FTP and cycle racing.

InTheAttic

dahat wrote: »

Thanks, really enjoyed it and looking forward to more. Carrick next week but that's a whole different ball game, lumpy 80km and no one day allowed so it might be a bit more sensible.

I'll be there on friday. Do you have the strava segment for the race? Or for anyone who has done it before, how tough a circuit is it? Still building my legs so want to find a group I'm comfortable in and just get the training efforts in.

crazy_kenny

InTheAttic wrote: »

I'll be there on friday. Do you have the strava segment for the race? Or for anyone who has done it before, how tough a circuit is it? Still building my legs so want to find a group I'm comfortable in and just get the training efforts in.

Different route than last year. 4 laps of 20km. Each lap has 2 sharp left handers and one 5km drag. Link to the route is below.

http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/fullscreen/1388910691/

dahat

InTheAttic wrote: »

I'll be there on friday. Do you have the strava segment for the race? Or for anyone who has done it before, how tough a circuit is it? Still building my legs so want to find a group I'm comfortable in and just get the training efforts in.

Not the easiest of circuits and sure to be spit imo. If ya see a TCR in your group hit me up as I won't be up the road this time.
It's pre registration only and limited to 80 riders which is a relief.

InTheAttic

dahat wrote: »

Not the easiest of circuits and sure to be spit imo. If ya see a TCR in your group hit me up as I won't be up the road this time.
It's pre registration only and limited to 80 riders which is a relief.

Will do. Yeah I've registered. All the better if the group is split. It's safer. I'll let those "early-bloomers" go and won't even try to make my way to the front this time. It's a long season and i'll get my legs in time.

dahat

InTheAttic wrote: »

Will do. Yeah I've registered. All the better if the group is split. It's safer. I'll let those "early-bloomers" go and won't even try to make my way to the front this time. It's a long season and i'll get my legs in time.

Just back from a quick loop of the circuit and 80km round there will be torture imo. Two very fast parts but the draggy parts will hurt and I'd expect the group to be in tatters after the first lap.

CramCycle

Do people want me to split the chats into different threads for the different races? PM me if you do.

tegerman

dahat wrote: »

Just back from a quick loop of the circuit and 80km round there will be torture imo. Two very fast parts but the draggy parts will hurt and I'd expect the group to be in tatters after the first lap.

Wouldn't be so sure. There were three drags per lap last year (including this years one) and the group stayed together pretty much whole way round.

But yes, it will be torture

dahat

tegerman wrote: »

Wouldn't be so sure. There were three drags per lap last year (including this years one) and the group stayed together pretty much whole way round.

But yes, it will be torture

I hope you are right as I'm planning to hide as long as possible and try get a top 20 placing which I think will be a good result for me.

CramCycle

Knocking out 250W without much stress for half an hour in work. Based on not being clipped in and not receiving much in the way of pressure. This leaves me severely undersetimating my W/kg at 3, which as far as I can tell, puts me in the bottom half of A4.

Key thing taken here, not back of A4. Must try and get time on the Wattbike and get an accurate measurement.

Sarz91

CramCycle wrote: »

Knocking out 250W without much stress for half an hour in work. Based on not being clipped in and not receiving much in the way of pressure. This leaves me severely undersetimating my W/kg at 3, which as far as I can tell, puts me in the bottom half of A4.

Key thing taken here, not back of A4. Must try and get time on the Wattbike and get an accurate measurement.

Can I have your job? Or can you point me in the right direction as to where to apply?

CramCycle

Sarz91 wrote: »

Can I have your job? Or can you point me in the right direction as to where to apply?

It is actually with people I used to know through work years ago, they are doing a study on type 1 diabetics, so it was done at lunch time. They have a Watt bike in the back lab and I know the lab tech so I am going to see how amenable he is to me having the odd trial on it when the study is over. Only flaw in the study was the lack of a fan, I sweated buckets even though I was not pushing myself at all, felt I could have kept it up for alot longer if it wasn't for the sweat and having to leg it back to work. Also got muscle biopsies done for the study. They don't hurt to get done but it does feel a bit like you have leg cramps later on in the day.

Harrybelafonte

Question for you Cram

Were you doing these tests while down at the track?

Is it true that track riders tend to have higher wattage output for the shorter periods, but a lower FTP? Like the 5 minute is higher than a similar level on the road but the hour is well off for the same?

CramCycle

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Question for you Cram

Were you doing these tests while down at the track?

Is it true that track riders tend to have higher wattage output for the shorter periods, but a lower FTP? Like the 5 minute is higher than a similar level on the road but the hour is well off for the same?

