Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2017

Korat

It is a bit worrying the squad is getting smaller coming into the busiest run of games I can remember. It's even worse than the same period in 1992 I think and that cost us the title.

TheDoc

I think though that the critique of the team and the manager is fair. We are in a weird place at the moment, that I see coming into more mainstream discussion this morning listening to my podcasts. While the "feel good factor" is definitely there with Mourinho and this squad, when you look at the cold hard facts and state of things, it hasn't gotten any better. We can kid ourselves that it has, but really, it hasn't. Still plenty to play for, but this season can easily swing between descriptions like disaster, disappointing, poor, meh, ok. It won't be excellent or it won't be great.

I don't think there is any reason for panic. I trust Jose will get the backing he needs in the summer to improve the squad, and next season I'd be hoping for much better. I'm expecting a title tilt at a minimum.

But I don't think we can kid ourselves with this season, thus far. Some high points, a trophy, but also some low points, some poor results and some issues in our squad.

spiralism wrote: »

Lot of people carrying on here like we just lost yesterday.. End of the day we played our 4th game in 10 days, with three away and one in ****ing Russia.

I don't understand why this is an excuse now, when it wasn't for the consecutive years Sir Alex had us in the CL and going deep in most of the domestic cups.
I'm sorry but this is an excuse. SURE the fixture list is rough and could have been better, but it's still an excuse I don't accept. He is paid big bucks to manage a squad. That means managing a workload, managing players workloads and putting in a regime during the week to keep players optimum.
If you want to be competing for the big trophies, if you want to be a big club, you just manage it. You get over it. Whatever about having a whinge or a moan here or there to mask up a bad result, but this consistent moaning from Jose just attracts the failings on his part in all of this.

Of course we were going to sit back with a two goal lead. Only for Smalling ****ing up we'd have got out of there with a three goal win. That's in a ground we've struggled in quite often over the years and in a game that was do or die for them.

I don't think "of course" is as obvious as you make out. We were roasting them for pace, roasting them. Rashford was clearly flagging and tiring, as was Lingaard to an extent but seemed ok. Putting Martial up front and then Mhikitaryian in behind would have left the threat of the counter there, that we were slicing through all game.
Instead he went to a bat**** mental formation and tactic, that played DIRECTLY into Boro's hands, the literal one good thing they can do, whip in good deliveries for big strikers to win, Mourinho just willingly let that happen. Sorry that was poor. Whatever about Smallings mistake, it was borught on by what was a poor tactical change.
The sort of tactical change that has cost us this season in dropping some points that I thought the manager snapped out of, but I guess he will just revert to type in times of strife.

This is what you get with Mourinho anyways and i totally see the sense in sitting back and protecting what you have with a knackered squad missing several players.

Maybe managed a little better and players wouldn't be so tired. But also, Lingaard, Carrick, Fellaini, Rashford and Young should all have been fresh. But with the tactic being deployed involving Carrick and Fellaini basically chasing everything and being outnumbered, to Rashford and Lingaard running them ragged, surely it was obvious changes would be required there, not to just load the defence.

Especially with a two goal lead against a goal starved side. Let's be honest, Boro didn't really threaten much after the goal either, we just got edgy after how many of our games went that way earlier in the year.

Yeah, edgy after Jose invited pressure onto our team, our "tired" team where focus slips and we conceeded stupid goals dropping points. That Boro got a little better in the second half is fine, but this is a poor team. A team that whatever about it being a "tough place to go" we havn't gone in YEARs and they are a shadow of their former selves. This is a team that as you say, is shot for goals, worse then us in terms of goals scored, and yet we seemed to give them every opportunity to try score in the one way they can.

I suspect Mourinho knows exactly what he's doing seeing out premier league games.

Yes he is a world class manager, but like every manager, like Ferguson, he still makes silly mistakes or just mistakes.

There's also an element to it imo that he's trying to toughen this squad up and give them some belief that they can see out games. This whole mental frailty we've displayed at times this season has got to stop, so shutting up shop with a lead a few times successfully is good for them as a unit

Not buying for a second this was the intention. This is people giving managers much more credit and assuming them to be much more clever then they actually are.

End of the day, we have the second best defence in the league after Chelsea and Spurs who are joint first with 21 goals each conceded. Both play back 3 systems, with Spurs in particular having far more talent in their defence.

Last year we had the joint best defence in the league. Van Gaal laid the foundations for shoring up a **** defence inherited from Moyes and Mourinho has done fine. Not much better, not any worse. Some players have come on better under him, while others regressed. But he hasn't done any wonders with our defence.

If you said to anyone here back in August that we'd be at the start of April having leaked only 23 goals in the league playing much more attacking football than before and starting Jones, Valencia, Smalling and Rojo game in game out, you'd be laughed at.

I don't think you would. The players you named, as the same that Van Gaal used to set the defensive benchmark the team did last year, and it was probably obvious the next part of his "plan" was gettnig the attack working and firing, as he outlined many times self. But in August as you say (and look I'm being pedantic here on timeline) we had a new Manager, Zlatan, Mhikitarian and Pogba. That is a boat load of goals and creativity coming into the side where I would have hoped Martial, Rashford and Depay would all kick on lovely.

And yet what has happened, is we have a team that defensively is still the same, offensively is actually probably worse (I havn't done a comparison, but we are probably the same if not worse in terms of goals scored and chances taken then under Van Gaal)

What we have now is hope. We have "the feeling" that it's more exciting and more entertaining. And look it is, dont get me wrong. But I'm not getting carried away. This team isn't operating at the level it should, this team is for me, a bit of an embarrassment with it's goal related stats for the firepower we have and the cost of the squad, and this lack of cutting edge has bit us in the arse all season leaving us with tons of "what ifs".

So no real cause of major concern, but there are concerns. Concerns that people would have echoed upon Joses arrival, does he actually know how to work with flair/creative players, does he have a clue how to organise an attack, or does he just let them off and do their thing. And what does he do, when that is not working.

Martial has regressed at an alarming rate, Rashford I'm patient with and no issues there, he is a young kid. Mhyikitarian I hope next season makes up for what was a mess this term. Hopefully a more settled Pogba brings his more creative knack that he clearly has.

