Strange findings on Chain Reaction for Irish buyers.

The tax man

Not sure if this is a recent anomaly on Chain Reaction or if the merging with Wiggle has anything to do with it.
I've always seen a slight price difference depending on what currency you've selected, a lot of times I'll buy in sterling and let my CC give me a more favorable exchange rate. Nothing major but maybe the odd Euro on bigger purchases.
Over the past few days I've started to see discounts on items differ wildly depending on which country you select between Ireland and the UK.
Also noticed that certain products aren't listed whatsoever for Irish customers, again I've never noticed this before.
Some the examples I've come across...
Mavic Crossmax wheelset. UK 50% off £382.99=€447.39
IRL 10% off €899.99
Link.

Tacx Bushido trainer. UK 21% off £465.99 = €533.74
IRL 10% off €610.99
Link
Wahoo products not listed at all while in Irish mode.At least on some of the German sites they'll tell you the item is only available to ship within Germany but don't hide the product from viewing.
We're all used to seeing different pricing with online sites when the Irish VAT rate comes into play but it's the first time, especially on CRC, that I've noticed blatantly different offers on products depending on the country you've selected.

Easy to get around with the likes of ParcelMotel etc but has anyone else noticed this before or is it something they're just starting to roll out?

ted1

The tax man wrote: »

Not sure if this is a recent anomaly on Chain Reaction or if the merging with Wiggle has anything to do with it.
I've always seen a slight price difference depending on what currency you've selected, a lot of times I'll buy in sterling and let my CC give me a more favorable exchange rate. Nothing major but maybe the odd Euro on bigger purchases.
Over the past few days I've started to see discounts on items differ wildly depending on which country you select between Ireland and the UK.
Also noticed that certain products aren't listed whatsoever for Irish customers, again I've never noticed this before.
Some the examples I've come across...
Mavic Crossmax wheelset. UK 50% off £382.99=€447.39
IRL 10% off €899.99
Link.

Tacx Bushido trainer. UK 21% off £465.99 = €533.74
IRL 10% off €610.99
Link
Wahoo products not listed at all while in Irish mode.At least on some of the German sites they'll tell you the item is only available to ship within Germany but don't hide the product from viewing.
We're all used to seeing different pricing with online sites when the Irish VAT rate comes into play but it's the first time, especially on CRC, that I've noticed blatantly different offers on products depending on the country you've selected.

Easy to get around with the likes of ParcelMotel etc but has anyone else noticed this before or is it something they're just starting to roll out?

It breaches European law.

68 lost souls

There was a similar thread on here a while ago if you do a search. Discusses it at length.

Many people have been in touch with shops about it and they have a half a55 response about knowing they can charge more to certain markets.

kaef

Shopping websites allow admins to put different prices even in case whether user was redirected, typed address manually, used Google search or built-in search engine.

If I could spot such a huge difference on a product I want to buy I'd get it from UK with no doubts. I do my best to support Irish market and local business but with a price difference over 100euros I say 'sorry I can't afford to shop local'.

harringtonp

I was this recently looking to buy an aero helmet on wiggle. Massive difference, was planning on posting a WTF but you got here first.

How does calculated VAT work thesedays, it use to be the same calculated amount no matter where you bought from in the EU.

Anybody have the link to that other discussion thread, I never bothered with the likes of Parcel Motel before as price differences were not worth it but they are now

ted1

harringtonp wrote: »

I was this recently looking to buy an aero helmet on wiggle. Massive difference, was planning on posting a WTF but you got here first.

How does calculated VAT work thesedays, it use to be the same calculated amount no matter where you bought from in the EU.

Anybody have the link to that other discussion thread, I never bothered with the likes of Parcel Motel before as price differences were not worth it but they are now

Helmets are VAT exempt in the Uk

harringtonp

ted1 wrote: »

Helmets are VAT exempt in the Uk

Very interesting. So is VAT meant to be charged on items in the EU at the country of destination's rate ?

