FTP and cycle racing.

thekooman

afraid the a1 race would catch the a4 race

harringtonp

thekooman wrote: »

afraid the a1 race would catch the a4 race

It was a 24km circuit though

thekooman

harringtonp wrote: »

It was a 24km circuit though

I was 83k at the end and it was 4 laps so just over 20k.. the comms made the decision.
tried to get away multiple times but no give. nice loop but no chance to get to the front on the last lap. every one waiting for the sprint

coco0981

Was thinking about trying to get fit enough for A4 racing next year but reading this thread and the injuries DKmac and Sullzz got would put you off. Are crashes that commonplace in A4? Would hillier races be the safer option compared to flat finishes, not many hilly courses but a couple down my way would be

dahat

Racing is brilliant when fit and strong to get invovled, don't let crashes out you off.

coco0981

dahat wrote: »

Racing is brilliant when fit and strong to get invovled, don't let crashes out you off.

Reading your own progress in this thread would give hope to a comete beginner. You seem to have got competitive in A4 straight away. Just reading about all the crashes would kinda put you off as at the end of the day cycling is just a hobby, but suppose you can break an ankle playing 5 a side as well!!

thekooman

coco0981 wrote: »

Reading your own progress in this thread would give hope to a comete beginner. You seem to have got competitive in A4 straight away. Just reading about all the crashes would kinda put you off as at the end of the day cycling is just a hobby, but suppose you can break an ankle playing 5 a side as well!!

thats it... there is a risk of injury with every sport. cycling is no worse than any other. I seen lads breaking legs etc, as you say, playing 5 a-side astro.

coco0981

thekooman wrote: »

thats it... there is a risk of injury with every sport. cycling is no worse than any other. I seen lads breaking legs etc, as you say, playing 5 a-side astro.

True, ignore me I'm just a bit of a wimp

Macy0161

coco0981 wrote: »

Was thinking about trying to get fit enough for A4 racing next year but reading this thread and the injuries DKmac and Sullzz got would put you off. Are crashes that commonplace in A4? Would hillier races be the safer option compared to flat finishes, not many hilly courses but a couple down my way would be

I went down in the same crash as Sullzz. I plan to go back, but won't know for sure until I'm back in a bunch I guess whether the head is ok with it! Hoping to get back this season for that reason.

Initially, I didn't think I would go back, but in A&E there was a guy with a broken shoulder blade from going down after a touch of wheels ahead of him in a club spin, and that kind of altered my thinking - no way am I giving up the bike, so while racing might up the risk, any time you're out on the bike you might come down either through your own fault or someone elses (other rider, vehicle, pedestrian, animal) or just the road being in crap!

fwiw the race I did before moynalty finished on a hill - the bunch sprint was to the bottom of the hill, so if you were going to compete for a place you would've had to be in that fight anyway. The crash that I went down in was mid circuit with nothing happening and just a touch of wheels ahead of me that I didn't avoid.

Hungrycol

Also worth considering is not to race on something you can't afford to replace.

dahat

coco0981 wrote: »

Reading your own progress in this thread would give hope to a comete beginner. You seem to have got competitive in A4 straight away. Just reading about all the crashes would kinda put you off as at the end of the day cycling is just a hobby, but suppose you can break an ankle playing 5 a side as well!!

In and out of A4 in 1 season, won a race for and i'll never forget that but my days of being competitive are gone as im A3 now.

I miss A4 and maybe i'll be back there soon

coco0981

dahat wrote: »

In and out of A4 in 1 season, won a race for and i'll never forget that but my days of being competitive are gone as im A3 now.

I miss A4 and maybe i'll be back there soon

No chance of that for me even if I do decide to race next year, my FTP is a fraction of most people on here. Long winter of training ahead

coco0981

Hungrycol wrote: »

Also worth considering is not to race on something you can't afford to replace.

All I have is my one aluminium bike, nothing flashy

sullzz

coco0981 wrote: »

Was thinking about trying to get fit enough for A4 racing next year but reading this thread and the injuries DKmac and Sullzz got would put you off. Are crashes that commonplace in A4? Would hillier races be the safer option compared to flat finishes, not many hilly courses but a couple down my way would be

Don’t let reports of crashes and injuries put you off , yes there are quite a few crashes each season but you know the risk signing on , nobody goes out with the intention to cause a crash .
The buzz of racing and race day itself makes up for any negativity directed towards A4s .
What I would say to you is , if it’s available to you , do club league for a while before doing open racing , even a few races and then start the open racing season late . It will stand to regarding fitness and confidence in the bunch .
Just be warned..once you start racing , it sucks you in

coco0981

sullzz wrote: »

What I would say to you is , if it’s available to you , do club league for a while before doing open racing , even a few races and then start the open racing season late . It will stand to regarding fitness and confidence in the bunch .
Just be warned..once you start racing , it sucks you in

There are club leagues alright, will hope to be able for it by the time they come around next summer.