The team needs to score more goals, it needs to absolutely murder teams like they should (the amount of chances we can miss in a game is alarming) and it needs to put some proper fear into opposing teams. Whatever about competing in the big games, from 6th-20th is where you win or lose the league, its the bread and butter stuff.

And we can point fingers and analyse tons of different points as its never just "one thing" but a mjor contributing factor is this teams inability to convert chances and score goals. And as it has continued, it's evident the manager has been unsuccessful in terms of resolving it. So everyone is culpable, and its something that needs addressing next season.

Be it a new striker to put pressure on, and maybe rotate with Zlatan or even be our new #1, or some new wide players that will provide actual goals. Lots of goals.

Or some work or change happening with existing players. We have goals in these players. Rashford, Martial, Mata, Mhiki, Hererra, Pogba, Fellaini, Lingaard. These are players that can score goals and should be chipping in much much more. Only Mata on that list has hit double figures this season?

That is absolutely piss poor considering the amount of chances we are creating in games. Piss poor.

TheDoc

Giggsy11 wrote: »

I loved when we signed Schweinsteiger but sort of glad Jose is ruthless when it comes to clear out. We will end up with small but quality squad. With Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin, Depay and Rooney (will be gone in the summer) we have saved around 640K in wages, that 34 million. 640K on the players we barely used.

Should have got more chances this season but didn't. Hopefully he has few years left in tank and performs well in MLS.

Also that surely means Carrick will get extension? As of now we have Carrick, Herrera, Pobga, Fellaini as our midfielders.

And knowing that is what he does, its no shock to anyone, he can't keep moaning about tiredness and fixture congestion and nonsense like that. It's a problem of his own making, so he needs to own that ****.

No one is going to flip out if he just out rightly said "Premier League and Champions league is our focus this season, we will have a go at the Fa Cup, but the league cup won't be on my radar" Then expectations could be aligned. No one would go mental of going out, or fielding a weak team. He wouldn't need excuses. Fans don't actually believe we should compete to win every trophy in this day and age right? So maybe a bit of maturity from all sides, and he stop all the bluster.

As regards Carrick, I'd be shocked if the first target on his transfer shopping list isn't a DM, of a very specific profile. And it's a profile that is opposite to Carrick.

I don't hold personal ill will against the fella, just as a player and his continuation in the team. Not good enough any longer for what this team wants to achieve.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

TheDoc wrote: »

I think though that the critique of the team and the manager is fair. We are in a weird place at the moment, that I see coming into more mainstream discussion this morning listening to my podcasts. While the "feel good factor" is definitely there with Mourinho and this squad, when you look at the cold hard facts and state of things, it hasn't gotten any better. We can kid ourselves that it has, but really, it hasn't. Still plenty to play for, but this season can easily swing between descriptions like disaster, disappointing, poor, meh, ok. It won't be excellent or it won't be great.

I don't think there is any reason for panic. I trust Jose will get the backing he needs in the summer to improve the squad, and next season I'd be hoping for much better. I'm expecting a title tilt at a minimum.

But I don't think we can kid ourselves with this season, thus far. Some high points, a trophy, but also some low points, some poor results and some issues in our squad.


I don't understand why this is an excuse now, when it wasn't for the consecutive years Sir Alex had us in the CL and going deep in most of the domestic cups.
I'm sorry but this is an excuse. SURE the fixture list is rough and could have been better, but it's still an excuse I don't accept. He is paid big bucks to manage a squad. That means managing a workload, managing players workloads and putting in a regime during the week to keep players optimum.
If you want to be competing for the big trophies, if you want to be a big club, you just manage it. You get over it. Whatever about having a whinge or a moan here or there to mask up a bad result, but this consistent moaning from Jose just attracts the failings on his part in all of this.


I don't think "of course" is as obvious as you make out. We were roasting them for pace, roasting them. Rashford was clearly flagging and tiring, as was Lingaard to an extent but seemed ok. Putting Martial up front and then Mhikitaryian in behind would have left the threat of the counter there, that we were slicing through all game.
Instead he went to a bat**** mental formation and tactic, that played DIRECTLY into Boro's hands, the literal one good thing they can do, whip in good deliveries for big strikers to win, Mourinho just willingly let that happen. Sorry that was poor. Whatever about Smallings mistake, it was borught on by what was a poor tactical change.
The sort of tactical change that has cost us this season in dropping some points that I thought the manager snapped out of, but I guess he will just revert to type in times of strife.


Maybe managed a little better and players wouldn't be so tired. But also, Lingaard, Carrick, Fellaini, Rashford and Young should all have been fresh. But with the tactic being deployed involving Carrick and Fellaini basically chasing everything and being outnumbered, to Rashford and Lingaard running them ragged, surely it was obvious changes would be required there, not to just load the defence.


Yeah, edgy after Jose invited pressure onto our team, our "tired" team where focus slips and we conceeded stupid goals dropping points. That Boro got a little better in the second half is fine, but this is a poor team. A team that whatever about it being a "tough place to go" we havn't gone in YEARs and they are a shadow of their former selves. This is a team that as you say, is shot for goals, worse then us in terms of goals scored, and yet we seemed to give them every opportunity to try score in the one way they can.


Yes he is a world class manager, but like every manager, like Ferguson, he still makes silly mistakes or just mistakes.


Not buying for a second this was the intention. This is people giving managers much more credit and assuming them to be much more clever then they actually are.


Last year we had the joint best defence in the league. Van Gaal laid the foundations for shoring up a **** defence inherited from Moyes and Mourinho has done fine. Not much better, not any worse. Some players have come on better under him, while others regressed. But he hasn't done any wonders with our defence.


I don't think you would. The players you named, as the same that Van Gaal used to set the defensive benchmark the team did last year, and it was probably obvious the next part of his "plan" was gettnig the attack working and firing, as he outlined many times self. But in August as you say (and look I'm being pedantic here on timeline) we had a new Manager, Zlatan, Mhikitarian and Pogba. That is a boat load of goals and creativity coming into the side where I would have hoped Martial, Rashford and Depay would all kick on lovely.

