FTP and cycle racing.

Delboy007

Thanks for that yea maybe that I will drop my canance in 1st two set and see if that helps and can bring it up if I feel I can. Was keeping it that high as they said too

CramCycle

Chumpski wrote: »

Everyone is different with regards to natural cadence. For me, I'm comfortable at 75-80. The drills say keep it at 85-90 and that causes my HR to go up over the sessions. I find 80-85 works better for me right now, pushing myself to spin more but not going too high yet. Over time i hope to increase it to 85+.

Maybe thats reason you are finding the workout too hard, 90+ cadence can be difficult to maintain if not natural for you?

+1 no matter what is recommended, the right cadence is different for everyone. I know people who can hammer away at 75rpm for 200km and average 30kmph without breaking a sweat, push them to 90rpm and they wouldn't make if 2km down the road. Same with myself, when out of shape, about 75rpm suits me best, when in form, I can sit at 110rpm for hours on end. If I sit at the wrong cadence, I can blow up in seconds, whether that be below or above.

joey100

@delboy, what was the average for the 5 minutes clearing effort before the 20min part and then the average for the 20min part? What percentage of the 20min part did you use??

Delboy007

joey100 wrote: »

@delboy, what was the average for the 5 minutes clearing effort before the 20min part and then the average for the 20min part? What percentage of the 20min part did you use??

Hi
I just took what Trainerroad told me my FTP was. here is the link to my test
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6620863-20-minute-ftp-test

joey100

Looks pretty well paced. Lot of time people will have a lower 5 minutes than 20min and that can lead to the FTP being wrong. Yours was well above though. I'd give it a bit of time and see how you get on with it. Might take a week or two to get used to teh intervals. Might be that you are a lower % of the 20min FTP than how trainer road calculated it. I think they use 95%, you might be closer to 92.5% of the 20mon average.

Delboy007

joey100 wrote: »

Looks pretty well paced. Lot of time people will have a lower 5 minutes than 20min and that can lead to the FTP being wrong. Yours was well above though. I'd give it a bit of time and see how you get on with it. Might take a week or two to get used to teh intervals. Might be that you are a lower % of the 20min FTP than how trainer road calculated it. I think they use 95%, you might be closer to 92.5% of the 20mon average.

Ah sound thanks, so by that my FTP could be more around 250, will drop it down to that and then try and have my cadence a lower and see if that helps tonight when I do on of the workouts.

Paul_Mc1988

Delboy007 wrote:

Ah sound thanks, so by that my FTP could be more around 250, will drop it down to that and then try and have my cadence a lower and see if that helps tonight when I do on of the workouts.

I originally started with an ftp of 188 and bumped that to 208 after a week of sweet spot base II (also skipped sweet spot base I) then further bumped my ftp to 230 for the final three weeks. Im now in a build phase with my ftp set at 250. Its really hard but managable. At the start my engine would die after 5 minutes at 90cadence or above. Now during hard efforts my body spins the legs at 100 like im on auto pilot and if i drop below 100 i become laboured...

Try drop the FTP to 225 for a week or two as your body becomes accustomed to training indoors on a turbo in what are usually hotter conditions. Then bump to 240 for a week then 250 for the final few weeks.

On a side note anyone tried the spanish needle workout. It's the first one to break me. 150% ftp (375watts) for 15 seconds then 15 seconds break repeated for 8 minutes.. 5 minute break then another 8 minute block repeated 6 times. The 15 seconds just wasnt enough recovery time.

duffyshuffle

Delboy007 wrote: »

Thanks for that. Yea I done d 20 min ftp test so should be around right.
My heart rate build over d internals too. I just loss d power in the legs to kerp the cadence up. My keep my cadence up 90 or 95; then near d end of the 2nd last set I can not keep it up and d more it falls d harder it is to keep the power up. Usely d 2 last one is hard and d last I have to bring down to 20%. Will test myself again I think. Also for my cycling in and out of work I find it hard to take it easy but need to start that to see if it helps.