As a very rough estimate what speed would you have to be able do on a solo 1hr flat ride to even consider A4. Presume if you could manage 32/33 solo you'd manage 35/36 in a bunch?

sullzz

coco0981 wrote: »

There are club leagues alright, will hope to be able for it by the time they come around next summer.

As a very rough estimate what speed would you have to be able do on a solo 1hr flat ride to even consider A4. Presume if you could manage 32/33 solo you'd manage 35/36 in a bunch?

I wouldn’t worry too much about your speed , it’s more your recovery between efforts and surges of speed out of corners to keep with the bunch you need to be on top of , the speed is manageable once you stay in the bunch . Plenty of interval training and you’ll be grand .

Macy0161

Club leagues into open is what I did. My club also ran race skills training, including riding in a bunch, handling contact and wheel touches (not pulling away) etc.

I'd actually have confidence in a bunch more important than fitness (which I did have...). I'm not sure you can put a speed on it, it's not steady state. Even club races aren't really the same in that respect if they're handicapped its balls out up and overs to catch/ not be caught until the finish in my experience.

Chumpski

coco0981 wrote: »

Was thinking about trying to get fit enough for A4 racing next year but reading this thread and the injuries DKmac and Sullzz got would put you off. Are crashes that commonplace in A4? Would hillier races be the safer option compared to flat finishes, not many hilly courses but a couple down my way would be

Crashes happen, I’ve raced most weekends and there is usually a crash every other weekend. Also I’ve seen a few crashes at A3 so it can happen in any category, especially when bunch is big.

Personally I take most of the risk out of racing and I take no part in bunch sprints, up the road in breaks for me or nothing. This approach is probably better too if you want to get upgraded fast as if you get in a break and stay away there’s a good chance of a podium and taking most of the points. Also it’s safer in a break, harder for sure too.

If your goal is to progress up the categories then staying in the bunch taking it handy and sprinting at the end isn’t going to help you get strong and increase that FTP.

Fair play to guys who can bunch sprint as you can do something I can’t by the way and it’s a valid strategy to win a bike race.

Go for it. It’s a fantastic sport with risks but take care, race hard and the odd good result or performance that you pull off will be worth it. I love the training too and feeling incredibly fit.

coco0981

Chumpski wrote: »

Crashes happen, I’ve raced most weekends and there is usually a crash every other weekend. Also I’ve seen a few crashes at A3 so it can happen in any category, especially when bunch is big.

Personally I take most of the risk out of racing and I take no part in bunch sprints, up the road in breaks for me or nothing. This approach is probably better too if you want to get upgraded fast as if you get in a break and stay away there’s a good chance of a podium and taking most of the points. Also it’s safer in a break, harder for sure too.

If your goal is to progress up the categories then staying in the bunch taking it handy and sprinting at the end isn’t going to help you get strong and increase that FTP.

Ya crashes are a reality of cycling it was just seeing the lads commenting about their injuries got me thinking if it's worth it

Right now my FTP is puny at190, so the limit of my ambitions would be to hold onto the very back of the bunch, no fear of a breakaway or sprinting at the end

sullzz

coco0981 wrote: »

Ya crashes are a reality of cycling it was just seeing the lads commenting about their injuries got me thinking if it's worth it

Right now my FTP is puny at190, so the limit of my ambitions would be to hold onto the very back of the bunch, no fear of a breakaway or sprinting at the end

That’s a decent base FTP to build off , don’t forget you have over 7 months before next season to work on this .
Set your ambitions higher than just hanging off the back of the bunch .
When you do get racing you will realize it’s sctually easier and safer to be at the front of the group than hanging at the back .

harringtonp

sullzz wrote: »

That’s a decent base FTP to build off , don’t forget you have over 7 months before next season to work on this .
Set your ambitions higher than just hanging off the back of the bunch .
When you do get racing you will realize it’s sctually easier and safer to be at the front of the group than hanging at the back .

You will rarely come off due to a crash if you are hanging at the back but it is considerably harder than being in the middle of the bunch

thekooman

sullzz wrote: »

That’s a decent base FTP to build off , don’t forget you have over 7 months before next season to work on this .
Set your ambitions higher than just hanging off the back of the bunch .
When you do get racing you will realize it’s sctually easier and safer to be at the front of the group than hanging at the back .

have a look at some of the workouts on "Popular Workouts" on Zwift https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/
there is a reason why they are popular... lots of 30 seconds, 1 min, 3 minute and 5min efforts in a workout. i did "The Wringer" on Tuesday which is 12 intervals of 30 seconds. you should be on your knees by the end.
You dont need Zwift to do the above; take some notes on the workouts and everytime you do a turbo or even on the road incorporate these. racing is all about short sharp responses.

delynet

I know the title of this is FTP and racing but I am not sure if it is the be all and end all for A4 racing. Yes, you need power but that is only one part of the story. A fair few of the races are not won by the strongest, wins come to those with a bit of luck or who used their strengths the best.