And yet what has happened, is we have a team that defensively is still the same, offensively is actually probably worse (I havn't done a comparison, but we are probably the same if not worse in terms of goals scored and chances taken then under Van Gaal)

What we have now is hope. We have "the feeling" that it's more exciting and more entertaining. And look it is, dont get me wrong. But I'm not getting carried away. This team isn't operating at the level it should, this team is for me, a bit of an embarrassment with it's goal related stats for the firepower we have and the cost of the squad, and this lack of cutting edge has bit us in the arse all season leaving us with tons of "what ifs".

So no real cause of major concern, but there are concerns. Concerns that people would have echoed upon Joses arrival, does he actually know how to work with flair/creative players, does he have a clue how to organise an attack, or does he just let them off and do their thing. And what does he do, when that is not working.

Martial has regressed at an alarming rate, Rashford I'm patient with and no issues there, he is a young kid. Mhyikitarian I hope next season makes up for what was a mess this term. Hopefully a more settled Pogba brings his more creative knack that he clearly has.

The team needs to score more goals, it needs to absolutely murder teams like they should (the amount of chances we can miss in a game is alarming) and it needs to put some proper fear into opposing teams. Whatever about competing in the big games, from 6th-20th is where you win or lose the league, its the bread and butter stuff.

And we can point fingers and analyse tons of different points as its never just "one thing" but a mjor contributing factor is this teams inability to convert chances and score goals. And as it has continued, it's evident the manager has been unsuccessful in terms of resolving it. So everyone is culpable, and its something that needs addressing next season.

Be it a new striker to put pressure on, and maybe rotate with Zlatan or even be our new #1, or some new wide players that will provide actual goals. Lots of goals.

Or some work or change happening with existing players. We have goals in these players. Rashford, Martial, Mata, Mhiki, Hererra, Pogba, Fellaini, Lingaard. These are players that can score goals and should be chipping in much much more. Only Mata on that list has hit double figures this season?

That is absolutely piss poor considering the amount of chances we are creating in games. Piss poor.

I believe it would be a great season if we won the Europa, got top 4 and a league cup. That's excellent progress. The type of football is much more attractive to watch also.

Korat

I know there are some Utd fans who never be happy with Mourinho, they just can't get over the hate they built up for him over the years. Winning a couple of titles and a European Cup would win some over but there'd still be a hardcore who will nit pick some aspect of his demeanour or the style of play which was unbefitting of the club's history.

Because of that the bar is much higher for him than Moyes and Van Gaal. You can see the tightrope he's trying to walk in playing the 'Utd Way' to please the purists and allowing his instinctive pragmatism to have the team try see out games. If he fails it will be a lot uglier for him than it was for Moyes or LVG.

So far I think it's individual players who've been disappointing at times rather than the manager but he's the one who will ultimately pay the price of failure and the sneering "I TOLD YOU SO"s will rain like a wet weekend in Kerry.

TheDoc

Korat wrote: »

I know there are some Utd fans who never be happy with Mourinho, they just can't get over the hate they built up for him over the years. Winning a couple of titles and a European Cup would win some over but there'd still be a hardcore who will nit pick some aspect of his demeanour or the style of play which was unbefitting of the club's history.

Because of that the bar is much higher for him than Moyes and Van Gaal. You can see the tightrope he's trying to walk in playing the 'Utd Way' to please the purists and allowing his instinctive pragmatism to have the team try see out games. If he fails it will be a lot uglier for him than it was for Moyes or LVG.

So far I think it's individual players who've been disappointing at times rather than the manager but he's the one who will ultimately pay the price of failure and the sneering "I TOLD YOU SO"s will rain like a wet weekend in Kerry.

To be clear when you say "some fans" are you referring to me or not? I don't want this myth building again that I hate Mourinho and everything he does, which then forbids me from making genuine criticism of him and the team

TheDoc

Pheonix10 wrote: »

I believe it would be a great season if we won the Europa, got top 4 and a league cup. That's excellent progress. The type of football is much more attractive to watch also.

That would indeed be a good indication of progress, and be a pleasing season. Pleasing through based on where it was looking for large portions.

But still, there would be no complaints from me, and that would be an incredible turn around and saving of the season. But I'd also understand if that got nitpicked, considering the expectations set at the start of the season by the manager and the club. But it would be a pretty strong first season to have as a platform moving forward.

In terms of attractiveness, for me personally anyway, I think I take more pleasure from winning. My ultimate satisfaction is winning convincingly. Just because I'm point out issues or concerns or what I feel are errors, doesn't mean its a sham. Just what I do, like analysing the game and like taking a more wholesome view on results and the match itself, rather then just "3 points, we are the best". Not saying anyone is saying that, but I do strongly feel that the wave of hype, hope and positivity has gone too far, in masking over what has been a crackly season.

I don't think Jose or the players should be getting it in the neck, nor do I think they should be getting lambasted with praise. It sits very much in the middle I feel (as normal) probably along the lines of a C in a report card of "Progressing well, but can do much better"

jayo26

The doc just v3ttel the fuk out of the whole thread ban that guy.

Anyway while on goals scored and points wise I don't see us much better then last year I do agree but the single biggest thing that makes me give José credit is we are creating loads more chances and taking loads more shots then last year he has changed the mentality of team and we are playing alot better football.

Yes six at the back is extreme but yes that kind of thing is what Jose does and he does it better then anyone. Rashford and Jesse were running at them all game and there legs were gone rashford couldn't run for the last 20 minutes and we had no one else on the bench that could do what they were doing apart from martial but I'm nearly sure he wasn't 100percent either.

When they stopped running it gave Boro more time to play direct passes up front and they attacked alot better so we adapted to it and ended up winning the game. I don't see the problem here? They already scored before he dropped the wingback deeper and to be fair they couldn't attack much anyway because they had nowhere to go only on the counter which valencia did and ended up scoring.

I said it in the city thread of pep was able adapt tactics to suit a game like Jose can they would still be in the champions league. It was six at the back for 15 mins not an entire game and we won and he dealt with the situation.

