FTP and cycle racing.

dahat

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

90kg. Beat that.

100kgs....Beat you handy....

InTheAttic

niceonetom wrote: »

Backstedt may have been heavy, but in w/kg he was still an absolute beast. In terms of raw power he might be the biggest engine ever in the sport. He claims to be the heaviest man to have ever finished the Tour de France, which to me is very nearly as impressive as winning the thing.

If you're going to compare your weight to his, you should also compare your power, just for the sake of humility.

This is fairly bonkers. NP of nearly 400w for over 6.5 hours.

Not comparing my weight to his. Just throwing light on the fact that a successful racer doesn't have to be within the 60/70kg weight categories quoted in this thread. Would be interested to see how much power magnus would sacrifice if he were to drop his weight way down into the 80kg range back in the day.

Kaisr Sose

InTheAttic wrote: »

Not comparing my weight to his. Just throwing light on the fact that a successful racer doesn't have to be within the 60/70kg weight categories quoted in this thread. Would be interested to see how much power magnus would sacrifice if he were to drop his weight way down into the 80kg range back in the day.

That's a how long is a piece of string question. Plenty of research shows a loss of power with weigh loss (muscle mass) but I don't think it's straight line /one size fits all formula. Froome lost some power from his early days as a pro when he lost weight but his performance is measurably greater now. So it's not a simple matter of less power is diminished performance.

niceonetom

I've seen quite a few big dudes lose weight and get seriously fast. I've never seen a big dude get fast by just building his engine to compensate for his size. Adding watts is exponentially harder than subtracting kilos.

dahat

niceonetom wrote: »

I've seen quite a few big dudes lose weight and get seriously fast. I've never seen a big dude just build his engine to compensate for his size. Adding watts is exponentially harder than subtracting kilos.

By getting fitter etc most people will lose kgs by default really but I think there is a fine point between losing too many kgs n losing power for bigger lads like myself. I can't see myself ever getting down to 85kgs but 90-92 kgs is definitely doable but not at the expense of feeling weaker on the bike.

niceonetom

IMO fear of losing power from weight loss is generally unfounded unless you're trying to too big a kcal deficit or are already below 8 or 10 percent bodyfat, which virtually no one over 80kg is.

dahat

niceonetom wrote: »

IMO fear of losing power from weight loss is generally unfounded unless you're trying to too big a kcal deficit or are already below 8 or 10 percent bodyfat, which virtually no one over 80kg is.

In simple terms them it's less weight less bulk to haul up the road.

I'm hoping to "cycle" off a few more kgs but I'm not going to kill myself with a big calorie deficit as I failed on that before when running.

Harrybelafonte

niceonetom wrote: »

I've seen quite a few big dudes lose weight and get seriously fast. I've never seen a big dude get fast by just building his engine to compensate for his size. Adding watts is exponentially harder than subtracting kilos.

I have to agree with this. I think I've said this before, but I've been off the bike awhile now. Just before I was injured I was at 82kg, the lightest I've been for maybe 20 years, this was done mostly via gym work, diet, running and swimming, very little cycling. I kept all the power I had from the season before, maybe had more, and could climb properly for the first time.

I'm 6'1" btw and am slowly reducing weight. I'm not sure how far down I'll get as I've a lot more upper body strength this year (I had none), but I'll be judging it more on bodyfat, the less functional weight I carry the better. It's ok tp be big on the bike,it just depends on what that big is made of

Sarz91

Did a few A4 races last year before heading to NZ. I was down at about 70kg with an FTP of 314 watts. Came third in the first race of the season and then couldn't place to save my life. Poor positioning at Stamullen meant I was at the back of the group the first time up Snowtown. Put the hammer down on the climb and made up a few dozen positions pretty easy. Crested the hill only to realise that the break had already been made. Looked at the strava ride after and it showed I was a good 6 seconds faster than the lead guy in the break up the first pass of Snowtown.

I'm down to about 67kg at the moment and FTP is at 290 Watts. I'm hoping, with a bit of luck, I might get an upgrade this year.