TBH, I am not sure but it would make sense for short distance riders on the track versus long distance road riders.
I wasn't doing this while I was down at the track unfortunately. I have noticed that since I have left the track though that my short term power has dropped quite a bit. My jump is gone completely (and it wasn't great anyway).
I did a test years ago and i know I could knock out well over 800W for a 5 second test on a Watt bike, and 800W would be the minimum for those 5 sec, not the average. Nowadays, I would struggle to hold 600W for a short time but there are so many factors that could influence that, it may mean nothing.

If time allows I am going to try and get out again this year for a few sessions as I was in far better shape with my one track night a week than I am now actively trying to get faster on the road but I live alot further away now so it is not as easy.

Harrybelafonte

Yeah, I understand. I'm not sure where things are now after so long off the bike. I tested a few years ago with a similar result to your own, but back now after the injuries and I struggle to keep the power up and my FTP was terrible. Like woefully bad.

dahat

What way do ye view FTP and normalized power after a spin? Read a few bits that say they are quite similar.

I'm still to do an FTP with the Stages as I'm in a 3 race period so not keen on burningy ass too much with a 4 & 9 day break between each race.

mossym

dahat wrote: »

What way do ye view FTP and normalized power after a spin? Read a few bits that say they are quite similar.

I'm still to do an FTP with the Stages as I'm in a 3 race period so not keen on burningy ass too much with a 4 & 9 day break between each race.

on what basis would normalised power and ftp be the same, or even similar?

normalised power, on a well controlled ride, might be very similar to average power. they are both hugely different to ftp, unless you did a flat out one hour ride.

Shoco83

Inquitus wrote: »

Watts/Kg is a big deal, if you can hit close to 4W/Kg then you'll do very well in A4 and end up in A3, don't know what you weigh.

I wish it was that straight forward, according to my smart turbo and TrainerRoad I'm at just over 3.9W/Kg but have been dropped in most races I have done. I know I have the legs but poor positioning a probable lack of confidence in big bunches means I always seem to get bullied towards the back, there's only so much chasing out of every corner or over the top of every hill before you can't hold on anymore

dahat

mossym wrote: »

on what basis would normalised power and ftp be the same, or even similar?

normalised power, on a well controlled ride, might be very similar to average power. they are both hugely different to ftp, unless you did a flat out one hour ride.

Average power seems to be better realted to my FTP than normalised power which according to some articles is a better reflection of the spin and your ftp.

I can't see it myself which is why I'm seeking opinions on it.

mossym

dahat wrote: »

Average power seems to be better realted to my FTP than normalised power which according to some articles is a better reflection of the spin and your ftp.

I can't see it myself which is why I'm seeking opinions on it.

as i said above, neither average power or normalised power is related to ftp unless, as i said above, you do a flat out hour spin.

you could have an ftp of 300. if you were to go out on a very easy spin. ap and np could both be 100, if you pedalled consistently and evenly. if you did a lot of surges and coasting, np could be higher than AP, as NP takes into account teh variance of the surges, whereas AP doesn't

your FTP doesn't change from ride to ride, well it might, but by very little, as you get fitter/stronger
AP and NP could very from 1% of your ftp to 500% of your ftp or more, depending on length and intentisty of the ride.

you cannot tell what a persons ftp is by looking at AP or NP, unless, and i'm repeating myself again now, its a flat out test for an hour, or a flat out test for a shorter period and you apply a derating factor(which is how the 20 mins test is run)

honestly, you should pick up the training with power book. not understanding ftp, NP, AP, and to a lesser extent IF, variability index, makes using a power meter pretty pointless.

CramCycle

Shoco83 wrote: »

I wish it was that straight forward, according to my smart turbo and TrainerRoad I'm at just over 3.9W/Kg but have been dropped in most races I have done. I know I have the legs but poor positioning a probable lack of confidence in big bunches means I always seem to get bullied towards the back, there's only so much chasing out of every corner or over the top of every hill before you can't hold on anymore

It can be quite psychological as well. I had a guy last week who I should have been well able to take one on one one but I was behind him, could not get out and he kept stopping and starting. I couldn't get out and I felt it killed my legs. Then when the first bunch went from me, I really think I should have had the legs to tag on and keep it up for another while but once I got dropped off, it only kicked in after the climb and I was just chasing for ages whereas the effort to chase would have been more than sufficient to stay in with them.

