Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2017

beno619

jayo26 wrote: »

I just don't agree. What does ander bring to the team attacking wise that's even close to what pogba does?

Your midfield of new midfielder/ander and Miki or mata is fine if we are playing with two defensive minded Midfielders but we should very rarely need that if we have a strong defensive midfielder or else we should of just kept lvg.

And I didn't say he was more effective number 10 I don't believe he is a number 10 he is a slightly deeper creative player that can make chances for the likes of Miki and Zlatan but he can also defend if needed but he aint an out and out defensive midfielder.

If you have ander there we are more solid defensively but you loose out with chances created and goals simple as that.

I made up that midfield because u kept talking about mata and Miki and ander been superior midfielders to pogba but they aint they are totally different attacking midfielders and two of them don't go into a team together in a midfield 3.

As ive already said we clearly don't agree on what a midfielder is, for me Scholes was a proper midfielder as opposed to Gerrard.

Your downplaying Herrera to strengthen your argument but you know he's more than capable of doing it all.

You can misrepresent as much as you like. I said Mata & Miki are better #10's and Herrera is a better Midfielder.

domrush

beno619 wrote: »

As ive already said we clearly don't agree on what a midfielder is, for me Scholes was a proper midfielder as opposed to Gerrard.

Your downplaying Herrera to strengthen your argument but you know he's more than capable of doing it all.

You can misrepresent as much as you like. I said Mata & Miki are better #10's and Herrera is a better Midfielder.

Gerrard a far more all round MFer surely? Scholes was much better going forward but had poor defensive game?

jayo26

beno619 wrote: »

Your downplaying Herrera to strengthen your argument but you know he's more than capable of doing it all.

.

Im not down playing him I have said all along I like him as a midfielder I Asked you what does he offer going forward thats anyway close to what pogba does? Pogba has out scored him and rear more then him and assist more then him?

Sorry yes you said they were better number 10s which I didn't argue but that's because pogba ain't a number 10.

And no point on talking about Gérard and Scholes they don't even play football anymore.

bucketybuck

domrush wrote: »

Gerrard a far more all round MFer surely? Scholes was much better going forward but had poor defensive game?

A few dodgy tackles here and there does not mean a poor defensive game.

Trigger

beno619 wrote: »

As ive already said we clearly don't agree on what a midfielder is, for me Scholes was a proper midfielder as opposed to Gerrard.

Your downplaying Herrera to strengthen your argument but you know he's more than capable of doing it all.

You can misrepresent as much as you like. I said Mata & Miki are better #10's and Herrera is a better Midfielder.

Really agree with your point there but the game has moved on from that and the "proper midfielder' is a dying breed, its all about specialist midfielders these days and while I think Herrera is on of the former, most midfielders are set specific tasks these days in formations.

Pogba is imo a left sided box to box midfielder but with more emphasis on the attacking side of the game and excels with more disciplined players beside him in a midfield 3. Now don't get me wrong, he has definitely had an average season but he has really not played completely in his favoured position and Mourinho is asking him to play positions that for the last 4/5 years have been alien to him. He has still put up good numbers while playing below par. When he had a consistent run within the midfield 3 this season he has performed much better.

Im just interested at this point to see if Jose brings in a DM in the summer, I think Pogba would flourish with someone like Bakayoko behind him

Trigger

domrush wrote: »

Gerrard a far more all round MFer surely? Scholes was much better going forward but had poor defensive game?

Some terrible timed tackles that are remembered over the incredible knack to knick the ball from an opponents foot and also being in the right position at the right time

Billy86

beno619 wrote: »

Herrera is a superior midfielder the fact that he's been able to change his game this season only highlights Pogba's shortcomings.

Herrera also scored a lot more goals than Pogba in his debut season with much less game time and far fewer shots.

Mata is a better #10 maybe my use of advanced midfielder was too vague.
Pogba's defensive work or lack of is infuriating.

I love Herrera to bits, but in his first season he had one more goal than Pogba currently has, with over two months to go. On March 11th 2015, he actually had two less goals than Pogba currently does.

beno619

jayo26 wrote: »

Im not down playing him I have said all along I like him as a midfielder I Asked you what does he offer going forward thats anyway close to what pogba does? Pogba has out scored him and rear more then him and assist more then him?

