Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2017

TheDoc

adox wrote: »

He deserved to be sent off he was idiotic making that challenge.

He should be apologising to the rag of his players in that dressing room.

That can easily be spun two ways. Whatever about Hazard getting hit hard by Jones (it's football, it happens) the ref was just petulant in my view giving a red card to Hererra. Oliver has really turned into a bogey referee for us big time. Minimal contact, Hazard clearly took a fall and I thought it was a pretty embarrassing incident for the ref.

It doesn't matter that Hererra was booked, it doesn't matter that there was consistent fouling on HAzard for a period. For a ref to send a player off in that instance is a shocking decision.

When you then see literally moments later Cahill take down Rashford as he skint him AND NOT GET BOOKED. Refereeing has been generally piss poor this season and I think I'm focusing on it so much I see just how bad it is. That Barca result seemed to gloss over a pretty terrible referee performance also.

The sooner video technology comes in and the power is taken away from those in the middle totally out of their depth the better.

Any referee worth their salt there would have blown up for the foul. Spoke to Herrera and Smalling again and said "this is literally it lads, no more". Such a token gesture for refs to even speak to Captains in football, as there is clearly nothing that actually productively happens from it.

Mantis Toboggan

Kante is twice the player Pogba is.

What did Kante cost 30 million?

90 million for Pogba?? Whoever sanctioned that deal needs to be sacked.

Mitch Connor

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Kante is twice the player Pogba is.

What did Kante cost 30 million?

90 million for Pogba?? Whoever sanctioned that deal needs to be sacked.

yeah, if only Pogba had a 30million release fee like Kante.

StringerBell

It was pointed out that Pogba on his own was not going to be enough, a good sitting midfielder who is defensively very disciplined and can cover for his defensive deficiencies is needed to get the best out of him. Nothing this season has shown any of that to be incorrect, hopefully this is addressed over the summer and he begins to show his very best in the coming years. If not it could turn a little sour pretty quickly due to the fee and brand. He is an easy target but its on him to put in the work to shut the doubters up.

Overall I am very happy to have him back at the club and in no way would I be writing him off but I will absolutely point out where I think he could have done better.

Leroy42

TheDoc wrote: »

That can easily be spun two ways. Whatever about Hazard getting hit hard by Jones (it's football, it happens) the ref was just petulant in my view giving a red card to Hererra. Oliver has really turned into a bogey referee for us big time. Minimal contact, Hazard clearly took a fall and I thought it was a pretty embarrassing incident for the ref.

It doesn't matter that Hererra was booked, it doesn't matter that there was consistent fouling on HAzard for a period. For a ref to send a player off in that instance is a shocking decision.

When you then see literally moments later Cahill take down Rashford as he skint him AND NOT GET BOOKED. Refereeing has been generally piss poor this season and I think I'm focusing on it so much I see just how bad it is. That Barca result seemed to gloss over a pretty terrible referee performance also.

The sooner video technology comes in and the power is taken away from those in the middle totally out of their depth the better.

Any referee worth their salt there would have blown up for the foul. Spoke to Herrera and Smalling again and said "this is literally it lads, no more". Such a token gesture for refs to even speak to Captains in football, as there is clearly nothing that actually productively happens from it.

But the ref had done just that. He clearly gave Smalling a clear message that enough was enough. But you then want him to give them one more chance?

The yellow was harsh in the context of the foul itself, but Herrera knew what was going on, should have just let him go. This instance the ref done exactly what was required.

Up to that point (30 mins or so) Hazzard was fouled 5 times, The next 60 minutes he was fouled twice. Pity it took the red to get it into Utd's head but that is their fault not the refs.

StringerBell

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Kante is twice the player Pogba is.

What did Kante cost 30 million?

90 million for Pogba?? Whoever sanctioned that deal needs to be sacked.

Puerile nonsense.

adox

TheDoc wrote: »

Any referee worth their salt there would have blown up for the foul. Spoke to Herrera and Smalling again and said "this is literally it lads, no more". Such a token gesture for refs to even speak to Captains in football, as there is clearly nothing that actually productively happens from it.

