FTP and cycle racing.

RobFowl

fcon wrote: »

Are there many here using the MAP, Ramp or Step test as an alternative to the 20min test?
What protocol are you using? 25watt increase per 150 seconds as in Shane Millar's youtube video? Or the British cycling's 20w/minute?
Has anyone done a subsequent 20min test at 82% map to validate the result?

You are racing A4 yeah?

fcon

Not any more ðŸ˜

fcon

Ah honestly I was enjoying reading this thread for the valuable insights into training and I'm interested to see what correlation exists between FTP and MAP and more so if it's reliable between different athletes. It's an area I've tried to do a bit of research on but there's not a whole lot of data out there. There is study's on v02 max but very little mention of power/watts at vo2

dahat

20min test on TrainerRoad completed today, not the perfect ftp test for me as i really struggle at times and went a little too hard on the 5 min interval before the 20min test.

The result was actually exactly the same as what I would have said mine was after a period of no structure and easing off after I completedy last A4 race.

The hard work starts now though....

Lumen

mossym wrote: »

now go ride a hill at that power level and see how long you can hold it for , and see if the times are the same. i bet they aren't...

I think the more interesting question is: once you've established that your power is higher riding the tops than it is riding the drops, and that you therefore have two FTP numbers, which position do you train in?

Does it benefit more to train with an open hip angle because more power is better stressing certain aerobic systems, or should you train as you intend to compete (specificity)?

I don't have an answer for that.

Lusk_Doyle

On Zwift, say when doing an FTP or interval session, on the left of the screen is the schedule of whats to come, watts x time. Under this there is an up and down arrow either side of 100%. Does this allow you to increase or decrease the difficulties of what is scheduled?

py

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

On Zwift, say when doing an FTP or interval session, on the left of the screen is the schedule of whats to come, watts x time. Under this there is an up and down arrow either side of 100%. Does this allow you to increase or decrease the difficulties of what is scheduled?

I believe so. Unsure if it's compete workout or section that it adjusts.

niceonetom

Lumen wrote: »

I think the more interesting question is: once you've established that your power is higher riding the tops than it is riding the drops, and that you therefore have two FTP numbers, which position do you train in?

Does it benefit more to train with an open hip angle because more power is better stressing certain aerobic systems, or should you train as you intend to compete (specificity)?

I don't have an answer for that.

I do, at least from my experience comparing power output on the hoods of my road bike vs my most aggressive aero position on the TT bike.

I was only when I got a PM that I realised I was losing about 50w due to the position - much more than I would have guessed based on PE and the times I was doing on the TT bike.

I got about 30 of those watts back by backing off the lunacy of position and by doing longer spins on the TT bike.

It's much much easier to find those watts via muscle recruitment than it is to create them by improving oxygen transport. Adding 30w to my FTP via intervals would have been nearly impossible and also deeply unpleasant. And all the VO2max in the world won't matter if it disappears when you have to get small.

I would say the same argument applies when comparing upright climbing vs deep in the drops on the road bike. If your glutes shut down whenever you bend your elbows you will not be fast.

TL;DR: Specificity FTW.

nilhg

niceonetom wrote: »

I do, at least from my experience comparing power output on the hoods of my road bike vs my most aggressive aero position on the TT bike.

I was only when I got a PM that I realised I was losing about 50w due to the position - much more than I would have guessed based on PE and the times I was doing on the TT bike.

I got about 30 of those watts back by backing off the lunacy of position and by doing longer spins on the TT bike.

It's much much easier to find those watts via muscle recruitment than it is to create them by improving oxygen transport. Adding 30w to my FTP via intervals would have been nearly impossible and also deeply unpleasant. And all the VO2max in the world won't matter if it disappears when you have to get small.

I would say the same argument applies when comparing upright climbing vs deep in the drops on the road bike. If your glutes shut down whenever you bend your elbows you will not be fast.

TL;DR: Specificity FTW.