He brings balance, he's better at setting the tempo. He has a brain. he doesnt give the ball away cheaply.

Who was everyone clamouring for to come on against Bournemouth and change the game ?
Who delivered real quality in the cup final when it was really needed ?
Who has consistently performed in big games this season ?

Chelsea are going to win the league with 2 well balanced midfielders.

Pogba needs to be scoring and creating a hell of a lot more to make up for his shortcomings.

Hoping to see a first big game performance from him on monday but im not expecting much.

jayo26

Pogba has 85 percent passing rate to anders 88 so that not much considering alot of Pogbas passes are forward to the front line creating chances.

You are right we wont agree because simply put the team needs more creativity and assists that ander won't give you but pogba will and as dave put it a midfield of Pogba and ander will work with a DM behind them.

We're arguing over different type midfielders as we don't have another midfielder that can do what pogba does.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

It's great when your main issue is fitting in a world class player!

jayo26

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Buy Kante win the premier league its a simple formula :pac:

image upload with preview

Not bad for a lazy midfielder that's infuriating defensively

beno619

jayo26 wrote: »

You are right we wont agree because simply put the team needs more creativity and assists that ander won't give you but pogba will and as dave put it a midfield of Pogba and ander will work with a DM behind them.

It needs a midfield that wont be bypassed and better finishing.

We are creating more that enough chances and probably need more from the wide men.

The Pogba - Herrera - Fellaini/Carrick midfield was used in both Pool games and he was woeful there's zero evidence based on his time as a United player that he can be relied upon to be a creative in big games.

jayo26

beno619 wrote: »

It needs a midfield that wont be bypassed and better finishing.

We are creating more that enough chances and probably need more from the wide men.

The Pogba - Herrera - Fellaini/Carrick midfield was used in both Pool games and he was woeful there's zero evidence based on his time as a United player that he can be relied upon to be a creative in big games.

Because the defensive part of that midfield ie Carrick and Fellaini were not good enough.

bucketybuck

So to get the best out of Pogba it has to be a midfield 3 with a DM and a Herrera type beside him. Fair enough.

We also need a striker and we know Jose likes the big, mobile man up front approach, so that position is going to be a Zlatan or Drogba type, which is grand.

That leaves two. Three in the middle and a central striker means two attackers left and right, and they will have to have pace and a lot of creativity to make the attack function.

Does that suit Greizmann? No point buying him then. I thought it might suit Martial and Rashford but don't they want to be strikers? I don't think it suits Mata at all and as for Rooney...maybe 6 years ago but not any more. It does suit Mikitarian so he will be playing.

I just hope there is some sort of plan there because the issue is this, for Pogba to play we need to set the team up around him. But if we do set the team up around him and he doesn't start playing like a world class midfielder, well, then Jose could have a career defining problem on his hands.

beno619

jayo26 wrote: »

Because the defensive part of that midfield ie Carrick and Fellaini were not good enough.

Thats simply not true but you already know that.

jayo26

beno619 wrote: »

Thats simply not true but you already know that.

If I knew it I wouldn't say that I'm not the one that stated a stat that wasn't threw

beno619

jayo26 wrote: »

If I knew it I wouldn't say that I'm not the one that stated a stat that wasn't threw

Which I accepted.

1 Chance created in 180 minutes. Big game bottler.

http://epl.squawka.com/english-premier-league/15-01-2017/man-utd-vs-liverpool/matches#player-paul-pogba-2710

http://epl.squawka.com/english-premier-league/17-10-2016/liverpool-vs-man-utd/matches#player-paul-pogba-2710

Trigger

bucketybuck wrote: »

So to get the best out of Pogba it has to be a midfield 3 with a DM and a Herrera type beside him. Fair enough.

We also need a striker and we know Jose likes the big, mobile man up front approach, so that position is going to be a Zlatan or Drogba type, which is grand.

That leaves two. Three in the middle and a central striker means two attackers left and right, and they will have to have pace and a lot of creativity to make the attack function.