Do you have a fan beside your turbo?
I think 95% of a 20 min test even with a 5 min clearer overestimates it a little bit, I use 92% or so, but then re-adjust after a session or two like you've done. Its just a number to base training off, don't get too hung up on it, if sessions are too hard, lower it, if they're too easy, increase it, and carry, re-test to see the gains, but you'll notice them along the way as workouts get too easy

Lumen

Doing repeated hard efforts is a trainable thing.

The maths behind these programs is very basic. Your anaerobic capacity (AWC) of 350-360W.min can be added to your threshold (~250W) and spread over however many minutes you choose, and after sufficient recovery you can repeat until you run out of muscle glycogen.

So you could do 10 x 5 mins of 320W in one session, with sufficient recovery between each one.

That's the theory. In practice, totally nope.

If you're planning on training steadily to peak in March (which is unusual, but that's apparently your plan) then you have 5 months of training ahead. You should be erring on the side of extreme caution. These initial workouts should feel easy. Otherwise you'll be burned out by Christmas.

tldr: If you're struggling to complete sessions then just lower the intensity until you can, and whatever you do make sure you have sufficient rest and recovery.

Delboy007

duffyshuffle wrote: »

Delboy007 wrote: »

Thanks for that. Yea I done d 20 min ftp test so should be around right.
My heart rate build over d internals too. I just loss d power in the legs to kerp the cadence up. My keep my cadence up 90 or 95; then near d end of the 2nd last set I can not keep it up and d more it falls d harder it is to keep the power up.    Usely d 2 last one is hard and d last I have to bring down to 20%. Will test myself again I think. Also for my cycling in and out of work I find it hard to take it easy but need to start that to see if it helps.

Do you have a fan beside your turbo?
I think 95% of a 20 min test even with a 5 min clearer overestimates it a little bit, I use 92% or so, but then re-adjust after a session or two like you've done. Its just a number to base training off, don't get too hung up on it, if sessions are too hard, lower it, if they're too easy, increase it, and carry, re-test to see the gains, but you'll notice them along the way as workouts get too easy

Thanks for that, yea I have a small fan and the slid door open behind me, but I am moving to the shed at the back of the garden to do my workouts and it is only a small wooden one so I would said I will no have the problem of over heating any more as will be in at about 9pm at night.
I am just worried if I drop the FTP too low I will not get the benefit of the training, but I think you are right just drop it down till I can do the workout and build from there.

Delboy007

Lumen wrote: »

Doing repeated hard efforts is a trainable thing.

The maths behind these programs is very basic. Your anaerobic capacity (AWC) of 350-360W.min can be added to your threshold (~250W) and spread over however many minutes you choose, and after sufficient recovery you can repeat until you run out of muscle glycogen.

So you could do 10 x 5 mins of 320W in one session, with sufficient recovery between each one.

That's the theory. In practice, totally nope.

If you're planning on training steadily to peak in March (which is unusual, but that's apparently your plan) then you have 5 months of training ahead. You should be erring on the side of extreme caution. These initial workouts should feel easy. Otherwise you'll be burned out by Christmas.

tldr: If you're struggling to complete sessions then just lower the intensity until you can, and whatever you do make sure you have sufficient rest and recovery.

Thanks for that, so it makes a bit more sense to me now, the problem is my FTP is too high and I am running out of muscle glycogen before the end of the workout.
Yea I agree my peak timing could be a bit off, should peak in the 1st week in April to do the race I came in 4th last year and if I can better that I will be up to A3, then plan to do the club league and club weekday training spin to keep the fitness and do some Open races over the season. Is this mad and a but stupid, this is my 1st time doing this so I could be way wrong. What would be the correct time to peak, do people still be in the build/Specialty Phase at the start of the racing season?

Chumpski

It depends on your goals.

If you want to hit good form early season, base in winter ofc, you might do your build phase in Jan/Feb. Then your very high intensity training in March/April. Take a break in April and repeat build and race periods then to peak again later in year. You might even repeat a small base period depending on your later season goals or how the early season went maybe?

Is it mad? As long as you are not going too deep now, I think its ok. It sounds like you might be though.