Cantona's Collars

Even under Ferguson, playing "The United way" didn't always happen.When it came to the run in all that mattered was results, winning 1-0 or 5-0 still meant 3 points.We ground out a lot of wins under Ferguson when all that mattered was 3 points.
Under LVG we were a chore to watch and created feck all,under Jose we are creating lots but just can't finish. Hopefully next season will see that cured as all I can see now is a grind to the end of the season as games come thick and fast.
We certainly can't accuse Jose of being too conservative in his approach, if that was the case we'd never had created so many chances in games.At least we aren't going into games against the likes of Swansea etc.with trepidation that was so prevalent before.

Korat

TheDoc wrote: »

To be clear when you say "some fans" are you referring to me or not? I don't want this myth building again that I hate Mourinho and everything he does, which then forbids me from making genuine criticism of him and the team

I wasn't specifically referring to you, I know some real people who seriously hate him though, and I don't know how you feel about Mourinho but you're the first out the gate I've seen having a go at length on here. I realise it's your style to go into detail but I think it's a bit soon for it. We did win against Boro.

It's not like we're shy about criticising the team when things aren't go well around here.

jayo26

Shocking story just breaking.... Phil Jones out of England squad after injury in training.

Mitch Connor

TheDoc wrote: »

That would indeed be a good indication of progress, and be a pleasing season. Pleasing through based on where it was looking for large portions.

But still, there would be no complaints from me, and that would be an incredible turn around and saving of the season. But I'd also understand if that got nitpicked, considering the expectations set at the start of the season by the manager and the club. But it would be a pretty strong first season to have as a platform moving forward.

In terms of attractiveness, for me personally anyway, I think I take more pleasure from winning. My ultimate satisfaction is winning convincingly. Just because I'm point out issues or concerns or what I feel are errors, doesn't mean its a sham. Just what I do, like analysing the game and like taking a more wholesome view on results and the match itself, rather then just "3 points, we are the best". Not saying anyone is saying that, but I do strongly feel that the wave of hype, hope and positivity has gone too far, in masking over what has been a crackly season.

I don't think Jose or the players should be getting it in the neck, nor do I think they should be getting lambasted with praise. It sits very much in the middle I feel (as normal) probably along the lines of a C in a report card of "Progressing well, but can do much better"

I'd have been a big shouter for Mourinho before Moyes was hired, before LVG was hired and after LVG was sacked - I'm a big defender of Mourinho.

I think that in general terms United have looked to play good and attacking football this season under him. I think the dropped points in a lot of cases have been down to player performance (poor finishing) rather than a tactical issue on Jose's part (as I felt LVG and Moyes owned most of the blame)

However, to back you up - I've been very disappointed with Mourinho over the last two weeks. the lack of squad usage in the second leg vs St. Etienne was insane. I think there were selection issues at home to Rostov. I think there were mitigating factors in the Chelsea performance but the Boro game? Fcuk me. 7 defenders at the end of the game? As you said - Martial and Mkhitaryan substitutions were baffling obvious. Playing Jones at wing back when Rojo is on the pitch? WHY? On the one hand we do have to accept the 3 points and move on - taking into account missing Rooney, Ibrahimovic, Pogba and Herrera, along with fitness concerns over other players - but we surely have to consider the Boro selections and tactics in conjunction with other questionable decisions over the last month. Is it a "one off" or the start of a trend? Is this Mourinho reverting to the defensive, cynical style that people have claimed of him?

In the end our opinions don't matter, we all know that, but I think being worried by the performance and approach to the Boro is more than reasonable - there were causes for concern, imo.

jayo26

He already answered the Jones at wingback was because rojo was tired and couldn't run and Jones was fresh?

Lord TSC

Lacazette to Atletico seems to be doing the rounds, pending appeal of their transfer ban.

TheDoc

Mitch Connor wrote: »

In the end our opinions don't matter, we all know that, but I think being worried by the performance and approach to the Boro is more than reasonable - there were causes for concern, imo.

And I think it's appropriate and that we should be discussing those concerns and just highlighting them. Not to define any end game or final anything from it, but just to note they are there.

That you then see them change or improve is really how we can gauge if things are getting better or getting worse.

I'm just in a weird space this season and very much the last few months. I feel at times much better watching united. I feel engaged, I feel entertained, I feel like its on the right track and things are going places.

Then a "bermp" result happens and the wind just comes out of me. How did we draw that, how did we drop points. It's very conflicting.

I see the chances we created, the way the team moves in attack and I'm like in the moment "****ing yes". I'm howling in goals, I'm jumping of my seat when we miss chances, I feel so engaged. Then I'll be idly roaming twitter or something later that evening and see our goal related stats towards the bottom of the league. Just seeing these mental figures that are a good measure for our attack and I'm like "omg we are terrible" and there really is no two ways around it at points.

Regardless of what has happened up to now, we can win the Europa league, we can get top 4 and we can really land some serious blows on those above us in the run in. While there are big games that if I'm honest make me nervous, it's an opportunity for the team and Mourinho to seriously land some digs. Two fingers in the air, get the results, get the wins. Send out a real message that we arn't ****ing around and that next season, know we are coming.

A part of me though thinks he will just take it as a ready made excuse, the fixture pileup, and fact its tough games consecutively etc. And as you keep spouting that in public, it's going to seep into the players regardless of what goes on behind the scenes. Fans will start to buy into it if the manager keeps saying it and accept losing big games is fine because "the players are tired". I'm tired of the excuses to be honest, a part of me thinks its him lowering expectations cause hes freaked we will finish 6th, another thinks he is just being defiant, siege mentality mourinho. But unlike Chelsea, you don't need to create a construct to have everyone against United, its always been there. It comes from success and jealousy.

I guess on the flipside I just wish he could be a bit more defiant in a constructive way, see it as an opportunity to finish the season on a massive high, and get a juggernaut rolling again.

I don't know what it is or why he is being like this.

Does he think his job is in jeapordy? Sure Moyes and Van Gaal got sacked for missing CL, but I'd assume Mourinho has got different assurances.
Does he think the fans will turn on him? Moyes and Van Gaal enjoyed massive support until it wasn't tenable anymore, Jose nowhere near those levels, not even a whimper of pressure on him.

I wanted a certain type of Jose that thus far I have just not gotten, that is not to say it won't come, but it's not the one I wanted so far. And it's not I want some form of Mourinho that doesn't exist, I just wanted the one that wasn't so twisted and paranoid and making excuses all over the place. I wanted the younger, firey Mourinho that seemed no matter what was thrown at him, he would figure it out, get the win, and saunter off with two fingers in the air at everyone else.

adox

I think he has been fairly well critiqued on here throughout the season.