InTheAttic

Sarz91 wrote: »

Did a few A4 races last year before heading to NZ. I was down at about 70kg with an FTP of 314 watts. Came third in the first race of the season and then couldn't place to save my life. Poor positioning at Stamullen meant I was at the back of the group the first time up Snowtown. Put the hammer down on the climb and made up a few dozen positions pretty easy. Crested the hill only to realise that the break had already been made. Looked at the strava ride after and it showed I was a good 6 seconds faster than the lead guy in the break up the first pass of Snowtown.

I'm down to about 67kg at the moment and FTP is at 290 Watts. I'm hoping, with a bit of luck, I might get an upgrade this year.

That's a really good number. Why couldn't you place in other races? Judging by your numbers, you'd be savage on the hills, but flat races wouldn't be an issue either?

JK.BMC

InTheAttic wrote: »

Not comparing my weight to his. Just throwing light on the fact that a successful racer doesn't have to be within the 60/70kg weight categories quoted in this thread. Would be interested to see how much power magnus would sacrifice if he were to drop his weight way down into the 80kg range back in the day.

Cancellara regularly raced st 81-82 kg in the Classics. Hushovd was something similar and I think they dropped a bit of weight for the Tour each year but not much. It's all about the ratio

happyhappy

Sarz91 wrote: »

Did a few A4 races last year before heading to NZ. I was down at about 70kg with an FTP of 314 watts. Came third in the first race of the season and then couldn't place to save my life. Poor positioning at Stamullen meant I was at the back of the group the first time up Snowtown. Put the hammer down on the climb and made up a few dozen positions pretty easy. Crested the hill only to realise that the break had already been made. Looked at the strava ride after and it showed I was a good 6 seconds faster than the lead guy in the break up the first pass of Snowtown.

I'm down to about 67kg at the moment and FTP is at 290 Watts. I'm hoping, with a bit of luck, I might get an upgrade this year.

I still get the sweats thinking about that first pass of snowtown. Lost the break as it crested the hill and couldn't bridge the 100 metre gap coming down the far side. Race over inside the first 6k!

InTheAttic

happyhappy wrote: »

I still get the sweats thinking about that first pass of snowtown. Lost the break as it crested the hill and couldn't bridge the 100 metre gap coming down the far side. Race over inside the first 6k!

I actually did that climb a few weeks ago for the first time. Nasty little b1tch it is. Just when you think you're done sawing your nuts off, bang it ramps up again. Did it with a few A2 fellas and ... well.. I could see why they were A2! You weren't the only one to get dropped. The fella who won the stamullen A4 last year (solo finish) is now in A1, so don't be lamenting that race!

Sarz91

InTheAttic wrote: »

That's a really good number. Why couldn't you place in other races? Judging by your numbers, you'd be savage on the hills, but flat races wouldn't be an issue either?

Poor positioning mostly. That and I ended up puncturing in 2 separate races which ended that. I only did a handful before heading to NZ. Actually, come to think of it I only ended up doing 5 open races.

With regards to the A4 winner of Stamullen last year, he rode away on the last pass of Snowtown and that was that. There was a group of maybe 14 or so behind him and I led in the group behind them. We caught a load of people before the finish and a lot of people from our group were saying we'd caught everyone. Que the mass sprint. I pipped some guy on the line, thinking I'd won I was pretty delighted but too tired to celebrate. Just as well. 50m up the road was the winner and the original break. Could have been pretty embarrassing.

Taxuser1

fitness a sprint and cuteness for lower graded racing imo, all the way to A2. I won't win any tts with my ftp but using the head and saving matches for one or two decent efforts picks you up points

Ftp is handy for training parameters. So is heart zones though

dahat

Taxuser1 wrote: »

fitness a sprint and cuteness for lower graded racing imo, all the way to A2. I won't win any tts with my ftp but using the head and saving matches for one or two decent efforts picks you up points

Ftp is handy for training parameters. So is heart zones though

Agree with this as I don't see how I'm going to get time to look at watts racing but a very useful training tool.

InTheAttic

dahat wrote: »

Agree with this as I don't see how I'm going to get time to look at watts racing but a very useful training tool.

I won't even be displaying it on the Garmin. In fact, the Garmin will be in the jersey pocket.

Harrybelafonte

InTheAttic wrote: »

I won't even be displaying it on the Garmin. In fact, the Garmin will be in the jersey pocket.