In my opinion, riding races is the best training you can do. The machine only shows potential, you have that, what you need now is experience and a little bit of ignorance. Experience to teach you what is right/wrong/stupid, recklessness to teach you that sometimes being stupid is how you get stronger, riding off the front, following a wheel of a better rider off the front, spinning off the front either to achieve the unlikely or even just to annoy the **** out of everyone else there and show them, you can. The lads sitting in the bunch all the way round are getting experience but they aren't getting better.

dahat

mossym wrote: »

as i said above, neither average power or normalised power is related to ftp unless, as i said above, you do a flat out hour spin.

you could have an ftp of 300. if you were to go out on a very easy spin. ap and np could both be 100, if you pedalled consistently and evenly. if you did a lot of surges and coasting, np could be higher than AP, as NP takes into account teh variance of the surges, whereas AP doesn't

your FTP doesn't change from ride to ride, well it might, but by very little, as you get fitter/stronger
AP and NP could very from 1% of your ftp to 500% of your ftp or more, depending on length and intentisty of the ride.

you cannot tell what a persons ftp is by looking at AP or NP, unless, and i'm repeating myself again now, its a flat out test for an hour, or a flat out test for a shorter period and you apply a derating factor(which is how the 20 mins test is run)

honestly, you should pick up the training with power book. not understanding ftp, NP, AP, and to a lesser extent IF, variability index, makes using a power meter pretty pointless.

I'm to power meter training and haven't got into it heavily yet so any advice or criticism is welcome at this point.
You are correct in saying I need to understand what the pm spits back at me and how to interpid it going forward.

Miklos

Really the best thing for you to do at this stage is go and bang out an FTP test, that'll give you a benchmark in this early part of the season, and then you'll have something to a) use to train b) compare and contrast later in the season.

Substitute it for one of your other workouts and you won't be too toasted.

That's what I did anyway, once I had ironed out any kinks in the operation of the PM. I got a Stages recently too and found it was dropping signal when I had my Garmin on an out-front mount as it was too far away.

py

dahat wrote: »

What way do ye view FTP and normalized power after a spin? Read a few bits that say they are quite similar.

I'm still to do an FTP with the Stages as I'm in a 3 race period so not keen on burningy ass too much with a 4 & 9 day break between each race.

Setup an account on trainingpeaks. They've a feature that will calculate your FTP (and FTHR) based off your best 20 minute effort from your ride files. Even though you've not done your actual FTP test yet, your race should have a good solid effort that they can base it off.

Inquitus

Shoco83 wrote: »

I wish it was that straight forward, according to my smart turbo and TrainerRoad I'm at just over 3.9W/Kg but have been dropped in most races I have done. I know I have the legs but poor positioning a probable lack of confidence in big bunches means I always seem to get bullied towards the back, there's only so much chasing out of every corner or over the top of every hill before you can't hold on anymore

Short term power and recovery are very important in Irish racing, being able to charge out of the corners and power up those short hillocks without destroying the legs. Intelligent racing also is super important, make sure you note which way the wind is blowing, and position accordingly, hold position in the middle or towards the front of the pack, any yoyoing out of corners is way worse the further back you are. You need to not be bullied off wheels and hold your own or you will inevitably drift back. Racing intelligently will lower the Power required to get to the gallop by a significant amount.

dahat

py wrote: »

Setup an account on trainingpeaks. They've a feature that will calculate your FTP (and FTHR) based off your best 20 minute effort from your ride files. Even though you've not done your actual FTP test yet, your race should have a good solid effort that they can base it off.

Is this a subscription or is the free part enough to gain what i need from it?

py

dahat wrote: »

Is this a subscription or is the free part enough to gain what i need from it?

I think the free part should be enough.

Sarz91

If we're talking about software and power I wouldn't look past golden cheetah. Free, easy enough to use and support on Google forums is pretty good.

dahat

InTheAttic wrote: »

Will do. Yeah I've registered. All the better if the group is split. It's safer. I'll let those "early-bloomers" go and won't even try to make my way to the front this time. It's a long season and i'll get my legs in time.

Best of luck today,dull & wind starting to pick here locally.
See ya on the road!

InTheAttic

dahat wrote: »

Best of luck today,dull & wind starting to pick here locally.
See ya on the road!

I can't make it down unfortunately but 2 of my buddies will be there in A4. Have a good one! Let us know how you go we should stick up a new thread maybe.

dahat

Cracking race today, only for wrong line into the Sprint and one gear wrong I'd have gotten a Top 10, well pleased.

Training Peaks gave me a Threshold Value of 305 after today's race.

With some luck and experience I might actually go close to landing a race maybe.