As someone mentioned the critical bit is to be able to deal with the surges and recover quickly. You can make things easier too, let's say there is a 90-degree corner. You can be guaranteed that in an A4 race there will be a mini sprint out of it. If you are not the strongest you make sure you hit that corner first or second and let everyone else go around you, you should still be in the group after the corner without blowing up. Same applies to hills, if you are not super powerful, get to them first to give you the best chance of hanging on.

Many new A4s sit at the back where they believe most of the shelter is but this is the worst place to be when you have all the surges going on. A key skill is to work your way into position. If you are at the back, move up the bunch. Much easier to do this than chase back to the group if you get dropped. Never settle in, always look around and plot things.

Crashes do happen. I have raced in A4 this year and thankfully I was not involved in any. Improved bike handing can help. I did a bit of cyclocross a few years ago and that helped. What can also help is communication in a race, don't be afraid to shout out that you want to move left or point to where you want to go. Let people know what you are doing. Nothing worse than someone coming out of nowhere trying to get into a gap that does not exist.

A lot of crashes happen in the bunch sprints. I am not a huge fan of A4 bunch sprints and if I am 8th or so with 100 meters to go I usually end up with zero points. Through racing and attacking Strava segments I have learned that my strength is not in a super fast short sprint, mine strength is medium fast sprinting for a longer distance. I know that if I can get to the front of a group with say 500 meters to go I can stay there and make something happen. It worked well on Sunday and I took a win.

Another thing worth considering is a coaching camp. I did one in Spain with Padraig Marrey 18 months ago. A coach will point out your weaknesses and explain some of the tactics in bike racing.

TL;DR - It's not all about FTP, the majority of racing is about tactics and positioning

fondriest

coco0981 wrote: »

Ya crashes are a reality of cycling it was just seeing the lads commenting about their injuries got me thinking if it's worth it

Right now my FTP is puny at190, so the limit of my ambitions would be to hold onto the very back of the bunch, no fear of a breakaway or sprinting at the end

A friend of mine who hadn't ridden a bike in 6 years returned to cycling 7 months ago, he did an ftp test after a couple of weeks riding around which came in at 185w , he did a test last week at 245w which is a brilliant gain in that space of time .

He has done a couple of local A4 league races in the last couple of weeks and even though found them very hard , he finished in the bunch in each of them. So plenty of time for you to get race fit.

CramCycle

+1 on the jump out of corners. Almost every corner that is tight will have a decent jump out of it.

I've lost many a race with riders timing corners better than me.

Short bursts and quick recoveries will keep you in contention in almost every A4 race.

Sinbad_NI

Crits are great for cornering skills.
Several corners every lap to get right.

Not just positioning but gear selection before you get there is critical to what happens after the corner.

Chumpski

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Crits are great for cornering skills.
Several corners every lap to get right.

Not just positioning but gear selection before you get there is critical to what happens after the corner.

If you live near Kildare, ride the Mondello crit series, you will learn a hell of a lot about cornering, positioning and sheltering there as you will need to, it’s unforgiving if you are bad at these. Lots of great bike racers do it and watch and learn from them too on race tactics.

sullzz

Chumpski wrote: »

If you live near Kildare, ride the Mondello crit series, you will learn a hell of a lot about cornering, positioning and sheltering there as you will need to, it’s unforgiving if you are bad at these. Lots of great bike racers do it and watch and learn from them too on race tactics.

+1 on Mondello , it’s amazing for building fitness and getting speed into the legs , it’s basically an hour of Z5 .
Although I wouldn’t recommend it for anyone who hasn’t raced a good few races before or isn’t comfortable at sitting in a close fast moving bunch , or to someone who isn’t great at cornering , you would want to have pretty good bike handling skills , Mondello wouldn’t be the best place to go to for a newbie racer .

Macy0161

delynet wrote: »

TL;DR - It's not all about FTP, the majority of racing is about tactics and positioning

I'd also add don't get too hung up on watts per kg. I personally feel I focused too much on that last winter, to the detriment of my total power (dropped weight, watts per kg went up, but I didn't see big improvements in FTP).

delynet

Some footage here from a race I did last year. Not an A4 race as it had all grades but what went on was very similar to an A4 race.

From the start there was a surge to deal with which calmed down after 40 seconds or so. At no point had I to do FTP power for 20mins, just a constant battle to stay in contention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYVirYJk-Tg