Perhaps this was always the case but in times past was it a case that web site shopping apps were not advanced enough and VAT was charged at the originators VAT rate ?

smacl

A fair amount of discussion on this on a previous thread here. I'm assuming once Brexit takes effect (when and if) that the EU law angle will no longer apply. Best advice as always is to shop around and go with the best bottom line price. It would be worth looking at a site like Evans who do price matching, and see if they'd match the CRC UK price but just add delivery to Ireland. (Edit: Just sent a quick email to Evans to ask them this, could be worth doing with other suppliers that price match).

ted1

harringtonp wrote: »

Very interesting. So is VAT meant to be charged on items in the EU at the country of destination's rate ?

Perhaps this was always the case but in times past was it a case that web site shopping apps were not advanced enough and VAT was charged at the originators VAT rate ?

If a company sells more than 70k of stuff into a country they must register for VAT and charge VAT at the countries rate

Beasty

They do the same to me, and I'm not Irish.....:pac:

TBH, the behaviour of CRC and Wiggle on this front has annoyed me. They know they are breaking the law but think they can get away with it. I wrote to them about this last time we had a thread about it and they corrected their prices. If they are now going back to their old tricks I think I may get in touch with relevant trading standards organisations. In the meantime I'm just going to continue to buy from elsewhere (even if I end up paying more)

smacl

Just got this back from Evans, I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar response from other UK, Irish and European vendors that offer price matching. As I read it, if you see something on CRC or Wiggle that has an inflated price to the Irish market, if Evans stock the same item they supply it at the price it would be available to UK customers. Picked up a couple of small bits from Evans last week and the turnaround was great. From what I've seen CRC and Wiggle often tend to be the first port of call for many Irish cyclists, but I don't think they do anything to deserve this position.

Thank you for your e-mail.

We can price match again CRC and Wiggle and are happy to then ship to Ireland. You will need to pay in GBP to do this and submit the price match through our website or call centre.

You can apply for a price match online by clicking the ‘Price Match’ link on any of our product pages.

This link will open a pop-up form which you will need to fill out in order to apply for a Price Match discount. Once we have checked all of the details of your Price Match, we will e-mail you to let you know if it has been approved. If approved, your e-mail will contain a discount code which you can use to purchase your item online by entering the code at the checkout stage. Please note that this code is only valid for a period of three days.

Please note, if you would like to submit multiple price matches on a single order, or if you are an international customer, please call us on +44 (0)1293 574900 and we would be more than happy to assist you.

For full details on which retailers we price match with, as well as all other terms and conditions relating to our Price Match policy, please see the ‘Price Match‘ page on our website.


If you have any other questions regarding price matching, please do not hesitate to contact us again.

If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us again and we would be more than happy to assist you further.

Kind regards,

Laura
Evans Cycles

The tax man

smacl wrote: »

Just got this back from Evans, I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar response from other UK, Irish and European vendors that offer price matching. As I read it, if you see something on CRC or Wiggle that has an inflated price to the Irish market, if Evans stock the same item they supply it at the price it would be available to UK customers. Picked up a couple of small bits from Evans last week and the turnaround was great. From what I've seen CRC and Wiggle often tend to be the first port of call for many Irish cyclists, but I don't think they do anything to deserve this position.

Most of my bike related purchases this year were from Evans. Far cheaper on most items after checking out the others. Only really use CRC if the price is right and I need something in a hurry.
I tried the Evans price match some months back. Pain in the hole due to the fact their system wouldn't let me attach a link to the cheaper price I found. Gave up in the end.

smacl

The tax man wrote: »

Most of my bike related purchases this year were from Evans. Far cheaper on most items after checking out the others. Only really use CRC if the price is right and I need something in a hurry.
I tried the Evans price match some months back. Pain in the hole due to the fact their system wouldn't let me attach a link to the cheaper price I found. Gave up in the end.