Like he had already done? So you want him so say it twice before booking a player?

It was pure idiocy from Herrera. An experienced player who should have known better than o put himself in that position.

Giggsy11

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Kante is twice the player Pogba is.

What did Kante cost 30 million?

90 million for Pogba?? Whoever sanctioned that deal needs to be sacked.

Yeah sure.

Overrating of Kante continues.

Mitch Connor

i greatly dislike the practice of booking players for an accumulation of fouls or on the basis of fouls by other players.

A tackle should be booked if the foul was worthy of a booking, there should be no other factors imo.

Mantis Toboggan

Is anybody thinks that Pogba has been better than Kante this season needs to come out from under that rock.

RobertKK

Kante is a far more defensive player, Pogba is an offensive player.

I have no concerns about Pogba, he needs to practice his finishing when shooting at goal, but stick a top quality CDM behind him and players who can finish a chance he creates and people will be raving again.

United needed both Kante and Pogba last summer, I was disappointed we only got one and not the two.

StringerBell

Herrera would not have been expecting to get the line for that challenge, but it doesn't excuse it. Why give the referee an opportunity to make his mark like that at all? He had literally just pointed out to the players he had enough of the systematic fouling of Hazard all over the pitch and Herrera made a challenge that had no chance of getting the ball, in an area Hazard was not going to hurt us from, and with a player who is going to fling himself to the ground with the slightest touch,the crowd are up, the blood is up, the red card was out before Hazard even rolled I'd say. It was instant and though you can call it harsh maybe given the actual challenge, the blame lies with Herrera.

bucketybuck

TheDoc wrote: »

Spoke to Herrera and Smalling again and said "this is literally it lads, no more".

What, again? Speak to the captain like he just had done? And say pretty please this time? "This time I really, really mean it!"

The ref speaks to the captain for one reason, for him to make his teammates aware that any more infringements will have repercussions. Its a final warning and once that happens any professional with half a brain should know whats coming and to play smart for the next 5/10 minutes.

Yet right after Jones fouled Hazard and the ref talked to the captain, our man on a yellow card does the dumbest thing possible and leaves a leg in on Hazard. There isn't a ref in the country going to let that slide.

Pickpocket

TheDoc wrote: »

Any referee worth their salt there would have blown up for the foul. Spoke to Herrera and Smalling again and said "this is literally it lads, no more".

That's exactly what he done. How many last chances do you think United should get?

Trigger

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Kante is twice the player Pogba is.

What did Kante cost 30 million?

90 million for Pogba?? Whoever sanctioned that deal needs to be sacked.

Ah come on Tyson, your losing it a bit these days, you need to just come out and blame Woodward like the good aul days

bucketybuck

Mitch Connor wrote: »

i greatly dislike the practice of booking players for an accumulation of fouls or on the basis of fouls by other players.

A tackle should be booked if the foul was worthy of a booking, there should be no other factors imo.

No, because if that were the case you would see systematic fouling from both teams, spreading the cards among the team in order to nullify dangerous players.

We want to protect creative players and allowing the ref to use his judgement in these cases is a good thing.

More to the point, the reality is that a ref will find a scapegoat for a teams persistent fouling and every player should know that damn well.

beno619

TheDoc wrote: »

This is such nonsensical stuff.

So simple answer, we did with Pogba. He is just so obviously a superior talent and player that as time goes on will become so much more then Kante. I've great admiration and respect for Kante, but I'm pretty confident that we will end up with a far superior player.

There's nothing guaranteed.

Talent only gets you so far without a decent head and work ethic.

Mitch Connor

bucketybuck wrote: »

No, because if that were the case you would see systematic fouling from both teams, spreading the cards among the team in order to nullify dangerous players.

We want to protect creative players and allowing the ref to use his judgement in these cases is a good thing.

More to the point, the reality is that a ref will find a scapegoat for a teams persistent fouling and every player should know that damn well.

