FTP and cycle racing.

Irish Raven

Raymzor wrote:

I think you need to get racing to find out. Pick races that suit you. I think you’ll find it fine which will build you up. I was in the same boat as you at the start of 2017 and found my first few races manageable despite having the same apprehensions-I got injured in April. I’m sure you have trained a bit more to deal with slight step up. If you skip too many races at the start of the year others may have progressed ahead of you so don’t wait too long to get started!

2nd line...imo ignore...do all races...all types, if you consistently do flat races, you as a rider are not improving...By getting whooped on hills and going back for more, by finding splits and similiar style riders in the races, watch them, how they race every week... thats the way you will improve and progress in a3. The gap is enormous between riders....and the ones that are solid, are the ones who race all kinds of races.

Go in eager to learn, with no expectation, only to enjoy and improve....

And dont mention your watts per kg to anyone....no one really cares.... :-)

Irish Raven

Oh and best of luck....kick ass....and keep it lit!!

Raymzor

Irish Raven wrote: »

2nd line...imo ignore...do all races...all types, if you consistently do flat races, you as a rider are not improving...By getting whooped on hills and going back for more, by finding splits and similiar style riders in the races, watch them, how they race every week... thats the way you will improve and progress in a3. The gap is enormous between riders....and the ones that are solid, are the ones who race all kinds of races.

Go in eager to learn, with no expectation, only to enjoy and improve....

And dont mention your watts per kg to anyone....no one really cares.... :-)

Where do you race as a matter of interest? Obviously racing is only about winning for you.....

Irish Raven

Raymzor wrote:

Where do you race as a matter of interest? Obviously racing is only about winning for you.....

i presume that's sarcasm..... :-)

Not sure where you would pull that out of, from my r
post!!

Munster based but race Leinster also!!

Cen fath?

Raymzor

Irish Raven wrote: »

i presume that's sarcasm..... :-)

Not sure where you would pull that out of, from my r
post!!

Munster based but race Leinster also!!

Cen fath?

My main point is to START where you have a good chance of survival-then build from there.

i know of some A2s who avoid hilly races like Stamullen as it previously dented early season confidence.

Irish Raven

Raymzor wrote:

My main point is to START where you have a good chance of survival-then build from there.

Raymzor wrote:

i know of some A2s who avoid hilly races like Stamullen as it previously dented early season confidence.

And my point was to tackle where you feel your weak....to IMPROVE....and race...all types of races...obviously ones that suit, and ones that dont!!

big prob with a2 especially in munster is that the majority of Munster races are a1/a2 and if its hilly and combined...for a2s(i know i am one) it can be over within a few km's, as soon as the road goes up!!

The gap from a3 to a2 is alot closer than a2 to a1....a4 to a3, the big difference is the distance....huge difference between a 60km race and a 100km....a 95min race to a 160min race....

Delboy007

Hi
Not sure what is going on with my FTP, am I doing something wrong or am I just given up to easily, I am using trainerroad and doing the Low volume 28 week plans and am on week 6 of the general build. I am 88Kg

I done my 1^st FTP test (20 min Test) on 11/10/2017 and got a FTP of 256. After some of the workouts, some playing around and advice from here I reduced my FTP to 236 as I was not able to complete the workouts.
Then on the 01-01-18 done another FTP test and got a FTP of 256 again, again was not able to complete the workouts so brought the FTP down to 243.

Then on the 29-01-18 done another FTP test and yet again I got a FTP of 256. Have done another 3 workouts at 256 and had to reduce the workouts buy like 5% after the 1^st set of internals.

So thinking of bring down my FTP to 250.

Has this happened to anyone, would this be sort of normal, am I wasting my time putting in all this work and not able to do the workouts at my 1^st FTP result of 256. I am sort of losing motivation.

So I am really increasing my FTP by 3% every 1 to 2 Mts or so, is this a good increase or should it be rising quicker?

Sorry for all the questions.

Chumpski

Not for me. I did the 20 minute FTP test workout a few times now and have got accurate results. One scheduled tonight as it happens.

If you are going up by 3% each time, that is pretty good so i would not worry that you are not improving, you are. Its really hard to say is 3% good or bad. I would not focus on how much its going up. Its different for every person. If its going up, that is great. You are not wasting your time.

Its an odd one. Are you well rested before the test and fatigued for your workouts?

Changing it manually based on perceived effort is ok to do.