I find the best value for any given item seems to fluctuate significantly between the sites and tend to shop around between those I trust on that basis, looking at shipped price. A couple of years ago that was more often than not the Germans sites, but with Sterling in decline, the likes of Evans, SJS, and Ribble are often coming out on top again. Got a few bits from CSS too, and will usually check their prices.

Maidhci

The tax man wrote: »

Most of my bike related purchases this year were from Evans. Far cheaper on most items after checking out the others. Only really use CRC if the price is right and I need something in a hurry.
I tried the Evans price match some months back. Pain in the hole due to the fact their system wouldn't let me attach a link to the cheaper price I found. Gave up in the end.

I ordered some cycling gear from Evans on two occasions last year or year before and neither were delivered. When this happens, you are advised to wait for 4 weeks before proceeding to process a refund request - can be a pain in the neck for that reason. I do see that their prices on some items are cheaper than CRC but reluctant to order again because of the poor service. Perhaps they have changed since then?

Beasty

Been using Evans quite a bit recently. Particularly competitive on helmets as they are not registered for VAT in Ireland. May not be far off having to register mind...

Kaisr Sose

Beasty wrote: »

Been using Evans quite a bit recently. Particularly competitive on helmets as they are not registered for VAT in Ireland. May not be far off having to register mind...

Have you just realised you spent close to €70k with them this year

The CRC/Wiggle geographic discriminatory pricing is an as_!

rubadub

harringtonp wrote: »

Very interesting. So is VAT meant to be charged on items in the EU at the country of destination's rate ?

the money does go to our government, so if I saw the same item at the same after VAT price on 2 sites I would with one paying Irish VAT if the other wasn't

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/leaflets/distance-sales-eu.html

Thresholds

Under the EU VAT arrangements, Member States were required to adopt a distance sales threshold of either €35,000 or €100,000. Ireland has opted for €35,000

The French lowered theres on jan 1 2016, maybe feeling the pinch of online buying.

http://www.vatlive.com/vat-news/france-lowers-distance-selling-vat-threshold-to-e35000/

Chuchote

ted1 wrote: »

It breaches European law.

What law, specifically? Just curious, and when Britain pinches its nose and leaps into the flaming caldera that is Brexit, probably in the next couple of weeks, these laws will cease to operate, but it would be interesting to know.

If there's an importer out there that would do a deal with a French exporter of cycle stuff at good prices, they could scoop up a nice slice of the market in Ireland.

ted1

Chuchote wrote: »

What law, specifically? Just curious, and when Britain pinches its nose and leaps into the flaming caldera that is Brexit, probably in the next couple of weeks, these laws will cease to operate, but it would be interesting to know.

If there's an importer out there that would do a deal with a French exporter of cycle stuff at good prices, they could scoop up a nice slice of the market in Ireland.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/pricing-payments/index_en.htm


Here's a good few examples of it being broken.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/competition/news/eu-probes-disneyland-paris-for-alleged-price-discrimination/

gordongekko

ted1 wrote: »

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/pricing-payments/index_en.htm


Here's a good few examples of it being broken.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/competition/news/eu-probes-disneyland-paris-for-alleged-price-discrimination/

Milk varies in price from my local centra compared to the centra near my parents. I'm off to the eu to complain :rolleyes:

rubadub

ted1 wrote: »

Here's a good few examples of it being broken.

Have you seen any examples of companies doing smilar to CRC being done for it? I looked before and found none. I also could not find any site explicitly saying what CRC are doing would be against the law.

Some price differences can however be justified

that bit sounded like they could have excuses which are jusitfied.

I was saying in another thread if they were in breach of the law they could easily get around the law & continue charging wildly different prices by simply introducing postage charges, same bike could be £1000 free delivery to UK or £1000 + £400 delivery to Ireland.

If it did have to be the same price I would also guess this could be the ex-VAT price.

ted1

gordongekko wrote: »

Milk varies in price from my local centra compared to the centra near my parents. I'm off to the eu to complain :rolleyes:

But that's different shops.
In this case it's simple the shop changing the price based on the customers location.