I disagree.

Any foul the ref deems to be deliberate should be worthy of a yellow card.

If a player is competing the ball and simply (and fairly) lose out. No card. If the player competes for the ball and the attacker is simply too quick... No card, imo.

If the player cynically or deliberately fouls the opponent, yellow card.

Either a foul is worthy of a card or it isn't, imo. Even if it is the first foul in the match, if it is worthy of a card it gets it.

Giggsy11

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Is anybody thinks that Pogba has been better than Kante this season needs to come out from under that rock.

Anyone said this or you are assuming?

Pickpocket

Mitch Connor wrote: »

i greatly dislike the practice of booking players for an accumulation of fouls or on the basis of fouls by other players.

A tackle should be booked if the foul was worthy of a booking, there should be no other factors imo.

The situation called for intelligent thinking. Herrera was on a yellow and the team had just received a warning via the captain. It was time to cool down. If he was under instruction from Jose to hassle Hazard then he may have felt a need to keep pushing it, but the fact that he committed a foul straight away makes it his own fault. He's nobody to blame but himself.

We were crying out for Mkhitaryan throughout the game, especially in the dying minutes when there was an equaliser waiting to be nicked, but he was sitting on the sidelines because of Herrera's impulsiveness and stupidity.

TheDoc

adox wrote: »

Ah good man Rojo. That looks like a stamp. :rolleyes:

Never a first team player for me despite playing well enough tonight while walking a very thin line(that's before seeing the stamp).

Best CB at the club this season in my view. Been one of the real positive from the Jose reign thus far.

TheDoc

adox wrote: »

Like he had already done? So you want him so say it twice before booking a player?

It was pure idiocy from Herrera. An experienced player who should have known better than o put himself in that position.

Whatever about booking the next tackle for a player not currently on one, but to send a player of in that instance, for a innocuous foul, where the opposing player has clearly taken it softly, is just petulance from the ref.

We are talking less than two minutes later Cahill does not get booked for a more cynical foul on Rashford.

Sorry but if midfielders can't tackle then pack up the game. Not every foul is a booking and yeah Hazard was being focused and targeted, as I bloody well expect him to be, but he hardly got thumped by Hererra. It was a nothing foul on the halfway line and sorry I just thought it was more poor refereeing from Oliver who has nosedived from being a ref with potential to buying into his own hype the last two seasons.

PhlegmyMoses

The problem with what Oliver did last night is that we won't see similar again for a long time. I remember games last season when Martial got kicked up and down the pitch and no such edict came from the refs. All fans will have examples.

I also think that the ref should be indicating to the captain and giving him time to get it round to the team. No point speaking to just the captain, right before an incoming free kick where he has to run back to get in position before he gets a chance to spread the word.

RobertKK

I think there are positives from last night's game, it was not a 4-0 drubbing like last October. United have toughened up. Yes it created problems with the sending off, Rojo facing a possible ban, but for 10 men playing most of the game, a 1-0 defeat was not bad.
I wanted us to progress, bu it was 3rd on my list of priorities for United, with both PL and EL being close to equal 1st in importance given a CL spot is at stake, and fixture congestion is still a problem.

I think it as more of a game out of the way, and the real priority this weeks is not messing up against Rostov before we get back to PL games.

bangkok

beno619 wrote: »

There's nothing guaranteed.

Talent only gets you so far without a decent head and work ethic.

Dont think you can doubt his work rate. He covers every blade of grass on the pitch

bucketybuck

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I also think that the ref should be indicating to the captain and giving him time to get it round to the team. No point speaking to just the captain, right before an incoming free kick where he has to run back to get in position before he gets a chance to spread the word.

Spread the word? I was watching on a laptop hundreds of miles away and I knew what the deal was after Jones' foul and Smalling being called over, if Herrera needed a signed memo for him to get the message then he is dumber than I thought.