I dont think there has been anyone that has said that everything is rosey in the garden.

The damage done to the club since Fergie left cant be underestimated. Thats not to make excuses for Jose but we were never going to get a one season fix.

sky88

i think id put myself in the i really dont like jose but if he brings success i really dont care. its like when you dont like players but if they score i think youll get over it.

TheDoc

sky88 wrote: »

i think id put myself in the i really dont like jose but if he brings success i really dont care. its like when you dont like players but if they score i think youll get over it.

I used to really like him. But then at Madrid he just turned sour and nasty. I put it down to the pressure and the politics of that club, and that he couldn't really do what he felt he needed to take them to the next level.

He just hasn't been the same since in my view and a real heir of invincibility he had, kinda disappeared for me.

I was relieved when he was sacked at Chelsea first time round, as for the first time in my United viewing, I felt there was someone and something that Ferguson might not figure out how to deal with.

Just saying to one of the lads here in an idle chat. I would love if Ferguson was 10 years younger and still our manager. Be fascinating to see how he would have coped in this current setup of incredible managers in the league .

The_Kew_Tour

Now this is my count so im open for correction, but since the 4-0 hammering to Chelsea we have played 33 Games and in only 3 of those have we conceded 2 goals or more( in this case just 2)

Fernbache 1-2
Hull 1-2
Southampton 3-2

I think Jose is doing a good job. How many times last season was DDG motm? Compared to this season. I think had we only taken 10% of the easy chances we havev missed this season I think we be talking very different.

The players imo have neen getting the easy time if anything. I know the buck stops with the manager but some of the games where we have missed sitters is far greater then the managers problem.

Jayop

As bad as some of the seasons results have been I'm happy enough now. If you had asked me at the start of the season for a minimum expectation then I'd have said something of a title challenge and a cup. Now we're closing in on the end of the season, we've had nothing resembling a title challenge at all thanks to a really bad start, but we've been good enough since then. Winning a cup was my only trophy hope really and we've done that.

Should we finish in the top four and win the EL then the season will have outdone my expectations.

Should we finish 5th and miss out in the EL then I'll be very pissed off with the season.

Nalz

Huh?

GSPfan

Thank fook we didn't lose or draw against Boro is all I say.

I wouldn't swap Jose for anyone. I can live with his bad points, as I did with Ferguson. Don't always agree with what they did or said but I don't care as long as they win trophies and it's entertaining. Jose is ticking both those boxes.

Jayop

Just to clarify, I'm not within an asses roar of wanting to change manager regardless of what happens the rest of the year. I do have a great deal of faith in him to get it right.

Lithium93_

3rd times a charm, José will get it right..

GSPfan

Don't think anyone in here is calling for him to go but you can see some people preparing their I told you so's. And that's just what people do regardless of who it is so it doesn't really matter.

It's a way of putting yourself in a position of being right regardless of the outcome, as you can claim you're happy if he wins, and claim you tried to warn everyone if it all goes wrong.

sReq | uTeK

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Now this is my count so im open for correction, but since the 4-0 hammering to Chelsea we have played 33 Games and in only 3 of those have we conceded 2 goals or more( in this case just 2)

Fernbache 1-2
Hull 1-2
Southampton 3-2

I think Jose is doing a good job. How many times last season was DDG motm? Compared to this season. I think had we only taken 10% of the easy chances we havev missed this season I think we be talking very different.

The players imo have neen getting the easy time if anything. I know the buck stops with the manager but some of the games where we have missed sitters is far greater then the managers problem.

Exactly. Pep came out and said he can tell his team how to play but in the game he can't score for his forwards and pundits agreed with him. Yet Jose is getting the stick for the same thing

Jayop

GSPfan wrote: »

Don't think anyone in here is calling for him to go but you can see some people preparing their I told you so's. And that's just what people do regardless of who it is so it doesn't really matter.

It's a way of putting yourself in a position of being right regardless of the outcome, as you can claim you're happy if he wins, and claim you tried to warn everyone if it all goes wrong.

Aye maybe some are doing that. If they are then let them off because it's a pretty sad way to support your team. I'm 100% behind him and I can see enough improvements to give me great faith. If he can get our summer 2016 signings playing to their full potential long term and add to it this summer then we will be a force very soon.

Robson99

Jayop wrote: »

Aye maybe some are doing that. If they are then let them off because it's a pretty sad way to support your team. I'm 100% behind him and I can see enough improvements to give me great faith. If he can get our summer 2016 signings playing to their full potential long term and add to it this summer then we will be a force very soon.

I tthink practically everyone is behind him and willing to give him time, however he is not above criticism for our season so far.
Yes we have won a cup but lets be honest we would be laughing at pool fans if they were gloating about winning it. Its a start but nothing to get excited about.
Failure to get Champions League football will be a massive blow. With the squad we have we should be challenging for the league not fourth.
I agree we are playing better football than under LVG however last Sunday was not the first time we have had to watch this 6 at the back ****.
His treatment of some of the younger players is strange particular Shaw and TFM. Shaw was one of the best young fullbacks in europe prior to his injury. Surely he hasn't regressed so much that Rojo, Darmian and Blind are ahead of him. Surely TFM deserves some games. Why are Ibra and Pogba above being substituted or dropped irrespective of form?
This nonsense about fixtures, too many games blah blah blah. Its what happens when you progress in competitions. Yes Europa on a Thursday is tough and he is not to blame for us being in it this season, however if we miss out on CL we will be in it again next seasonand he will be partly to blame for it.
A big month of April coming up and big pressure to deliver. Hopefully we get CL next season and we can kick on. I would have no worries about him getting his targets in the summer and to his credit he usually buys well. If he had got the gig after Fergie retired it would be interesting where we would be today.