Does that suit Greizmann? No point buying him then. I thought it might suit Martial and Rashford but don't they want to be strikers? I don't think it suits Mata at all and as for Rooney...maybe 6 years ago but not any more. It does suit Mikitarian so he will be playing.

I just hope there is some sort of plan there because the issue is this, for Pogba to play we need to set the team up around him. But if we do set the team up around him and he doesn't start playing like a world class midfielder, well, then Jose could have a career defining problem on his hands.

It would suit Griezmann as he can play from the right of the front three, though that means 3 of Martial mata Rashford and Mkhi miss out.. I actually think with the way Griezmann is downplaying the move makes me think that we won't be going for him and we might go for Lukaku/Kane instead. If we were going to play him behind the front man then we won't be playing Pogba in a midfield three which IMO would be a mistake.

I personally would rather have the team set around Pogba and buy Lukaku and Bakayoko

jayo26

beno619 wrote: »

Which I accepted.

1 Chance created in 180 minutes. Big game bottler.

http://epl.squawka.com/english-premier-league/15-01-2017/man-utd-vs-liverpool/matches#player-paul-pogba-2710

http://epl.squawka.com/english-premier-league/17-10-2016/liverpool-vs-man-utd/matches#player-paul-pogba-2710

Great stuff debate finished.

jayo26

https://www.instagram.com/p/BRf68BXFCDx/

Hopefully we won't miss this guy on monday

J. Marston

Those stat comparisons things can be so stupid. There was one on Reddit and Redcafe that made Herrera look like a more effective player than Kante. It's ridiculous.

Robson99

bucketybuck wrote: »

So to get the best out of Pogba it has to be a midfield 3 with a DM and a Herrera type beside him. Fair enough.

We also need a striker and we know Jose likes the big, mobile man up front approach, so that position is going to be a Zlatan or Drogba type, which is grand.

That leaves two. Three in the middle and a central striker means two attackers left and right, and they will have to have pace and a lot of creativity to make the attack function.

Does that suit Greizmann? No point buying him then. I thought it might suit Martial and Rashford but don't they want to be strikers? I don't think it suits Mata at all and as for Rooney...maybe 6 years ago but not any more. It does suit Mikitarian so he will be playing.

I just hope there is some sort of plan there because the issue is this, for Pogba to play we need to set the team up around him. But if we do set the team up around him and he doesn't start playing like a world class midfielder, well, then Jose could have a career defining problem on his hands.

I also think the reason Valencia gets a license to attack the whole time and our left back doesn't is because of Pogba.
Herrera will put in a shift defensively on the right to cover Valencia but Pogba cannot be trusted to do the same on the left

jayo26

J. Marston wrote: »

Those stat comparisons things can be so stupid. There was one on Reddit and Redcafe that made Herrera look like a more effective player than Kante. It's ridiculous.

They can be yep but They can also be useful when someone is using hyperbole.

I put up the pogba vs Kante comparison as bit of a craic but the rest of Pogba stats are none deceptive he has been creating chances and he has been tracking back just hasn't been doing it to world class level.

jayo26

Robson99 wrote: »

I also think the reason Valencia gets a license to attack the whole time and our left back doesn't is because of Pogba.
Herrera will put in a shift defensively on the right to cover Valencia but Pogba cannot be trusted to do the same on the left

Ahh noway stop lol. Sure the weather was terrible today thats pogba fault too.

Did you see blind in the game against Rostov? He bombed down the left and pogba was in midfield. Darmian is a right footed player that contributes fek all going forward its as simple as that if Shaw was on form and in the team he would do a far better job.

Robson99

jayo26 wrote: »

Ahh noway stop lol. Sure the weather was terrible today thats pogba fault too.

Did you see blind in the game against Rostov? He bombed down the left and pogba was in midfield. Darmian is a right footed player that contributes fek all going forward its as simple as that if Shaw was on form and in the team he would do a far better job.

So we are attacking as much down the left as the right when Blind or Rojo are left full????? Now thats lol
Blind was wing back again Rostov and different formation, Apples for Apples

jayo26

Robson99 wrote: »

So we are attacking as much down the left as the right when Blind or Rojo are left full????? Now thats lol

Did I say that? Nope I said in the last game blind attacked down the left very effective and pogba was in the midfield so obviously pogba was not a problem.

