

    It's the basis or at the very least part of establishing training zones.


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    #1002
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    StevieGriff wrote: »
    Jumping from 160 to 235 is probably after time off from structure I'd imagine, the body can adapt back to a previous fitness level very quickly. 280w at 72kg/3.88w/kg should be very attainable over a 20week period.

    Yes this was it exactly. I was probably around 280 before the 3 months off the bike. The 160 was where I was at before starting to train again. If I am to get to 280 which is probably about where I was at before(no power meter back then) it will take months of consistent training.


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    #1003
    StevieGriff
    Registered Users Posts: 859 ✭✭✭StevieGriff


    dahat wrote: »
    It's amazing how much of a hindrance weight is when analyzing figures, I'd have to hit 90kgs at 350 ftp for a similar 3.88w/kg.

    It's actually depressing really.

    I wouldn't over analyze it. Horses for courses and all take. Big power numbers don't really get slowed down by weight until after 3% gradients in my opinion. So the ball isn't always in the light guys court.
    Example: One of my clubs usual routes takes in a 5.5k climb at 3%, to stay on I've to do in the region of 5.8w/kg while my club mates are generally doing about 4.5w/kg but at pretty much the same power give or take 10 or 15w.


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    #1004
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Chumpski wrote: »
    Do guys in the higher categories, than A4, worry about FTP?

    Or turbo trainers or measuring power etc?

    I know a good few lads who have done the rás. Some of them don't even use heart rate monitors never mind power while other do all training sessions based off power.

    There are different ways to train.
    When I'm training with my club or racing power isn't of much use to me. I can either hold on or I'm out the back.
    For a solo break away power would be a big help but I've never been strong enough for that.
    Power would also work great for time trials but only a few races a year have them.

    When training solo it's also good to add structure and gauge intervals.


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    #1005
    Chumpski
    Registered Users Posts: 741 ✭✭✭Chumpski


    I guess there is also hard & focused work, willingness to suffer, talent, determination, race smarts which also matter to perform well. Goes to show there are guys out there doing the Ras who race and train on feel and knowing their bodies through experience and experimentation.

    Power meters and HR monitors are useful tools for measuring effort and seeing fitness gains.


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    #1006
    Paul_Mc1988
    Registered Users Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Paul_Mc1988


    dahat wrote:
    A further 19% increase is a very hard task imo. As I said I'd very interested to see can this be achieved by accurate testing.

    A hard task but one which id say is achievable considering OP was previously racing A4 and considers he was around there previously.. at around 80 kgs myself im hoping to break 240 to hit 3 w/kg.

    How much do gains taper off as people start hitting higher wattages with regards to their own individual physiology?


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    #1007
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    StevieGriff wrote: »
    I wouldn't over analyze it. Horses for courses and all take. Big power numbers don't really get slowed down by weight until after 3% gradients in my opinion. So the ball isn't always in the light guys court.
    Example: One of my clubs usual routes takes in a 5.5k climb at 3%, to stay on I've to do in the region of 5.8w/kg while my club mates are generally doing about 4.5w/kg but at pretty much the same power give or take 10 or 15w.

    What about in the longer A3 races where breakaways are attempted frequently.
    In A4 you can sit in and if you have big power then you're in with a good chance in the typical sprint finish.
    What about in the longer A3 races where breakaways are attempted frequently.
    Accelerating more weight up to speed to try to get in breaks takes more power. Combined with the longer distance this could cause fatigue before the race is over.

    Generally unless someone gets extremely skinny weight can be lost with little or no power loss.
    Most people racing will spend hundreds of hours in the year on the bike. With so much effort why not include some diet modification into your training regime.

    I'm still A4 so I'm open to be corrected by someone who actually is A3 or above.


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    #1008
    Kaisr Sose
    Registered Users Posts: 3,256 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »
    A hard task but one which id say is achievable considering OP was previously racing A4 and considers he was around there previously.. at around 80 kgs myself im hoping to break 240 to hit 3 w/kg.

    How much do gains taper off as people start hitting higher wattages with regards to their own individual physiology?

    Big jumps are possible if you train properly. I go back a while on test data but three tests come to mind:
    240w @ 63kg (coming back from illness)
    290w @ 61kg (about one year later)
    320w @ 59kg (about a year later)

    I trained HR based on zones set by the lab. Threshold HR went from 179 to 184. If you train the zones,suffer, and crucially recover, you will get the results.
    I would say I got to about 340/350w before I packed in racing as I was beating my TT times and average speeds were up on all solo training spins – way pre-Strava!! They were the days lol.

    I would love to know what it is now at 49. At least the weight is still in the 60’s!


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    #1009
    StevieGriff
    Registered Users Posts: 859 ✭✭✭StevieGriff


    tuxy wrote: »
    What about in the longer A3 races where breakaways are attempted frequently.
    In A4 you can sit in and if you have big power then you're in with a good chance in the typical sprint finish.
    What about in the longer A3 races where breakaways are attempted frequently.
    Accelerating more weight up to speed to try to get in breaks takes more power. Combined with the longer distance this could cause fatigue before the race is over.

    Generally unless someone gets extremely skinny weight can be lost with little or no power loss.
    Most people racing will spend hundreds of hours in the year on the bike. With so much effort why not include some diet modification into your training regime.

    I'm still A4 so I'm open to be corrected by someone who actually is A3 or above.

    Oh yeah, for sure. I'm just saying that people tend to obsess a bit too much about w/kg in a racing scene with very few proper climbs. Every rider can benefit from dropping down to their lowest functional/healthy weight.
    If you are someone with a naturally big frame you have to embrace the big power numbers it usually comes with. Likewise, if you have got a naturally small frame you should embrace the advantage of having a good w/kg.