How did the balance between power and position work out for you, did the 30 watts gained win you enough speed to compensate for the aero losses, or was the aero position just a bridge too far that gained you very little?

niceonetom

nilhg wrote: »

did the 30 watts gained win you enough speed to compensate for the aero losses

Hard to answer with total certainty without a wind-tunnel or at least a fair amount of Chung-method number crunching, but I'm reasonably certain that I was faster in the less aggressive position. My times were very similar despite quite a significant reduction in fitness from one season to the next.

The broader argument I'm making though is that a) FTP is specific to what you're doing - indoors vs outdoors, uphill vs flat land, road bike vs TT bike etc. And when training I'll adjust the wattage I'm aiming for to account for that. A watt is not a watt. Not in the real world.

And b) power has to be balanced against weight (obvs) and aero (less obvs) so it's worth trying to make sure your power isn't being frittered away due to position - sitting on the tops looking at big numbers on the Garmin might make for more impressive data, but speed means being able to hold those numbers when you're chewing the stem.

harringtonp

Lumen wrote: »

I think the more interesting question is: once you've established that your power is higher riding the tops than it is riding the drops, and that you therefore have two FTP numbers, which position do you train in?

Does it benefit more to train with an open hip angle because more power is better stressing certain aerobic systems, or should you train as you intend to compete (specificity)?

I don't have an answer for that.

The fact that pro TT specialists spend so much time training in the TT position suggests that specificity is more important

CramCycle

harringtonp wrote: »

The fact that pro TT specialists spend so much time training in the TT position suggests that specificity is more important

That would be my intuition as well, no point training in a different position if it is going to give you no gains in the position you will be riding. Not saying to train in said position all the time, but that it should be focused on coming upto specific events.

harringtonp

niceonetom wrote: »

The broader argument I'm making though is that a) FTP is specific to what you're doing - indoors vs outdoors, uphill vs flat land, road bike vs TT bike etc. And when training I'll adjust the wattage I'm aiming for to account for that. A watt is not a watt. Not in the real world.

This is so true. Anyone who has under their belt a catalogue of stage race 6-10 minute TTs with power meter and TT bike or bars will attest to how much lower the average power is to what they have put out on 6-10 minute climbs.

I haven't done a FTP test in years. For 30 second, 2 min or 3 min Z5-Z6 intervals I know exactly what power to hold so that I barely succeed or fail on the last interval. For SS work varying from 10 min intervals to 30-40 minutes straight the wattage window is reasonably wide and through previous sessions and heart rate monitoring I can pick a good training wattage easily enough. Determining a wattage to work at for threshold or slightly over threshold intervals is the most difficult part but again heart rate helps nail that down quickly (if you are too high it will just keep shooting up).

When I use to do regular 8 minute FTP tests (as outlined in the time crunched cyclist) I found I got very good at tweaking them to get high numbers (and look good) but training was then too severe. I could do a 20 minute test now but they are hard and I don't think it would change the wattage I do intervals at in any great way so why bother...

Paul_Mc1988

Anyone here who races on zwift and in A3/4 on the raod. Started racing to mix up the training iv been doing on trainerroad.

Its graded in letters so not sure how it compares.. skipped Cat E and went straight into Cat D. Won that race and am now in Cat C but down the lower end of the sprectrum. Looking to gauge how my fitness truly is?

Whyner

Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »

Anyone here who races on zwift and in A3/4 on the raod. Started racing to mix up the training iv been doing on trainerroad.

Its graded in letters so not sure how it compares.. skipped Cat E and went straight into Cat D. Won that race and am now in Cat C but down the lower end of the sprectrum. Looking to gauge how my fitness truly is?

What's your w/kg? That's how they filter the categories. There is no Cat E

CramCycle

Cat E is Everyone, as in there is no restriction, think they are typically just training rides and spins (never used Zwift, all explained to me at the roadside yesterday).

Whyner

CramCycle wrote: »

Cat E is Everyone, as in there is no restriction, think they are typically just training rides and spins (never used Zwift, all explained to me at the roadside yesterday).