EDIT: This question comes up alot on the trainerroad podcasts. Have a listen of them for more info from better sources that me! Im just repeating more or less what those guys say.

joey100

How did the 5 min clearing effort compare across the tests?

Macy0161

Test due for me today too - going Ramp Test on TrainerRoad.

I did the workout "Lamarck" a couple of weeks ago as SSB 2, and the workout text said you could use your average of the four intervals as FTP if you overshot (which I did). Wasn't a massive bump, but a few watts up, without the dramas I've had in the recent 20 minute tests (where I've been static the last few times). Maybe it helped the head, which helped the legs! Maybe you could sub that workout in?

Delboy007

joey100 wrote: »

How did the 5 min clearing effort compare across the tests?

My 1st FTP test

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6620863-20-minute-ftp-test

My last one

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10950531-20-minute-ftp-test

Any insite would be great.

dahat

Delboy007 wrote: »

My 1st FTP test

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6620863-20-minute-ftp-test

My last one

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10950531-20-minute-ftp-test

Any insite would be great.

The second test looks a better 20min effort, pacing is way better. Same ftp off both but i terms of progression I'd prefer the second test.

Chumpski

So both look like good honest efforts. The second one looks better paced overall. I would say, yeah you should be able to do the workouts scaled by those FTP efforts.

Which workouts are you having trouble with? Are they sweet spot, threshold, over under, VO2?

Is it on the first interval you struggle or on subsequent ones?

Are you tired from other training you are doing or stressed out in other areas of your life?

Whats your room like? Enough cooling, window open, fan?

dahat

Sometimes I struggle at the VO2 intervals when they touch 120% but if needed I reduce the intensity to 96% as repeatable power is what's needed. As above there usually is some external factor that effects these intervals that I need to reduce slightly.
You should be able to hold threshold and Sweet Spot comfortably tbh if your ftp is correct.

crazy_kenny

Delboy007 wrote: »

My 1st FTP test

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6620863-20-minute-ftp-test

My last one

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10950531-20-minute-ftp-test

Any insite would be great.

I had an issue like this when I started with TrainerRoad. What worked for me was dropping my cadence to around 90rpm for the tests and intervals. My cadence was too fast and my heart rate was elevated too early in intervals.

I still do high cadence for efforts below 5 minutes but anything above that it’s around 90rpm.

Crocked

crazy_kenny wrote: »

I had an issue like this when I started with TrainerRoad. What worked for me was dropping my cadence to around 90rpm for the tests and intervals. My cadence was too fast and my heart rate was elevated too early in intervals.

I still do high cadence for efforts below 5 minutes but anything above that it’s around 90rpm.

I'd been trying out a higher cadence during some workouts over the winter and while I can definitely hold a higher cadence now, I also found that it killed me on FTP tests.

Previously I'd hit between 88-92 during tests, but in the last two FTP tests in my wisdom I thought I'd use my new found spinning to save the legs. Result was I was getting gassed too early. While I finished them out I hit a lower number than my workouts would have suggested I'd manage

Going to go back to not looking at cadence during tests and just ride to feel. Although maybe I'm using the higher test cadence as an excuse for my terrible cycling abilities

Macy0161

Macy0161 wrote: »

Test due for me today too - going Ramp Test on TrainerRoad.

Well that went crap - as was said on another thread, not sure it really works on a dumb trainer. Struggled with gearing, over shot earlier steps, and then was cooked when it got hard. Sticking with the estimate from Lamarck a couple of weeks ago, and see how I get on.

joey100

I'm going to say your first test looks better than your second. Pacing on 2nd one is better but you really went for the 5 min effort on the first one, second one the 5 min effort and the 20min are too close together. It should be around 10% difference in power output, I know trainer road uses a 5min recovery rather than a 10 min in other protocols but your 20 min effort was nearly the same as your 5 min, closer to 5% difference rather than the 10%.

It looks like you nearly paced the 20 min too well, looks like you were constantly building and I'd guess there was more left at the end.

How many hours is the low volume plan you are following a week and what sort of sessions would you be struggling to hold the target power on? All sessions or is it VO2 max or tempo efforts?

Sinbad_NI

Macy0161 wrote:

Well that went crap - as was said on another thread, not sure it really works on a dumb trainer. Struggled with gearing, over shot earlier steps, and then was cooked when it got hard. Sticking with the estimate from Lamarck a couple of weeks ago, and see how I get on.