If you want to lol like a child off you go but blaming a midfielder because we don't have a natural left back to do a proper job is very laughable.

We laughed at lvg because he set the hole team up to defend now were criticising one of the best young midfielders in the world because we're not defending enough? Even tho we have i think the third best defensive record in the league??

The one big massive problem with united is not defending or pogba its that we are not scoring enough goals as simple as that we have plenty of chances and pogba has created most of them and he has also missed alot of chances to be fair.

Cantona's Collars

The Sunday papers roundup: Chelsea and Arsenal want Lingard.
De Gea has cut off any contact from Madrid and United are hopeful of tying him down to a new deal.
United are in advanced talks to sign Kevin Strootman.
Zlatan has been offered around £15 million a season to join LA Galaxy.

That's your morning United gossip wrapped up folks.

Trigger

zerks wrote: »

De Gea has cut off any contact from Madrid
United are in advanced talks to sign Kevin Strootman..

mewe

astradave wrote: »

That is just superb.

Lithium93_

zerks wrote: »

The Sunday papers roundup: Chelsea and Arsenal want Lingard.
De Gea has cut off any contact from Madrid and United are hopeful of tying him down to a new deal.
United are in advanced talks to sign Kevin Strootman.
Zlatan has been offered around £15 million a season to join LA Galaxy.

That's your morning United gossip wrapped up folks.

Giggsy11

J. Marston wrote: »

Those stat comparisons things can be so stupid. There was one on Reddit and Redcafe that made Herrera look like a more effective player than Kante. It's ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous. It's not even cherry picked stats, Herrera has been superb this season but won't get credit because of league position, which is again because of our attackers.

beno619

Giggsy11 wrote: »

It's not ridiculous. It's not even cherry picked stats, Herrera has been superb this season but won't get credit because of league position, which is again because of our attackers.

The stat comparisons are ridiculous and can be used to suit any argument. Not the fact that Herrera is having a blinder of a season.

Robson99

jayo26 wrote: »

Did I say that? Nope I said in the last game blind attacked down the left very effective and pogba was in the midfield so obviously pogba was not a problem.

If you want to lol like a child off you go but blaming a midfielder because we don't have a natural left back to do a proper job is very laughable.

Lol like a child???. I think it was yourself that started the lol ****e
I hope Pogba works out.. I for one was critical of United for letting him go and delighted we signed him in the summer
I couldn't care whether he cost 9m or 90m. But from watching him all season he has had some good games but also some very poor ones.
If we are to become top dogs in England again and challenge the likes of Barca, Bayer, RM in Europe then one of the so called best players in the world needs to be performing much better than he is this season.

Also whether lads like it or not the defensive side of his game needs to improve

Giggsy11

beno619 wrote: »

The stat comparisons are ridiculous and can be used to suit any argument. Not the fact that Herrera is having a blinder of a season.

It's not. Like I said, if I cherry pick stats that suit a player then yes it's ridiculous. If a player is better at everything then it's not ridiculous to use. What's ridiculous is writing off the stats just because it's not suiting some narrative.

Giggsy11

Giggsy11 wrote: »

It's not. Like I said, if I cherry pick stats that suit a player then yes it's ridiculous. If a player is better at everything then it's not ridiculous to use. What's ridiculous is writing off the stats just because it's not suiting some narrative.

Gonna weigh in on the debate, as I can agree with this somewhat.
Pogba can be infuriating in possession at times but be has been creating chances to his credit.
I'd argue that his current flaw of sometimes overplaying the ball would not be as infuriating if martial, rashford, miki, mata contributed more with chance conversion.

Just a theory but has anyone considered why he tries to take on so much in attack? Could be argued if it ain't Ibra he's giving it too then he will go it alone.

Id like to explain why I mention miki, he's been class but has also been guilty of missing chances this season and a couple of big ones from my memory.

As for martial and even rashford they seem to elude criticism, they both have been terrible in front of goal this season given the amount of games Jose has given them.
And initially that was my biggest concern when Jose signed as manager but proved me wrong.