Jayop

Robson99 wrote: »

I tthink practically everyone is behind him and willing to give him time, however he is not above criticism for our season so far.
Yes we have won a cup but lets be honest we would be laughing at pool fans if they were gloating about winning it. Its a start but nothing to get excited about.
Failure to get Champions League football will be a massive blow. With the squad we have we should be challenging for the league not fourth.
I agree we are playing better football than under LVG however last Sunday was not the first time we have had to watch this 6 at the back ****.
His treatment of some of the younger players is strange particular Shaw and TFM. Shaw was one of the best young fullbacks in europe prior to his injury. Surely he hasn't regressed so much that Rojo, Darmian and Blind are ahead of him. Surely TFM deserves some games. Why are Ibra and Pogba above being substituted or dropped irrespective of form?
This nonsense about fixtures, too many games blah blah blah. Its what happens when you progress in competitions. Yes Europa on a Thursday is tough and he is not to blame for us being in it this season, however if we miss out on CL we will be in it again next seasonand he will be partly to blame for it.
A big month of April coming up and big pressure to deliver. Hopefully we get CL next season and we can kick on. I would have no worries about him getting his targets in the summer and to his credit he usually buys well. If he had got the gig after Fergie retired it would be interesting where we would be today.

Here's what I said a few hours ago.

Jayop wrote: »

Should we finish in the top four and win the EL then the season will have outdone my expectations.

Should we finish 5th and miss out in the EL then I'll be very pissed off with the season.

No man is beyond criticism. FFS Fergie, the greatest manager of all time got criticised all the time and Jose has done nothing as United manager yet to allow him to escape it. It's one of the things I like about the United support. We can criticise our players and management among ourselves without it being the end of the world.

Robson99

Jayop wrote: »

Here's what I said a few hours ago.



No man is beyond criticism. FFS Fergie, the greatest manager of all time got criticised all the time and Jose has done nothing as United manager yet to allow him to escape it. It's one of the things I like about the United support. We can criticise our players and management among ourselves without it being the end of the world.

Apologies if you thought I was singling you out and I did see your quote earlier re finishing without CL football.

Lithium93_

United to face Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man City, LA Galaxy & Real Salt Lake on their U.S Tour in the Summer.

GSPfan

This is all strange timing to me.

We are now in a position where winning our games in hand moves us into 4th, we are in the quarterfinals of the Europa League, we already won the League Cup, and everyone is talking about 6 at the back?

Seems like the wrong week to be discussing Jose's methods is all. Wouldn't have thought playing 6 defenders at the end of a game we won 3-1 would be such a deal.

bucketybuck

Robson99 wrote: »

Shaw was one of the best young fullbacks in europe prior to his injury. Surely he hasn't regressed so much that Rojo, Darmian and Blind are ahead of him.

Just to respond to this. Luke Shaw spent quite a lot of his first season under Van Gaal on the bench doing nothing much at all, with a few barbed comments about fitness there for good measure. He then had about 4 good games before the leg break, and now in the year since he returned to the squad has again done nothing much at all.

I just don't think it's accurate to say that he was the best in Europe before his injury, when the facts are that in nearly 3 years at the club he has looked good for one short spell and looked off the pace for the rest of it. Even allowing for a really crap injury he hasn't done nearly enough.

I would also note that I said this about Shaw at the start of this season, he certainly hasn't proven me wrong since that's for sure.

Cantona's Collars

Jones looks like missing 9 games,Smalling broke his toe during training with England.

A lot of the morning papers pouring water on the Rooney to West Ham story and are all going with the same line that he's going back to Everton on a free.They were briefed methinks.

Minderbinder

Lithium93_ wrote: »

United to face Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man City, LA Galaxy & Real Salt Lake on their U.S Tour in the Summer.

After last summer in China and now this year in USA they are really trying their best to sell the City rivalry as 'the big one'. I expect for those international markets it makes sense.

RobertKK

Really strong pre-season line up of games.

Cantona's Collars

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/844307154723110912

Good all-round interview with Jose from 'France Football'...

http://www.getfootballnewsfrance.com/2017/jose-mourinho-this-job-is-becoming-crazy/

It's too big to dump in the thread, but here's a bit of it...

10 years ago, you said that it was difficult for you to live without a title. That it was what fed you. Is that still the case?

That is still true. But football has changed enormously. And I learned that the make up of the job was to adapt to the project of the big clubs that you are working in, and to embrace them. I knew, when I arrived at Manchester United, that I would come across good things, but also other more difficult things. I need to adapt to this reality, to what the club wants, without losing my true nature, without being someone else.

That is why I take back what I said ten years ago, meaning that titles, victories, are the best way to educate a group of players, to change mentalities.

Did you enjoy winning the EFL Cup, against Southampton (3-2)?

Of course… I really enjoyed it.

You could not see that on your face…

That is probably my fault, just like it is my fault for saying things like the phrase you cited from ten years ago. The problem is that I attract responsibility, challenges, expectations. That is my way of being. I never hide. I am a direct person, who says things as they are.

I say what I think, and even sometimes what I don’t think to provoke a certain motivation from the people who I work alongside. I arrived at Manchester United at a difficult time. But it was the same for David Moyes and Louis van Gaal. The period that followed the departure of Sir Alex was difficult to handle for the club, and not only because of his departure.

Why?

It was also a new era for English football. A time where the financial strength became so enormous that it became terrifying for everyone. Because this financial strength did not exist only among two clubs, like in Spain, not among one club like in Germany, not among one or two clubs like in France. In England, it is spread out.

So yes, there are more powerful clubs than others and the expectations that come with that. But, here, everyone is powerful now. The scenery has changed. If I want to buy a player from Tottenham, I can’t. Nor can I buy a player from Manchester City or Arsenal. That was not the case before. At Chelsea, I brought in Shaun Wright-Phillips, who was the best player at Manchester City or Ashley Cole from Arsenal. Sir Alex, when he wanted the best player from Tottenham, he bought Michael Carrick and then Berbatov.

Do you think that in 2017, a manager can stay in the same club for twenty years, like Sir Alex or Arsène Wenger at Arsenal?

I don’t think so. Wenger will be the last one. When he leaves Arsenal, we won’t see again, in the decade that follows, a manager staying in the same club for more than seven years, ok, maximum ten. It has become impossible. Not just because of the profile of the clubs but also because of the profile of the managers.

I have doubts about the new generation of managers, about how they have been trained, their ability to integrate themselves into all aspects of a club. You are going to need personalities with enormous qualities.