I did the ramp test on a dumb trainer, had to be careful to hit the right numbers and not overshoot, but I have to say I think it worked well as my FTP from the test was bang on where I thought it should be.

transylman

Delboy007 wrote: »

My 1st FTP test

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6620863-20-minute-ftp-test

My last one

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10950531-20-minute-ftp-test

Any insite would be great.

I might have the same issue as you. My FTP setting lets me do sweet spot sessions with little discomfort but when I try to do VO2 max sessions I constantly need to bail out early. A lot of it is mental but it is probably something that also needs to be trained in.

Chumpski

The VO2 intervals are bollix hard, honestly you just have to dig in and get through them. Get a good breathing rhythm going and get stuck in. It will soon be over (only to start again soon ).

The microburst workouts are something else (8 minutes of 15 seconds on and off at 150% FTP). On another level altogether. Ive never experienced such pain in a long time. They feel like you are hanging onto the last wheel in a criterium for dear, dear life.

Macy0161

Sinbad_NI wrote:

I did the ramp test on a dumb trainer, had to be careful to hit the right numbers and not overshoot, but I have to say I think it worked well as my FTP from the test was bang on where I thought it should be.

I think it's just a mental thing at this stage. Did a vo2 max workout today and was even overshooting the targets based on my old ftp, rather than the ramp test. 4 weeks to get my head around it I guess!

Delboy007

• Which workouts having trouble with and is it on the first interval you struggle or on subsequent ones and How many hours is the low volume plan you are following a week

• The VO2 one I am having trouble with, I can do the 1st interval set most time but the last one in the set kills me, then I drop it down the intensity by 5% on the 2nd interval set and again drop it by another 5% in the 3rd and in the last two I usual have to bring my cadence down to like 80 rpm (girding it out) to get through or even not do the last 2. I try and keep my cadence between 90 and 95 RPM and then 80 to 85 RPM in the rest periods. But on the VO2 ones that have microbursts in them and they are not above 140% I can do them (like Ansel Adams)
• I can do the over/under and sweet spot ones no problems.
• The threshold one I am ok with, if it is 3 sets I start to struggle in the last ¼ in the 2nd set, take a 20 sec back peddle and can do the rest, the last set reduce the intensity by 3 to 5% to get thought it, if more than 3 sets it is the last two I have the trouble.
• I am doing between 2 to 3 of the seasons a week, so 2 ½ hrs to 3 ½ hrs a week.

2. Are you tired from other training you are doing or stressed out in other areas of your life

I cycle in and out of work which is 20km a day go thought phoenix park so usually boom though there in the way to work and home from work. I have a 9 mt old kid who does not like to sleep through the night, but I try and get my workouts done when I am not up with her the night before. I have to say I was well rested for the FTP test but not always 100% for my workouts

3. Whats your room like?

I do it out in a wee wooden shed with the door open (no way air tight), so over the last while there is no way I am over heating, could the cold effect my efforts?

4. When doing the FTP test should my 5 min effort make a difference to my results, I thought it was just took off the 20 min effort?

@transylman have you increased your FTP from the 1^st time you done one till now, the main pain in my head is I have not increased the FTP and I can not do the workout at that FTP

Delboy007

Hi all thanks for coming back to me on this, only getting back now as work has been mad the last few days.

Which workouts having trouble with and is it on the first interval you struggle or on subsequent ones and How many hours is the low volume plan you are following a week

The VO2 one I am having trouble with, I can do the 1^st interval set most time but the last one in the set kills me, then I drop it down the intensity by 5% on the 2^nd interval set and again drop it by another 5% in the 3^rd and in the last two I usual have to bring my cadence down to like 80 rpm (girding it out) to get through or even not do the last 2.I try and keep my cadence between 90 and 95 RPM and then 80 to 85 RPM in the rest periods.

But on the VO2 ones that have microbursts in them and they are not above 140% I can do them (like Ansel Adams)

I can do the over/under and sweet spot ones no problems.

The threshold one I am ok with, if it is 3 sets I start to struggle in the last ¼ in the 2^nd set, take a 20 sec back peddle and can do the rest, the last set reduce the intensity by 3 to 5% to get thought it, if more than 3 sets it is the last two I have the trouble.

I am doing between 2 to 3 of the seasons a week, so 2 ½ hrs to 3 ½ hrs a week.