PhlegmyMoses

bangkok wrote: »

Dont think you can doubt his work rate. He covers every blade of grass on the pitch

Yeah, I've seen a few comments that he doesn't look bothered and that he is work shy. I don't think that this is true at all. He has been crap recently, but for me, if anything, he seems to be trying too hard to make a difference

Trigger

I really do believe that the style in which Pogba runs/walks makes him look lazy.. he has been poor and I think it's a confidence issue and that's why Jose trying to back him up in public

PhlegmyMoses

bucketybuck wrote: »

Spread the word? I was watching on a laptop hundreds of miles away and I knew what the deal was after Jones' foul and Smalling being called over, if Herrera needed a signed memo for him to get the message then he is dumber than I thought.

Yes, you're right. They're all just dumb and you, the wily old fox, got the message easily. Must be it.

Personally when I watched it, I thought it was a warning for a singular player. Next one and you're in the book. It wasn't until the BT commentator suggested that Herrera's card was for a team foul that I understand stood why it had happened. Even then, the commentators weren't 100%. We're all probably just dumb though.

The only sport I watch where a ref calls a captain over to say next foul from anyone is a card is in rugby. And in every case, they're given time to get this around the team. Can't see how this could be argued really, seems entirely reasonable, otherwise your chat with the captain is pointless.

beno619

bangkok wrote: »

Dont think you can doubt his work rate. He covers every blade of grass on the pitch

1) Work ethic
2) He doesnt based on his performances this season.

bangkok

beno619 wrote: »

1) Work ethic
2) He doesnt based on his performances this season.

But yet he runs more than any other united player per game. Backed up by stats to prove it

bucketybuck

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Yes, you're right. They're all just dumb and you, the wily old fox, got the message easily. Must be it.

I'm not old.

Minderbinder

Nuts102 wrote: »

He is a better player than Pogba and gives everything on the pitch.

Compare to Pogba who throws his hands in the air when he loses the ball and half arses tracking back and smiling after losing.

Herrera can be reckless at times but i will take that any day over someone who downs tools when things are not going good.

I would say Herrera's body language is better than Pogba and more likely to adorn him to fans. Is he really a better player? I don't think so.

I think he came to United a different player than what he is today, and having realized his technical ability was not good enough to play in an advanced role and his defensive ability was not good enough to play in the Carrick role, he adapted and turned into the cynical player you see now.

I still think he is a good squad player in some ways similar to Darren Fletcher. And this is not a defence of Pogba by the way. I simply stated that last night, Herrera was worse.

I've stopped worrying about Pogba because I think he was misjudged to begin with. He is never going to be the player some people here want him to be. He won't control games. He has a lot of magic though and I would think he has created more chances than anyone for us this season and has a decent goal return. He won't control a game though. It's time to forget about that idea. And that's why embarrassing as it is we need to go on another spending spree in the summer.

TheDoc

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The problem with what Oliver did last night is that we won't see similar again for a long time. I remember games last season when Martial got kicked up and down the pitch and no such edict came from the refs. All fans will have examples.

I also think that the ref should be indicating to the captain and giving him time to get it round to the team. No point speaking to just the captain, right before an incoming free kick where he has to run back to get in position before he gets a chance to spread the word.

Yeah that's my point. Sorry it's bollox saying Smalling got told, it was literally 10 seconds later he whipped out a red card.

And there is clearly no real protocol there between referees and captains. Some referees do it, others don't. Some have clear calm dialogue, others just ignore conversations and do the "go away" ****e.

beno619

Minderbinder wrote: »

I would say Herrera's body language is better than Pogba and more likely to adorn him to fans. Is he really a better player? I don't think so.

Herrera has consistently performed to a high standard this season where else Pogba has not.

I would be more concerned if we lost Herrera for 3 games than Pogba.

beno619

bangkok wrote: »

But yet he runs more than any other united player per game. Backed up by stats to prove it

Please provide the stats.

Im sure he busts a gut to get forward, but he doesn't do enough defensively for me.

bangkok

beno619 wrote: »

Please provide the stats.