Aitor Karanka, who was your right-hand man at Real, recently told us that you want assistants that contradict you…

Absolutely. I do not need “yes men,” instead I want people who have their own opinions. And even people who contest my decisions, questioning them. I always say to my assistants: “During the match, I want to think alone.” I do not want to have someone who is going to talk next to me, to tell me things. In those moments, I want to put together my expertise, with my instinct, with my feeling.

I want to manage the team by myself. During the week, however, before or after matches, I am counting on them to behave like managers, who think for themselves, who think about what I say, who criticise me, who ask me questions for me to explain what I am doing with the team. I learnt that at Barcelona with Mr Van Gaal. That is what he demanded from his assistants.

Giggsy11

Bit random but if given a choice to choose between finishing 2nd and not winning Europa or winning Europa and finishing 5/6/7 I would opt for latter.

I know its very obvious, just saying it.

Crimson King

TBH, I think winning the EL would be amazing simply because it is a brilliant competition to win. The bonus of course is CL qualification but primarily the Cup success would make me happy. United have a great opportunity to qualify for the last four now with a slightly easier route than could have been, albeit by no means a gimme.

This season has been weird, although I will say this. Where the club was in the last months of last season compared to this season, they certainly are going in the right direction.

Klopp is getting some well deserved plaudits for the job he is doing at Anfield. Technically he is a full season ahead of Jose and yet United could be level on points if they win their games in hand and has actually won something, with more possibly to come. Considering the state of the team when he arrived, I certainly think he has made great progress, with some criticisms of course. I am excited again. Can't wait to see what happens this Summer. Jose will already have his recruitments identified and possibly even contacted at this stage. He works fast in the market and I don't see too many sagas like we have seen previously, except maybe big money transfers for obvious reasons.

Minderbinder

The EL trophy is so much cooler than the CL one too.

Giggsy11

Interesting article on Pogba by statsbomb.

World record transfer fees demand world record performances. Paul Pogba’s first season in the Manchester United first team took turn for the worse last week after been outplayed by N’Golo Kante against Chelsea in the FA Cup then succumbing to injury in United’s perfunctory dismissal of FC Rostov. He will now get time to rest up on his bed of money, ponder new hairstyles, make videos and reflect upon his disastrous season and how he hasn’t lived up to the demands his fee placed upon him.

I mean look at this:



Pogba’s outputs this season are around half that he put up for Juventus last year, where he was a big contributor and behind only Paulo Dybala for goal contribution. That’s what Man Utd thought they were signing, but instead they got half a Pogba. Would they be in sixth… sorry, er… FIFTH place if he’d have stepped up? No. Would they have meekly exited the cup if he had stepped up when his nine remaining teammates needed him against Chelsea? No. Would Ferguson have retired if Pogba hadn’t betrayed the club that nurtured him and disappeared to Italy as soon as the money got waved under his nose? No. Would Ferguson have built a new team around Pogba, with Paul Scholes playing alongside him, now able to play into his mid-40s because of the energy that Pogba brought to the midfield? Yes. Would Ryan Giggs be waiting by the phone hoping ITV call over the international break? No. Would Paul be the most popular baby name in Manchester by now? Yes.

Of course there are other narratives available and if you’ve made it this far vigourously nodding your head up and down until that last bit when it went a bit weird, then it’s possible that you’ve not read a StatsBomb article before. A bunch of ill-conceived narrative supported by surface stats isn’t our style. So apologies, but here’s the real deal.

Parts of Pogba’s game are actually thriving in Manchester. He is no longer part of a truly dominant team in a league, yet while his goal contribution has suffered, his expected goal contribution (from a-shooting and a-creating point of view) looks just fine. Even allowing for some model error, it would be hard to say that his performances have not deserved more:



How about that? Our old friend variance has stepped in. If this chart looked like the first one then perhaps we would have a problem but, well: it doesn’t.

If we break it down, he’s taking around three shots per game, which across his career is behind only his last season at Juventus, and while his expected goals per shot rate has been on the low side (0.071 per shot), he’s never hit a high rate here and that’s above last season (0.065). Indeed, he’s a player who may have a decent claim to have earned the right to deploy shots from range, as he’s notched 16 times from distance across the last five seasons, against an expectation of around eight. He’s never going to be an optimal shooter who focuses on close range–his position dictates that–and may well be good enough from further out to carry on. And he does get in the box, especially as a threat from set plays; he’s not Andros Townsend.





It is also clear enough that Mourinho is happy enough for Pogba and Zlatan Ibrahimovic to take the lion’s share of the attacking work in this side. Despite a broadly more defensive role for United than for Juventus, Pogba to Ibrahimovic (19) is the most common key pass in the league this year, and Ibrahimovic to Pogba isn’t far behind (14). This chart also reflects where he is most usually positioned.



Creatively, he’s hitting numbers ahead of his time at Juventus. His key pass rate of a shade under two per game is career high, and his passes into the final third have risen to around 22 per game ahead of no more than 16 while in Italy. At least part of this is a function of seeing more of the ball and at times being asked to play a more disciplined midfield role: Man Utd Pogba is getting through nearly sixty passes per game compared to Juventus’ Pogba’s rate of nearer forty. Both Juventus 2015-16 and Man Utd 2016-17 are 500+ pass per game teams, yet Pogba is now more involved and it hasn’t decreased his attacking involvement, the opposite is true. Oh and he’s logged more completed throughball shot assists this season than any other player in the big five European leagues too (9).

The only area in which his game has declined is in output, half of which is inevitably outside his control; he can’t affect whether his team mates finish the chances he makes. He has three assists in the league–all to Ibrahimovic– yet the chances he’s created can be valued closer to six goals. Assists can be a notoriously volatile measure and we’ve seen clear examples before. One being Christian Eriksen’s 2014-15 season in which he recorded two assists from 84 key passes in over 3000 minutes of play. Sure enough, his subsequent seasons have seen the outputs to his creativity return, and Pogba’s Italian tenure shows him consistently log assists from a decent volume of chances.