Are you tired from other training you are doing or stressed out in other areas of your life

I cycle in and out of work which is 20km a day go thought phoenix park so usually boom though there in the way to work and home from work. I have a 9 mt old kid who does not like to sleep through the night, but I try and get my workouts done when I am not up with her the night before. I have to say I was well rested for the FTP test but not always 100% for my workouts

Whats your room like?

I do it out in a wee wooden shed with the door open (no way air tight), so over the last while there is no way I am over heating, could the cold effect my efforts?

When doing the FTP test should my 5 min effort make a difference to my results, I thought it was just took off the 20 min effort?

@transylman have you increased your FTP from the 1^st time you done one till now, the main pain in my head is I have not increased the FTP and I can not do the workout at that FTP

Chumpski

Sounds like your FTP is right to me, if you can do all the workouts apart from some workouts targeting VO2 Max.

The VO2 Max ones are not easy by design. Everyone goes though pain in those. Depending on how you are feeling, you might want (maybe even need) to skip an interval or reduce the intensity.

transylman

Delboy007 wrote: »

@transylman have you increased your FTP from the 1^st time you done one till now, the main pain in my head is I have not increased the FTP and I can not do the workout at that FTP

I did the sweet spot base high volume plan, which is almost entirely sweet spot sessions. This suits me as I am focused on TTs so more interested in steady power. I had added 20W to my FTP over the 12 weeks using this. I had tried going on to the high volume sustained power build plan but the VO2 max sessions were beyond me so I aborted after a week and a half and went back to sweet spot sessions. I am leaving VO2 until race season starts. Hopefully the training effect from racing will carry over and I will actually be able to follow the sustained power plan then.

DirkVoodoo

Delboy007 wrote: »

My 1st FTP test

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6620863-20-minute-ftp-test

My last one

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10950531-20-minute-ftp-test

Any insite would be great.

As others have said, your tests look very erratic. My last one (variance +/- 15W):



I know mine was ball park correct because all my sessions feel exactly as they should do.

Unfortunately, I don't know exactly what that means without seeing you do the test, but for me, it would definitely mean I am not doing it near my actual cp20 if I had all those micro surges. Are you possibly not going flat out in the 5 min test?

Delboy007

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Delboy007 wrote: »

My 1st FTP test

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/6620863-20-minute-ftp-test

My last one

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10950531-20-minute-ftp-test

Any insite would be great.

As others have said, your tests look very erratic. My last one (variance +/- 15W):



I know mine was ball park correct because all my sessions feel exactly as they should do.

Unfortunately, I don't know exactly what that means without seeing you do the test, but for me, it would definitely mean I am not doing it near my actual cp20 if I had all those micro surges. Are you possibly not going flat out in the 5 min test?

How the hell did you keep it so smooth, if you don't mind what is your FTP, do you tell yourself what you are going to keep your power at and Cadence and keep it at that?
Oh I took it that the 5 min test was just like the warm up and I was using it like that, I was not going full gas for it, so next time is it better I do?

DirkVoodoo

Delboy007 wrote: »

How the hell did you keep it so smooth, if you don't mind what is your FTP, do you tell yourself what you are going to keep your power at and Cadence and keep it at that?
Oh I took it that the 5 min test was just like the warm up and I was using it like that, I was not going full gas for it, so next time is it better I do?

My numbers are pretty low at the moment, I'm just coming back from an extended lay-off (well, I'm about 6 months in now, but it's taking a while to get things going).

I was pretty gassed by the end of it, and I had the usual "I can't do this!" after 3 minutes.

This was done on the wattbike, I had an idea of the number I needed to hit from a previous test. So my strategy is:

Start off a little on the conservative side, maybe 5-10W below what I think I will average. When I get to 10 minutes, ramp it up if I can to the target number. Last 5 minutes, empty the tank. I just focus on keeping my legs spinning at 100rpm after that.

And yes, the 5 min effort is an all out max 5 minutes, yours definitely looks very low. I've looked at historical 5 min bests and aimed for close to that. It's horrific.

Macy0161

Delboy007 wrote:

Oh I took it that the 5 min test was just like the warm up and I was using it like that, I was not going full gas for it, so next time is it better I do?

As mentioned, I'm struggling with the tests, but the 5 minutes is a clearing effort rather than a warm up. iirc the workout text even tells you to Sprint for the end of the 5 minute effort.