Alternatively, you could work it so you start your build phase as the racing season starts in March. All depends on when you want to be your best.

Im not an expert in any sense or a coach so take my words with a grain of salt. This is just from my own research recently and past experience.

Delboy007

Yea i think you are right i am going to deep now, time to take it back a bit, starting from tonight

Paul_Mc1988

Lumen wrote:

The maths behind these programs is very basic. Your anaerobic capacity (AWC) of 350-360W.min can be added to your threshold (~250W) and spread over however many minutes you choose, and after sufficient recovery you can repeat until you run out of muscle glycogen.

Lumen wrote:

Doing repeated hard efforts is a trainable thing.

Lumen wrote:

So you could do 10 x 5 mins of 320W in one session, with sufficient recovery between each one.

Lumen wrote:

That's the theory. In practice, totally nope.

Lumen wrote:

If you're planning on training steadily to peak in March (which is unusual, but that's apparently your plan) then you have 5 months of training ahead. You should be erring on the side of extreme caution. These initial workouts should feel easy. Otherwise you'll be burned out by Christmas.

Lumen wrote:

tldr: If you're struggling to complete sessions then just lower the intensity until you can, and whatever you do make sure you have sufficient rest and recovery.

I'm doing it for the fitness aspect not to race. Great advice though. Its only the efforts of 150% FTP that make me pop.

Completed todays workout without any issues which consisted of 15 90second efforts at 120% FTP (300watts) with a minute break in between. Ill adjust my FTP down for any future sessions that contain 150% by 10% so im able to complete that session and see how i get on .

sullzz

Does nobody train outdoors anymore

Lusk_Doyle

sullzz wrote: »

Does nobody train outdoors anymore

Why does that upset you?

dahat

sullzz wrote: »

Does nobody train outdoors anymore

Not in Winter but when the spring comes I'll start outdoor intervals and eventually bin the trainer bar the odd session from April/May on.

RobFowl

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Why does that upset you?

It upsets me and my sensibilities...

No excuse for not cycling out doors..........

Rule no 5

Macy0161

sullzz wrote: »

Does nobody train outdoors anymore

I can train indoors when I'm supposed to be in charge of the children!

CramCycle

I prefer cycling outdoors, not sure of the point if I am not enjoying it.

Lusk_Doyle

RobFowl wrote: »

It upsets me and my sensibilities...

No excuse for not cycling out doors..........

Rule no 5

Yes there is! I have two of them - aged 2 and 4!

RobFowl

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Yes there is! I have two of them - aged 2 and 4!

If you're on de turbo your're not minding kids

DirkVoodoo

I prefer cycling outdoors, like anyone.

But this thread has mostly been about highly structured training, intervals, FTP tests, etc. I find it very hard to complete these out on my local roads. Too many traffic lights and other things that can interrupt or distract from the task at hand.

Plus, how can I possibly use my Zwift outside??

tuxy

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Plus, how can I possibly use my Zwift outside??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gIQiDfUxIk

harringtonp

RobFowl wrote: »

If you're on de turbo your're not minding kids

You are daddy style

sullzz

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Why does that upset you?

I shouldve expected an answer like that .

sullzz

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I prefer cycling outdoors, like anyone.

But this thread has mostly been about highly structured training, intervals, FTP tests, etc. I find it very hard to complete these out on my local roads. Too many traffic lights and other things that can interrupt or distract from the task at hand.

Plus, how can I possibly use my Zwift outside??

I find an FTP test easier to do outside , stocking lane is ideal , but i agree unless you have access to the likes of stocking lane or similar an FTP test is hard to do without interuption .
Bit to do structured intervals or cadence work there are no reasons these cant get done outside .
I just cant stand the turbo , granted i dont use zwift .

Lusk_Doyle

sullzz wrote: »

I shouldve expected an answer like that .

Genuine question, like yours.

dahat

Race winners use turbo in winter 😂😂😂😂

Lusk_Doyle

RobFowl wrote: »

If you're on de turbo your're not minding kids

I never said minding them but often, the time left after minding them or putting them to bed results in a quick turbo session the only option.