On top of that, the whole team has been struggling to hit a positive skew from it’s shooting. United take a ton of shots–17 per game–but are the lowest scorers of the big six with just 42 goals compared to Man City’s next worst 54. Nobody in the team is running super hot with goals, not even Ibrahimovic who is only slightly ahead of expectation. Antony Martial and Henrikh Mkhitaryan are slightly ahead too but each has played limited minutes. Jesse Lingard’s net-busting effort at the weekend finally saw him break his league duck this season and it feels like Mourinho’s inability to settle on an attacking unit beyond Pogba and Ibrahimovic–except perhaps to reject Rooney–may have had an effect on the impact of his support men. Other teams have enjoyed the hot form of their attackers; Chelsea have Diego Costa and Eden Hazard, Tottenham have Harry Kane and Dele Alli, Liverpool have Sadio Mane, Arsenal have Alexis Sanchez and Olivier Giroud. All have shown great form this season but have each landed a mile over their expected goal rates. Nobody at United has to that extent. That’s football.

Paul Pogba turned 24 last week. United paid the premium to get an all round midfielder for his prime years and at a new club with a new manager, his first season has been solid. Expectations of huge output may go alongside his fee, but fail to understand his strengths and what type of player he actually is. He isn’t a one man attack like typical world record transfers and he never will be.

The squad is still in transition and it’s likely that the summer will see another rash of big money talent through the door. Ibrahimovic may have been a sticking plaster for their attack, but central midfield is locked down with Ander Herrera looking a good bet to continue alongside Pogba in the seasons to come. Next time an outlet runs a negative Pogba piece, or some stats get listed and distorted, recall that it’s probably not his actual performance that is driving the hit, but a wide variety of prejudices.

The truth is he’s doing just fine.

http://statsbomb.com/2017/03/tough-times-for-paul-pogba/

Liam McPoyle

Crimson King wrote: »

TBH, I think winning the EL would be amazing simply because it is a brilliant competition to win. The bonus of course is CL qualification but primarily the Cup success would make me happy. United have a great opportunity to qualify for the last four now with a slightly easier route than could have been, albeit by no means a gimme.

This season has been weird, although I will say this. Where the club was in the last months of last season compared to this season, they certainly are going in the right direction.

Klopp is getting some well deserved plaudits for the job he is doing at Anfield. Technically he is a full season ahead of Jose and yet United could be level on points if they win their games in hand and has actually won something, with more possibly to come. Considering the state of the team when he arrived, I certainly think he has made great progress, with some criticisms of course. I am excited again. Can't wait to see what happens this Summer. Jose will already have his recruitments identified and possibly even contacted at this stage. He works fast in the market and I don't see too many sagas like we have seen previously, except maybe big money transfers for obvious reasons.

Can't compete financially blah blah blah.

Most expensive player in the world blah blah blah.

Most expensive squad ever assembled blah blah blah.

Mane went to the AFCON blah blah blah.

Coutihno got injured blah blah blah.

Firimino had a drink driving conviction hanging over him blah blah blah.

Small squad blah blah blah.

Jose is doing just fine IMO.

He cannot be held accountable for players not being able to finish, if we were more clinical up front we would be comfortably in second.

We have a trophy in the cabinet, a good shot at the EL (weakest last 8 its been in years blah blah blah) and still an outside chance at top 4.

My hope at the start of the season was a comfortable top 4 and a trophy or two.

If we can get CL either way then I'll be pretty content come the end of the season.

Next season we will have a more settled squad with a few key additions.

If we aren't competing at the top of the table by this time next year then questions will rightly be asked, you cannot spend what has been and will be spent and not be going for the big trophies.

Lord TSC

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Bit random but if given a choice to choose between finishing 2nd and not winning Europa or winning Europa and finishing 5/6/7 I would opt for latter.

I know its very obvious, just saying it.

Sure. My fear is we focus on the EL, lose it and also finish outside the top 4..

Jayop

Lord TSC wrote: »

Sure. My fear is we focus on the EL, lose it and also finish outside the top 4..

Aye would be much better to have 4th or better wrapped up before the final. Would take some of the pressure of it too.

Giggsy11

nicklauski wrote: »

Contract apparently paid up and move is subject to medical and visa.

Simon Stone (BBC) said contract isn't paid up. No transfer fee is involved and ManUtd just released him. So ManUtd waived transfer fee, probably Chicago fire will pay him extra signing on fee to compensate his contract at ManUtd.

Giggsy11

Lord TSC wrote: »

Sure. My fear is we focus on the EL, lose it and also finish outside the top 4..

Yeah relying on Knock out competitions is always a huge risk but IMO we should win this considering we are better than any team left and also have good draw in QFs.

fergiesfolly

Some one might clarify this for me, cos I googled it and the UEFA explanation is a little muddy.
If we finish fifth and win EL, we qualify for the CL group stages and don't have to play qualifier?

Also, and I may well have read this wrong but..
If we win EL and finish fifth and Leicester win CL (I know, I know) and don't finish top 4( which obviously they won't) the 4th placed team drops down to the EL.
Cos, it would make all my Christmas' dreams come true if that happened.

paulbok

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Some one might clarify this for me, cos I googled it and the UEFA explanation is a little muddy.
If we finish fifth and win EL, we qualify for the CL group stages and don't have to play qualifier?

Also, and I may well have read this wrong but..
If we win EL and finish fifth and Leicester win CL (I know, I know) and don't finish top 4( which obviously they won't) the 4th placed team drops down to the EL.
Cos, it would make all my Christmas' dreams come true if that happened.

Don't know about the first question but you are correct with the second scenario - max of 5 qualifiers from a country.

v3ttel

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Some one might clarify this for me, cos I googled it and the UEFA explanation is a little muddy.
If we finish fifth and win EL, we qualify for the CL group stages and don't have to play qualifier?

Also, and I may well have read this wrong but..
If we win EL and finish fifth and Leicester win CL (I know, I know) and don't finish top 4( which obviously they won't) the 4th placed team drops down to the EL.
Cos, it would make all my Christmas' dreams come true if that happened.

Correct on both counts.

Sevilla as Europa League winners did not play in the qualifying round for the Champions League. If United win the Europa League (still a big if), and if Leicster win the Champions League (a massive if with flashing red lights and bells on it), then the fourth place team in England would miss out on Champions League.

You can only have a maximum of 5 teams from any country.