Im sure he busts a gut to get forward, but he doesn't do enough defensively for me.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/01/19/20-best-premier-league-midfielders-season-far/paul-pogba-man-utd/

Zidane wasnt good defensively, neither is iniesta or david silva. Why would you want one of your best attackers to be good defensively?!

the whole year inn

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Yes, you're right. They're all just dumb and you, the wily old fox, got the message easily. Must be it.

Personally when I watched it, I thought it was a warning for a singular player. Next one and you're in the book. It wasn't until the BT commentator suggested that Herrera's card was for a team foul that I understand stood why it had happened. Even then, the commentators weren't 100%. We're all probably just dumb though.

The only sport I watch where a ref calls a captain over to say next foul from anyone is a card is in rugby. And in every case, they're given time to get this around the team. Can't see how this could be argued really, seems entirely reasonable, otherwise your chat with the captain is pointless.

So the ref supposed to wait while every player gets told what he said to the captain. If the team cannot read the situation that's there fault. At the end of the day it was a foul and it's the refs job to display the card. Not sure why you want to bring in a completely different sport to prove your point,but you seem hell bent sure that your right,your not.

Minderbinder

beno619 wrote: »

Herrera has consistently performed to a high standard this season where else Pogba has not.

I would be more concerned if we lost Herrera for 3 games than Pogba.

Herrera has been consistent. But maybe he is being judged on Herrera standards and Pogba is being judged to a much higher standard. He is infuriating at times. I've been as angry as anyone with Pogba after some of the games.

But I think sometimes it's like when you read the newspaper ratings of players after a 1-1 draw with Burnley. All the Burnley lads will be getting 8's and 9's while United players will get 6's and 7's. They are being judged against expectations.

I still firmly believe Pogba is a better player than Herrera, even this season which has arguably been Herrera's best and Pogba's worst.

PhlegmyMoses

the whole year inn wrote: »

So the ref supposed to wait while every player gets told what he said to the captain. If the team cannot read the situation that's there fault. At the end of the day it was a foul and it's the refs job to display the card. Not sure why you want to bring in a completely different sport to prove your point,but you seem hell bent sure that your right,your not.

Pretty much.

jayo26

The_Kew_Tour

No matter how bad things are thank **** I dont support Chelsea.

Their support is joke shop.

Trigger

the whole year inn wrote: »

So the ref supposed to wait while every player gets told what he said to the captain. If the team cannot read the situation that's there fault. At the end of the day it was a foul and it's the refs job to display the card. Not sure why you want to bring in a completely different sport to prove your point,but you seem hell bent sure that your right,your not.

Fair enough if he brought the captain over on his own, but he brought over Jones as well which kind of implied that he was warning Jones over persistent fouling.

I personally thought that Herrera wasn't minding the chat between the two and was watching the ball to see if the quick free was taken.. the free was taken about 2 seconds after Oliver finished talking to Smalling and Jones.. that's not enough time to even shout out a warning. It was poorly done by the official..

But... Herrera should have been more mindful sticking his leg in while on a yellow card. While on the yellow he needs to be certain that he is going to win the ball before committing..

secman

Adamocovic wrote: »

After all the talk of us having little to no chance of winning yesterday to play the majority of the game with 10 men and come that close is a big credit.

Chelsea looked to be getting into it more and more before the red card but have to say the defending and goalkeeping was very good at times, bar some blips here or there. Was sure Rashford was going to tuck away his chance.
The game was very feisty, good for the atmosphere but you could see us becoming frustrated as the game went on. Pogba seems to be the player everyones talking about. He had a poor game alright, was overrun in the midfield and was disposed far too easily.
Saying that, I think some people are jumping on him a bit too much in my eyes. I was quite vocal in my opinions about him before he came back. I didn't want him back, especially not at that price, but I think many responded that we had the money and it wasn't coming out of my pocket so why should I care, which is a fair reply.

I don't think Pogba has been as "awful" as some people make out. He had a bad game yesterday true, being overrun in the midfield at 10 men by the best team in England at the moment doesn't help. He's had a decent season so far, found himself a couple of goals, some assists and man of the match performances, but the problem is with the price tag surrounding him there is so much expectations around him being the game changer player we wanted, something he hasn't really been.

