FTP and cycle racing.

dahat

sullzz wrote: »

Moynaly has a few sharp kicks in it , be careful on the finish , its a downhill sprint with speed ramps on it .
Shannonside is a good course , im hoping to get my upgrade there if not in mullingar the week before .

Shannonside has a different course this year but same sort of course according to Facebook page.

A downhill sprint with speed ramp? Sounds like a body breaker!

sullzz

dahat wrote: »

Shannonside has a different course this year but same sort of course according to Facebook page.

A downhill sprint with speed ramp? Sounds like a body breaker!

Aye , a few broken bodies when i did it 2 years ago.

Must have a look at their FB page , disappointed with that now .. was a nice course .

Macy0161

Just a quick follow up, was Sundays pace/ overall time ball park for most A4 races or fast/slow? I managed to get a bar into me, but definitely carried too much for 2ish hour effort.

And now I have a power meter, is people's outside FTP generally higher than inside? My TrainerRoad FTP via the ramp test with the power meter had me above threshold for 40 plus minutes on Sunday. I thought it was just a poor test, but notwithstanding the heat last night and not exactly fresh legs after Sunday, I got the exact same result from a ramp test last night. Should I be looking at doing an outdoor test, or even using xert in a club race (which are generally threshold efforts) to establish an outdoor one?

Chumpski

Macy0161 wrote: »

And now I have a power meter, is people's outside FTP generally higher than inside? My TrainerRoad FTP via the ramp test with the power meter had me above threshold for 40 plus minutes on Sunday. I thought it was just a poor test, but notwithstanding the heat last night and not exactly fresh legs after Sunday, I got the exact same result from a ramp test last night. Should I be looking at doing an outdoor test, or even using xert in a club race (which are generally threshold efforts) to establish an outdoor one?

My FTP is the exact same outdoor/indoor. I did a long climb a few weeks back outdoors at race pace and got the same value in a ramp test recently. I've never seen a difference personally between outdoor/indoor, but i know some people say they do.

40 minutes above your threshold sounds a little high for a 2 hour race, but not crazy, maybe your fitness is a little under where it needs to be, doing such spins/races will raise it fairly quickly at the same time. Depends also what you were doing in the race, out front in a break, sounds about right, sitting in bunch, maybe a little high.

dahat

Your ftp is relevant to where you do your training really. I've done an ftp outdoors which came in 20 watts above the indoor test but I've normally just used the indoor value as that's where I'll do most of my specific training during Autumn-Spring.
League races, faster club spins etc normally take care of specific work during late spring early summer.

My last A4 race i spent just 24mins above threshold and that was a bunch sprint, Lucan GP. Saving your power for when you need sounds easy but ultimately its the hardest thing for a cyclist to craft imo.

Macy0161

Chumpski wrote: »

40 minutes above your threshold sounds a little high for a 2 hour race, but not crazy, maybe your fitness is a little under where it needs to be, doing such spins/races will raise it fairly quickly at the same time. Depends also what you were doing in the race, out front in a break, sounds about right, sitting in bunch, maybe a little high.

No doubt fitness could do with being a bit higher - the real power versus the muin was a bit of an eye opener to be honest! Might not have made the step if I'd got it earlier! I was mainly in the bunch, but did have a brief go, but didn't really go any where.

harringtonp

I train with power but haven't done a FTP in years but know my target averages for different interval lengths on both turbo and road

Indoor/outdoor difference in figures depends a lot on the turbo, it is usually less noticeable on direct drive turbos with large flywheels and even less so on those which allow some lateral bike movement.

And less so when using the turbo outdoors on a cold winter night than in current heatwave conditions.

Chumpski

harringtonp wrote: »

I train with power but haven't done a FTP in years but know my target averages for different interval lengths on both turbo and road

Indoor/outdoor difference in figures depends a lot on the turbo, it is usually less noticeable on direct drive turbos with large flywheels and even less so on those which allow some lateral bike movement.

And less so when using the turbo outdoors on a cold winter night than in current heatwave conditions.

Good point. Maybe that’s why I see no difference, I’m using the Tacx Neo indoors which allows a little side to side movement and has a flywheel.

CramCycle

If your FTP is varying between inside and outside, it is most likely due to issues with measurement, form on the day or another variable you cannot control. Either that or you have had an improvement/disimprovement since the other measurement. It should in theory be the same all other things considered.

Mental state is another one to consider, my FTP appears higher on the road, but more to do with my willingness to dig deeper on the road, rather than being actually higher. Therefore most inside readings, are inaccurate for me when left to my own devices.

Currently at 3W/kg

harringtonp

CramCycle wrote: »

If your FTP is varying between inside and outside, it is most likely due to issues with measurement, form on the day or another variable you cannot control. Either that or you have had an improvement/disimprovement since the other measurement. It should in theory be the same all other things considered.

Mental state is another one to consider, my FTP appears higher on the road, but more to do with my willingness to dig deeper on the road, rather than being actually higher. Therefore most inside readings, are inaccurate for me when left to my own devices.

Currently at 3W/kg

No its not, its real. Its well established and fairly well researched, there are papers out there on the reasons why.

As an example when doing 3 minute intervals on the road, I sometimes cheat to hit my target average by getting out of the saddle. You put out a lot more watts that way for the same effort though you probably won't go any faster. Same if you are training in the TT position and looking at watts you need to readjust your FTP

CramCycle

harringtonp wrote: »

No its not, its real. Its well established and fairly well researched, there are papers out there on the reasons why.

As an example when doing 3 minute intervals on the road, I sometimes cheat to hit my target average by getting out of the saddle. You put out a lot more watts that way for the same effort though you probably won't go any faster. Same if you are training in the TT position and looking at watts you need to readjust your FTP

But surely that what I said, your not comparing like with like.