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    #1010
    Raymzor
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭Raymzor


    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    Big jumps are possible if you train properly. I go back a while on test data but three tests come to mind:
    240w @ 63kg (coming back from illness)
    290w @ 61kg (about one year later)
    320w @ 59kg (about a year later)

    I trained HR based on zones set by the lab. Threshold HR went from 179 to 184. If you train the zones,suffer, and crucially recover, you will get the results.
    I would say I got to about 340/350w before I packed in racing as I was beating my TT times and average speeds were up on all solo training spins – way pre-Strava!! They were the days lol.

    I would love to know what it is now at 49. At least the weight is still in the 60’s!

    320w ftp at 59kg is serious ratio of 5.42w/kg. You must have been winning regularly.


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    #1011
    Paul_Mc1988
    Registered Users Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Paul_Mc1988


    Kaisr Sose wrote:
    Big jumps are possible if you train properly. I go back a while on test data but three tests come to mind: 240w @ 63kg (coming back from illness) 290w @ 61kg (about one year later) 320w @ 59kg (about a year later)


    320w is seriously impressive at that weight. Going off the other figures and jumps of 30-40watts over a year is what i thought to myself was achievable until the pleatau stage.


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    #1012
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,083 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Raymzor wrote: »
    320w ftp at 59kg is serious ratio of 5.42w/kg. You must have been winning regularly.
    I think somewhere in the last 68 pages of this thread someone must have pointed out that threshold power/weight does not equal winning in Irish road racing. :D


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    #1013
    Raymzor
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭Raymzor


    Lumen wrote: »
    I think somewhere in the last 68 pages of this thread someone must have pointed out that threshold power/weight does not equal winning in Irish road racing. :D

    Ok so. National Time Trial!


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    #1014
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,083 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Raymzor wrote: »
    Ok so. National Time Trial!
    Sure, because there are loads of 59kg time trial specialists. :pac:


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    #1015
    thekooman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,221 ✭✭✭thekooman


    rigoberto Uran was 3rd in the Tour @ 62kg
    RIGOBERTO URÁN (CANNONDALE-DRAPAC) – OVERALL DATA STAGE 20 – 8TH PLACE +0:31
    Time: 28:46
    Speed: 46.9kph
    Average Power: 378w, 6.00w/kg
    Normalized Power: 389w, 6.17w/kg

    https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/stage-19-20-power-analysis-rigoberto-urans-road-glory/

    so if that guy at 59kg is putting out 320w FTP then he is in wrong place.


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    #1016
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,933 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I guess (and could be wrong) that there are alot of people here not comparing like with like. Maybe people should clarify if they are talking about sprint power, 10minute or an hour sustainable.


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    #1017
    py
    Registered Users Posts: 1,582 ✭✭✭py


    Yup, power profiles will be different for everyone.


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    #1018
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,083 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    thekooman wrote: »
    rigoberto Uran was 3rd in the Tour @ 62kg

    so if that guy at 59kg is putting out 320w FTP then he is in wrong place.

    I think you're underestimating the effect that small differences have in elite sport.

    Uran did 378w for 29 minutes, at the end of a 3 week grand tour. I'm guessing his rested FTP is well over 400W.

    320W and 400W are not even close. There are domestic riders with 350W FTP who, with the greatest of respect for their talent and commitment, would last about 5 minutes in a WorldTour peloton.

    edit: this is relevant http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/ronan-mclaughlins-data-from-ras-stage-4-analysis-by-forme-coachings-dan-fleeman/
    The first hour of his breakaway saw him tap out a hard but sustained 350w, settling into a good tempo and making the most of his Aero aids to average a massive 47kph. At this point he already had 2 and a half hours of racing with a NP of 355 in his legs.

    After this most riders would really start to fatigue and the power would drop off massively but this is a rider who has a FTP of close to 400w or 5.9w/kg


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    #1019
    Kaisr Sose
    Registered Users Posts: 3,256 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    Raymzor wrote: »
    320w ftp at 59kg is serious ratio of 5.42w/kg. You must have been winning regularly.


    It’s a good question. No. I was not a really good racer yet I had a good engine. Vo2 in the mid 70’s. I did not have much of a sprint and that’s crucial to winning and racing. While 320 is good, alot of A’s and even some B’s had thresholds above 350w and far higher 5min /max power - crucial figures!
    Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »
    320w is seriously impressive at that weight. Going off the other figures and jumps of 30-40watts over a year is what i thought to myself was achievable until the pleatau stage.

    I would have preferred to have a better explosive power for the intense periods of racing. If I was doing it again, that’s what I would really work at as it. I am going to invest in a PM and see what life at 50 is like! Good luck with your training. If you get the right mix or efforts, you will get physiological improvement.

    I love this thread and some of the regular posters here are really dedicated to the numbers, and achieving great numbers. Keep up the good work!


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    #1020
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,933 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Lumen wrote: »
    320W and 400W are not even close. There are domestic riders with 350W FTP who, with the greatest of respect for their talent and commitment, would last about 5 minutes in a WorldTour peloton

    I think you are being very generous, lasting 5 minutes would be something to be quite proud of for an average domestic rider


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    #1021
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,083 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    CramCycle wrote: »
    I think you are being very generous, lasting 5 minutes would be something to be quite proud of for an average domestic rider
    Ah, I dunno. Most of the peloton often mooches along at 200W or whatever.

    The problem is that you would get elbowed all the way to back and then spat out as soon as the road goes up.

    Elite athletes are well-trained freaks. I could no more ride in the WorldTour than I could run alongside Usain Bolt in a 100m sprint or keep up with Mo Farah in a 5k. The only thing I have in common is my equipment.

    edit: I'm reminded of a clubmate who rode the nationals. "It was great until we got to the first hill".


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