Beasty

ted1 wrote: »

But that's different shops.
In this case it's simple the shop changing the price based on the customers location.

And it's also not discrimination by reference to "country of residence", which is specifically outlawed within the EU.

In that case the shop charges the same price to everyone who enters, wherever they may reside

In the CRC scenario they are most definitely discriminating by reference to the location of the consumer, with different prices being charged based on which county they are delivering to

They could choose to charge different prices for delivery, but have decided not to. They offer free delivery in both UK and Ireland and therefore any delivery costs are completely irrelevant, meaning the only price difference they can (and indeed must under EU law) apply is in relation to VAT (which is charged by reference to destination as CRC are registered for VAT in Ireland)

We covered all this off in the last thread on the subject

rubadub

Beasty wrote: »

They could choose to charge different prices for delivery, but have decided not to. They offer free delivery in both UK and Ireland and therefore any delivery costs are completely irrelevant

I wondered if delivery costs could be used as one of the "justified reasons", the term "free delivery" is widely accepted as a complete misnomer, its a marketing tactic.

I have seen nothing to convince me what CRC are doing is definitely illegal. If there are other shops done for it I would like to see if they argued any "justified reasons".

In that other thread I linked to this report which mentions how vague the law is

http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/newsroom/image/document/2016-5/uk_government_13504.pdf

The Services Directive is not clear about what counts as a justified reason for differential
treatment of consumers. The legal text (Article 20) sets out that the recipient of a service
should not be made subject to ‘discriminatory requirements based on his nationality or
place of residence’ but leaves open the option for ‘differences in the condition of access’
where these differences are ‘directly justified by objective criteria’. However, the Directive
fails to define what would count as an ‘objective criteria’. While the recitals (Recital 95) are
of some assistance in defining ‘objective criteria’, they take a broad approach by listing a
wide range of justifiable reasons for differential treatment of consumers, including ‘different
market conditions, such as higher or lower demand’.

gordongekko

ted1 wrote: »

But that's different shops.
In this case it's simple the shop changing the price based on the customers location.

North side shop v south side

Beasty

gordongekko wrote: »

North side shop v south side

If both within the ROI that's completely irrelevant - the rules we are talking about here relate to country of residence

harringtonp

ted1 wrote: »

But that's different shops.
In this case it's simple the shop changing the price based on the customers location.

Happened me all the time travelling in South America some decades back.

"Ah gringo, you want good gringo price"

Beasty

rubadub wrote: »

I wondered if delivery costs could be used as one of the "justified reasons", the term "free delivery" is widely accepted as a complete misnomer, its a marketing tactic.

I have seen nothing to convince me what CRC are doing is definitely illegal. If there are other shops done for it I would like to see if they argued any "justified reasons".

In that other thread I linked to this report which mentions how vague the law is

http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/newsroom/image/document/2016-5/uk_government_13504.pdf

I have no doubt if they wanted to rely on something like that on the distribution costs they would then fall foul of misleading advertising laws

Not only that, but they only apply the price differential to certain, not all goods. Equally it's not just, for example, "bulky" goods. They would fall flat on their faces if they tried going down that route

They are without doubt in my view, breaking the law, it just needs someone to properly challenge them. I've gone down the route of pointing their misdemeanour out to them during our previous thread, and they corrected everything probably on the back of a number of representations being made. They've gone back on that and now have absolutely no excuse, given they did correct it all last time

ted1

gordongekko wrote: »

North side shop v south side

Different stores, different rents , different staff, different insurance, difference costs etc
both stores will charge any customer who walks in to the premises the same price
An online store is using the same website , same staff and same warehouse.

gordongekko

Beasty wrote: »

If both within the ROI that's completely irrelevant - the rules we are talking about here relate to country of residence

Tesco's charge a different price for Lyon's tea in the north than the south

Beasty

gordongekko wrote: »

Tesco's charge a different price for Lyon's tea in the north than the south

So what? That's simply not the point. Tesco Ireland are a different company from Tesco UK