I know people argue that at that price we should be expecting someone who individually can make the difference between a draw and a win, I was in that group of people back in summer, but to be fair many warned back in summer not to fall into that thinking, and that the price was a result of modern football, agents, a team not wanting to sell, and a team willing to spend big.

Pogba is a good player that has been hampered by the price tag around him in my eyes.
It's also his birthday tomorrow, so I expect many good happy birthday posts

The only thing to change will be " he's only 24 "

Leroy42

astradave wrote: »

I personally thought that Herrera wasn't minding the chat between the two and was watching the ball to see if the quick free was taken.. the free was taken about 2 seconds after Oliver finished talking to Smalling and Jones.. that's not enough time to even shout out a warning. It was poorly done by the official..

Totally agree on this bit. If the ref is going to take the time (correctly IMO) to call Smalling over to let him know the situation and possible ramifications, then surely he has to let Smalling have time to explain it to the team. Even 20 secs. instead he pulls two UTd players across and then allows Chelsea to take a quick free, Jones and Smalling only just getting back in position.

astradave wrote: »

But... Herrera should have been more mindful sticking his leg in while on a yellow card. While on the yellow he needs to be certain that he is going to win the ball before committing..

And that is the key point. Herrera had no need to do it and gave the ref a clear opportunity to give the card

the whole year inn

astradave wrote: »

Fair enough if he brought the captain over on his own, but he brought over Jones as well which kind of implied that he was warning Jones over persistent fouling.

I personally thought that Herrera wasn't minding the chat between the two and was watching the ball to see if the quick free was taken.. the free was taken about 2 seconds after Oliver finished talking to Smalling and Jones.. that's not enough time to even shout out a warning. It was poorly done by the official..

But... Herrera should have been more mindful sticking his leg in while on a yellow card. While on the yellow he needs to be certain that he is going to win the ball before committing..

It was stupid by Herrara, does the captain really have to tell the players if you foul you will get a card . if you foul like he did its a card, he doesn't need to be told.

TheDoc

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

No matter how bad things are thank **** I dont support Chelsea.

Their support is joke shop.

I've really become aware of our away support in the last few years. Something if I'm honest I never really took notice of in terms of "taking pride" from, as I guess I did for a large time just assume all stadium fans were tribal and blah blah blah

But I can hand on heart say, and will happily be slagged for it, take immense pride from our away fans who are just an incredible representation time after time. The noise they made last night was incredible, that they consistently out sing and overshadow home supports in massively large multiples, it really is a great part of our makeup.

Obviously might be oblivious to any "messing" that our fans either do or are notorious for, but I definitely don't ever hear about it or read it. And whatever about the away support being the "real hardcore" fanbase, have to say it looks pretty inclusive when you see the various types of fan there in regards to age,sex or race.

StringerBell

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

No matter how bad things are thank **** I dont support Chelsea.

Their support is joke shop.

Must stick in a lot of their craw's that Judas is number 1 I suppose.

Could they not have come up with a more appropriate moniker? Judas is certainly not the right one to use.

beno619

bangkok wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/01/19/20-best-premier-league-midfielders-season-far/paul-pogba-man-utd/

Zidane wasnt good defensively, neither is iniesta or david silva. Why would you want one of your best attackers to be good defensively?!

Bec he's playing in a position that requires defensive contributions.

When your down to 10 men everyone has to put in a shift, Rashford did.

In all honestly Pogba didnt look like have gave a toss, cant say the same for anyone else.

bangkok

beno619 wrote: »

Bec he's playing in a position that requires defensive contributions.

When your down to 10 men everyone has to put in a shift, Rashford did.

In all honestly Pogba didnt look like have gave a toss, cant say the same for anyone else.

But mourinho took off mkhitarayan, brought on fellaini and pushed pogba even higher up the pitch. Do you want him to go against managers orders?