Giggsy11

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Gonna weigh in on the debate, as I can agree with this somewhat.
Pogba can be infuriating in possession at times but be has been creating chances to his credit.
I'd argue that his current flaw of sometimes overplaying the ball would not be as infuriating if martial, rashford, miki, mata contributed more with chance conversion.

Just a theory but has anyone considered why he tries to take on so much in attack? Could be argued if it ain't Ibra he's giving it too then he will go it alone.

Id like to explain why I mention miki, he's been class but has also been guilty of missing chances this season and a couple of big ones from my memory.

As for martial and even rashford they seem to elude criticism, they both have been terrible in front of goal this season given the amount of games Jose has given them.
And initially that was my biggest concern when Jose signed as manager but proved me wrong.

You sure you quoted the correct post? Because the topic was on Herrera stats.

I agree with you on Pogba, he has created so many chances which our attackers failed to finish and for some reason he gets lot of ****. It's like people expect him to control games like Xavi, play long passes like Scholes, Dribble like Messi, Create chances like Fabregas and finish them off like Ronaldo.

Apart from few games there is nothing wrong with Pogba's performance. He got lot of stick after game against Bournemouth when he created 4 clear cut chances. Because of his missed chances his whole performance was written off.

adox

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Because of his missed chances his whole performance was written off.

You are making that up.

beno619

Giggsy11 wrote: »

It's not. Like I said, if I cherry pick stats that suit a player then yes it's ridiculous. If a player is better at everything then it's not ridiculous to use. What's ridiculous is writing off the stats just because it's not suiting some narrative.

Fair enough, I havnt watched enough of Kante this season to weigh in on that argument.

You believe Herrera has been as good as/better than Kante ?

@giggsy

@giggsy I agree with the sentiment that he is creating goal scoring chances so I understand your point in relation to stats

Also the debate on Pogba is not the biggest issue by far

It's the main attackers and has always been the case this season

Focus is drawn to Pogba because of his price tag but the "criticism" light is shining in the wrong area

There was games where he was out and out poor, like the Liverpool game but that's a different argument in a game which will always be a tight result but for the lesser teams we should be beating instead of drawing against that's on the attackers more so than it should be on Pogba

Those games are the bread and butter of winning leagues

beno619

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Id like to explain why I mention miki, he's been class but has also been guilty of missing chances this season and a couple of big ones from my memory.

As for martial and even rashford they seem to elude criticism, they both have been terrible in front of goal this season given the amount of games Jose has given them.
And initially that was my biggest concern when Jose signed as manager but proved me wrong.

I can only think of Mata missing that open goal at Stoke otherwise his finishing has been excellent as usual.

Martial and Rashford have been on the wing again I cant think of many clear chances they've made a balls off. Having said that Martial needs to contribute more to our general attacking play.

Miki's finishing has been poor but again I feel they were half chances he created for himself.

Zlatan and Pogba have missed the most big big chances clear through on goal and one on one with the keeper.

Giggsy11

adox wrote: »

You are making that up.

No, some of the posts whenever we draw the game are nonsense, it's like people lose their sense when they are so angry and type on internet.

beno619 wrote: »

Fair enough, I havnt watched enough of Kante this season to weigh in on that argument.

You believe Herrera has been as good as/better than Kante ?

I wouldn't say Herrera is better than Kante but there isn't much between them. One is getting plaudits because his team is scoring goals and winning title, other is talked about being replaced when his performances are very good this season.

M!Ck^ wrote: »

@giggsy I agree with the sentiment that he is creating goal scoring chances so I understand your point in relation to stats

Also the debate on Pogba is not the biggest issue by far

It's the main attackers and has always been the case this season

Focus is drawn to Pogba because of his price tag but the "criticism" light is shining in the wrong area

There was games where he was out and out poor, like the Liverpool game but that's a different argument in a game which will always be a tight result but for the lesser teams we should be beating instead of drawing against that's on the attackers more so than it should be on Pogba

Those games are the bread and butter of winning leagues

Yeah, I agree with most of what you said.

beno619

Giggsy11 wrote: »

No, some of the posts whenever we draw the game are nonsense, it's like people lose their sense when they are so angry and type on internet.

The same can be said about posters who have blindly defended his performances this season.