I'd have it on the bars with just time and distance showing. Helps you remember how far away that spot is you picked on the first lap to start your break on the last lap

InTheAttic

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I'd have it on the bars with just time and distance showing. Helps you remember how far away that spot is you picked on the first lap to start your break on the last lap

I'll just wait for you to jump

Harrybelafonte

InTheAttic wrote: »

I'll just wait for you to jump

Ah now, I'm a bit like a steam train. Everyone's onboard before I leave the station.

Inquitus

crazy_kenny wrote: »

This year I started with a 12 week plan on TrainerRoad for aerobic fitness. In January I added higher intensity rides and race specific efforts. I also did some gym work like squats, walking lunges, back extension and Swiss ball workouts. My FTP on the turbo trainer is 3.5w/kg at 63kg.

3.5W/Kg is a decent number but Irish racing generally wouldn't give a fair shake to 3.5W/Kg at 63kgs simply as we don't have enough hills, or any hilltop finishes of note. You will always end up sprinting at the end on the flat or a short hill against bigger lads with much higher FTP that really lends itself to an Irish sprint. I wish you all the best in your season, defo focus on the hilly races.

Lumen

On the flat aerodynamics is really important. I think a small rider with an excellent position can hold position at the front of a group with not much more than 250W. I have an abysmal position and need about 320W at the front.

Obviously the objective is only to be at the front for the split second you cross the finish line, but 3.5x63=220W and IMO that's simply not enough base aerobic capacity to recover in the cut and thrust of racing unless you have superhuman ability to defend a position and an unbelievable sprint.

InTheAttic

Lumen wrote: »

On the flat aerodynamics is really important. I think a small rider with an excellent position can hold position at the front of a group with not much more than 250W. I have an abysmal position and need about 320W at the front.

But that doesnt make any sense because a smaller rider will be feeling 250W, just as much as a heavier rider would feel 320W, and also at the front you don't have a wheel to sit on. Smaller riders have the advantage IMO in that they don't have much of a slipstream for the bigger guys to sit in, your chin will nearly be resting on the stem. While conversely, a bigger rider creates a bigger slipstream.

Lumen

InTheAttic wrote: »

But that doesnt make any sense because a smaller rider will be feeling 250W, just as much as a heavier rider would feel 320W

I think you're agreeing with me.

crazy_kenny

Lumen wrote: »

On the flat aerodynamics is really important. I think a small rider with an excellent position can hold position at the front of a group with not much more than 250W. I have an abysmal position and need about 320W at the front.

Obviously the objective is only to be at the front for the split second you cross the finish line, but 3.5x63=220W and IMO that's simply not enough base aerobic capacity to recover in the cut and thrust of racing unless you have superhuman ability to defend a position and an unbelievable sprint.

The 3.5w/kg is based on workouts on the turbo trainer. On the road I'll be a bit higher. Recently on a spin I manages10 minutes at 249W, 5 minutes at 273W but my sprint is not great at 474W for 30 seconds. I'm currently doing intervals to increase my 1 minute, 5 minute and sprint power numbers.

Sarz91

crazy_kenny wrote: »

The 3.5w/kg is based on workouts on the turbo trainer. On the road I'll be a bit higher. Recently on a spin I manages10 minutes at 249W, 5 minutes at 273W but my sprint is not great at 474W for 30 seconds. I'm currently doing intervals to increase my 1 minute, 5 minute and sprint power numbers.

I know from last year that some surges coming out of corners in A4 had me at about 700-750 watts for 5-7 seconds. Not a long time or a huge number but you may struggle a little bit.

InTheAttic

Lumen wrote: »

I think you're agreeing with me.

Nope. Actually re-reading your post, it makes even less sense What did you mean by it?

crazy_kenny

Sarz91 wrote: »

I know from last year that some surges coming out of corners in A4 had me at about 700-750 watts for 5-7 seconds. Not a long time or a huge number but you may struggle a little bit.

Not too worried about that. Never got dropped on corners last year and managed 760w for 5 seconds on trainer 2 weeks ago.

Lumen

InTheAttic wrote: »

Nope. Actually re-reading your post, it makes even less sense What did you mean by it?

I mean that a lighter rider is generally shorter and thinner, so less wattage is required to maintain position in a group on the flat provided that they have good position.

Daroxtar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CNBDBeo0iI