Chumpski

It could also be your trainer not matching up with the same watts your outdoor power meter does.

You can configure your smart trainers resistance in trainerroad to be controlled by what your power meter reports using a feature called powermatch.

Macy0161

Chumpski wrote:

It could also be your trainer not matching up with the same watts your outdoor power meter does.

Just to be clear, for me it's the same power meter on the same bike. Just either on road or direct drive turbo. I think I'm coming down, for me, on it being cooling and willing to go deeper in a race.

Chips Lovell

I'm assuming its something to do with heat. I can't put out the same power for the same HR on the turbo as on the road, but the difference between the two is much lower if I use the trainer outdoors.

CramCycle

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

I'm assuming its something to do with heat. I can't put out the same power for the same HR on the turbo as on the road, but the difference between the two is much lower if I use the trainer outdoors.

Same here, one of the labs I used to do testing in had no air con or even air flow and my results were noticeably down in those scenarios.

nordicb

Same bike, same power meter, different power output between inside and outside - quite a bit more outside.
Personally it is not sensational really, similar experience in other sports. I think it has a lot to do with the heat management and mind distraction.

Macy0161

Well turned on my garmin with xert app on the spin home last night from a skills session, which included the Long Hill. Wasn't going as all in as I might with test, but had to push on a bit due to fading light and being much later than planned. The app gave me 30 watts higher than the ramp test. Haven't really been following how the xert app has been stacking up, as I haven't used it since it first came out - at the time, for a winter indoors 20 minute test it was within a watt of TrainerRoad, but obviously that was for a test rather than just left run on an outside bike.

Got home to find my collection of fans for the turbo had been commandeered for the bedrooms, which isn't going to help!

Macy0161

Anyone know where the online entry for the Moynalty A4 race might be (I have emailed them, but no response, yet)? Or is the all A4 races being pre-reg only rule as rigourously enforced as a salbutamol doping limit?

Macy0161

Miklos wrote:

If I drove myself to the race I'd always have the keys in the back pocket. The other option is to stick it under the wheelarch or something but that's not particularly secure.

It turns out car key in back pocket + a crash, gives you a hole in your back that needs 6 stitches...

sullzz

Macy0161 wrote: »

It turns out car key in back pocket + a crash, gives you a hole in your back that needs 6 stitches...

Ah so that was you ?
Wouldve been nicer to meet you under better circumstances.
I was the lucan lad , turns out i got a broken collarbone and have to see plastic surgeon tomorrow for my fingers .
With a bit of luck ill be back for the Serc gp.

Macy0161

Yeah, definitely would've preferred better circumstances. Best of luck with the recovery!

After thinking I would've been OK for the keys, turns out broken rib and collapsed lung so won't be out for a couple of days at least. I don't think the key could be blamed for that.

I was grand driving home though... 😉

CramCycle

At a race on Saturday and two young lads scoping out cars, brazen as you like where everyone had parked up. Ended up calling them out and they just shrugged:
We're looking, what are you at?
Was the response. Zero ****s given.

dahat

Hope the recovery goes well lads.

Was it a big smash?

Macy0161

Not sure how many went down but 4 in the ambulance, and a few more who got straight back up. Touch of wheels by one fella, and then the rest of us just didn't avoid it. I'd guess I was clipped from behind, or rather went across someone, trying to avoid as I didn't hit anyone already down.

Miklos

Macy0161 wrote: »

It turns out car key in back pocket + a crash, gives you a hole in your back that needs 6 stitches...

Jesus Christ sorry to hear that. Hope you’re not too long off the bike.

Macy0161

Miklos wrote:

Jesus Christ sorry to hear that. Hope you’re not too long off the bike.

Think the cut is the least of it. I'd say season over with the rib and lung.

Stupid thing is I used a tool bottle first race, and a small saddle bag yesterday as I wanted two bottles. I could easily have fitted the key in.

But it has me wondering about carrying keys, phone, mini pump in back pocket on normal spins too. We weren't going that fast, compared with a descent that you'd do anytime. Club races I've had keys, phone and mini pump!

wirelessdude01

sullzz wrote:

Ah so that was you ? Wouldve been nicer to meet you under better circumstances. I was the lucan lad , turns out i got a broken collarbone and have to see plastic surgeon tomorrow for my fingers . With a bit of luck ill be back for the Serc gp.

Ohh no. Heal quick.

dahat

Macy0161 wrote: »

Think the cut is the least of it. I'd say season over with the rib and lung.

Stupid thing is I used a tool bottle first race, and a small saddle bag yesterday as I wanted two bottles. I could easily have fitted the key in.

But it has me wondering about carrying keys, phone, mini pump in back pocket on normal spins too. We weren't going that fast, compared with a descent that you'd do anytime. Club races I've had keys, phone and mini pump!

Any sort of race I carry nothing for the reasons you found out in a very unfortunate manner, I'd rather walk or wait for collection that have the risk a set of keys or mini pump could do.

For normal spins I guess we have to take stuff but I do try minimise it as best I can but with a hatred for saddle bags doesn't aid my cause.

Macy0161

dahat wrote:

Any sort of race I carry nothing for the reasons you found out in a very unfortunate manner, I'd rather walk or wait for collection that have the risk a set of keys or mini pump could do.

Well I read the thread from last year, and thought it was a bit extreme. I thought a closed up fob wouldn't do much.

I do tend to use a saddlebag, as it's actually the pockets stuffed I don't like, on spins rather than races.

martyc5674

Hope you heal well!.
Food for thought re the keys etc...

What I have noticed(and I'm only the odd sportive rider so bear with me) is that sportive riders will use a saddle bag but those racing will stuff everything into their jerseys(on club rides and sportives)
Is there some saddlebag snobbery going on??!!