He mentioned racing, there's no Cat E there, just for group workouts

CramCycle

Whyner wrote: »

He mentioned racing, there's no Cat E there, just for group workouts

I was just explaining where he got it, you don't so much skip E as either take part or don't take part in it (says the man who hasn't used it).

Whyner

CramCycle wrote: »

I was just explaining where he got it, you don't so much skip E as either take part or don't take part in it (says the man who hasn't used it).

I haven't raced in it either......but if one was to they need to check this first:

CHOOSING YOUR RIDER CATEGORY
Just like real-life racing, most Zwift races break riders up into categories based on fitness level. Different races use different categorization schemes, but most currently use this:

A: 4.0 w/kg FTP or higher
B: 3.2 w/kg to 4.0 w/kg FTP
C: 2.5 w/kg to 3.2 w/kg FTP
Under 2.5 w/kg FTP

So if you're putting out 5w/kg in a D race then there's a good chance you'll get a DQ

Paul_Mc1988

Lusk_Doyle wrote:

On Zwift, say when doing an FTP or interval session, on the left of the screen is the schedule of whats to come, watts x time. Under this there is an up and down arrow either side of 100%. Does this allow you to increase or decrease the difficulties of what is scheduled?

Sorry lads just seen Cat E as 0.0 w/kg and thought it was for complete beginners..

I didnt input an ftp but zwift assigned one for me after my first race at 205 which is miles down from the 250 i have in trainer road. That said everyone goes nuts at the start of a race and burns matches like crazy. I was at 8w/kg for the first stint. So your ftp is going to be skewed. As your trying to bring the HR down.

But back to my orriginal question!

Paul_Mc1988

Whyner wrote:

So if you're putting out 5w/kg in a D race then there's a good chance you'll get a DQ

You dont get disqualified. You just get bumped to the correct category at the end of the race which was what happened to me. So in the above scenario you end up in the Cat A results

Paul_Mc1988

Whyner wrote:

What's your w/kg? That's how they filter the categories. There is no Cat E

On trainer road 3.1w/kg. Yesterday in a 27.5km race i held 2.7w/kg on zwift.

Whyner

Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »

You dont get disqualified. You just get bumped to the correct category at the end of the race which was what happened to me. So in the above scenario you end up in the Cat A results

True, but only if there are other valid categories in the same race. Some races are 1 category only, e.g just D and if you're over 5 it's a DQ

What was the question again? :pac::pac:

Paul_Mc1988

Whyner wrote:

What was the question again?

Whyner wrote:

True, but only if there are other valid categories in the same race. Some races are 1 category only, e.g just D and if you're over 5 it's a DQ

Ah yeah never thought about that.

How does zwift categories hold up against real categories?

RobFowl

Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »

Ah yeah never thought about that.

How does zwift categories hold up against real categories?

Re Zwift and real cats

"this one is close, that one is far away..."

Lusk_Doyle

RobFowl wrote: »

Re Zwift and real cats

"this one is close, that one is far away..."

What do you know about indoor cycling?!?!

I find that cat B is full out effort for the entire race, which is not reflective of real racing. Having said that, I am not in great shape at present. A good workout nonetheless and good training.

RobFowl

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

What do you know about indoor cycling?!?!

Not as much as you

I do mine outside .....

Derrydingle

For a 20 min FTP test are you better of doing it on a hill climb or flat road ?

sullzz

Derrydingle wrote: »

For a 20 min FTP test are you better of doing it on a hill climb or flat road ?

There were conflicting opinions on this a few posts back , i tend to do mine on a hill as i find there is nowhere to hide , and the hill i do it is continious with no junctions so no need to stop , on a flat route there always tend to be slight dips or you can unintentionally let yourself recover for a few seconds where as on a hill you have to constantly put out full power to keep moving .

fondriest

Derrydingle wrote: »

For a 20 min FTP test are you better of doing it on a hill climb or flat road ?

There are no hill long enough in my area so my route is half flat / half hill . I think the main thing is use the same route , same warm up and same test and at least you're comparing like with like every time .