I wouldn't say Herrera is better than Kante but there isn't much between them. One is getting plaudits because his team is scoring goals and winning title, other is talked about being replaced when his performances are very good this season.

Who's talking about replacing Herrera ? I think his contributions this season have been acknowledged here and in the English press. He obviously wont get as much press as a title winning midfielder.

bucketybuck

beno619 wrote: »

I can only think of Mata missing that open goal at Stoke otherwise his finishing has been excellent as usual.

Martial and Rashford have been on the wing again I cant think of many clear chances they've made a balls off. Having said that Martial needs to contribute more to our general attacking play.

Miki's finishing has been poor but again I feel they were half chances he created for himself.

Zlatan and Pogba have missed the most big big chances clear through on goal and one on one with the keeper.

So why is Pogba one on one with the keeper more than Mata, Martial, Rashford and Mikitarian? What I am reading from your post is that those lads are not involved enough, if you can't remember their misses in a season where we have not scored many goals then that reflects poorly on them, I would rather they were missing chances than hiding completely.

These are two issues, Pogba has played poorly and the rest of the attackers aren't doing enough. For me the question now is if we solve both issues with one stone, do we give Pogba total freedom and get rid of those lads up front who don't seem to suit a Pogba system?

deaddonkey15

Giggsy11 wrote: »

No, some of the posts whenever we draw the game are nonsense, it's like people lose their sense when they are so angry and type on internet.

I agree.

S.M.B.

Whole the De Gea rumours are probably nothing it is interesting that I feel losing him would be less detrimental than it would have been on that faithful transfer deadline day.

It's not that our defence is any more solid than it was back then. It just feels like we are slightly less reliant on one or two key players compared to when we were transitioning out of the fergie era.

Al Capwned

de Gea leaving would be nothing only bad for us. There are only one or two keepers in the world that could potentially replace him.

Giggsy11

S.M.B. wrote: »

Whole the De Gea rumours are probably nothing it is interesting that I feel losing him would be less detrimental than it would have been on that faithful transfer deadline day.

It's not that our defence is any more solid than it was back then. It just feels like we are slightly less reliant on one or two key players compared to when we were transitioning out of the fergie era.

Having keeper like De Gea brings lot of confidence to the defenders.

beno619

bucketybuck wrote: »

So why is Pogba one on one with the keeper more than Mata, Martial, Rashford and Mikitarian? What I am reading from your post is that those lads are not involved enough, if you can't remember their misses in a season where we have not scored many goals then that reflects poorly on them, I would rather they were missing chances than hiding completely.

These are two issues, Pogba has played poorly and the rest of the attackers aren't doing enough. For me the question now is if we solve both issues with one stone, do we give Pogba total freedom and get rid of those lads up front who don't seem to suit a Pogba system?

I think Mata's contribution as far as goals go is fine.
Martial obviously needs to improve.
Rashers has done okay im not sure he's a winger though.
I havnt seen enough of Miki at Dortmund but id image its an anomaly his finishing has been dodge at times ?

Id be against binning everyone based on what I've seen from Pogba so far if he starts to fit his billing then it would be hard to argue against it.

The majority of players have adapted to Jose's system why cant Pogba ?

Lord TSC

I adore De Gea but I definitely think we'd be in a better position this year if we lost him than previous. He's probably my favorite player at the moment, and I want him there for a decade to come, but if we lost him, I don't think the sense of utter dread would be the same. We've not been half as reliant on him this season. We've gone from two or three world class saves a game to 1 every few games.

S.M.B.

Lord TSC wrote: »

I adore De Gea but I definitely think we'd be in a better position this year if we lost him than previous. He's probably my favorite player at the moment, and I want him there for a decade to come, but if we lost him, I don't think the sense of utter dread would be the same. We've not been half as reliant on him this season. We've gone from two or three world class saves a game to 1 every few games.

Yeah, this is exactly what I was talking about.

The unfortunate reality is that he will be the one to decide whether he stays at united long term or whether he goes to Spain. It's the Ronaldo saga all over again.

I just feel like we could cope with his departure a little more now then we would have a few seasons ago. It feels like we've stabilised things and we can move forward from there.

It would still be a massive loss so I'm not trying to downplay his skills as a keeper.