no sockets in bathroom

aliveandkicking

Apologies if this is a dumb question or not worded correctly (no electrical knowledge) but wondering if there is anything in the regs preventing the installation of a washing machine in a bathroom if it was hardwired to the mains with an isolation swith rather than plugged in via a socket? Much the same way something like a jacuzzi bath is wired in a bathroom?

ptogher14

punisher5112 wrote: »

You could but it would want to be one big bathroom.

My point exactly. There isn't a regulation stating you can't put a socket in a bathroom

Tuco88

Steve wrote: »

2011 wrote: »

They are generally around 20 VA. These units have a deliberately limited output so they simply would not have enough power to push 200 mA through a person.

To get a shock from the output of one of these someone would have to be in contact with both outputs at the same time.

They are also CTE which limits the voltage.

Interesting that 20VA @ 120V can deliver 166mA, this is enough to kill (from what I was told in college).

I don't think they are a C.T.E traffo, I'm pretty sure they are an isolated traffo (no secondary earth) you might be thinking of the 110v site traffo.

Steve

Tuco88 wrote: »

I don't think they are a C.T.E traffo, I'm pretty sure they are an isolated traffo (no secondary earth) you might be thinking of the 110v site traffo.

Yeah, actually that makes more sense.

ptogher14

The regs don't state you can't a socket in a bathroom or any electrical device for that matter. They can't be within a certain range of a sink, shower etc. There's different zones. You could have an IP rated socket closer to a sink than a standard socket.

Take a toilet block in an office. They'll have hand dryers Automatic towel dispensers etc. All in a bathroom but not within a zone

Steve

ptogher14 wrote: »

The regs don't state you can't a socket in a bathroom or any electrical device for that matter. They can't be within a certain range of a sink, shower etc. There's different zones. You could have an IP rated socket closer to a sink than a standard socket.

Take a toilet block in an office. They'll have hand dryers Automatic towel dispensers etc. All in a bathroom but not within a zone

If you know the regs so well, why did you ask for a link earlier?

2011

Tuco88 wrote: »

I don't think they are a C.T.E traffo, I'm pretty sure they are an isolated traffo (no secondary earth) you might be thinking of the 110v site traffo.

Exactly, this is why it is necessary to make contact with both conductors n the output side of the transformer in order to get a shock.

ptogher14

Steve wrote: »

If you know the regs so well, why did you ask for a link earlier?

I was trying to make a point to aido to stop and think about it rather than just tell him he's wrong. It can be about how you interpret the regs. A lot of people including sparks are under the impression you can't install an electrical point in a bathroom when that's not a case. It came up at work recently, a M+E engineer was suggesting a socket could not be installed in a cleaners stores.

Sometimes you just need to stop and think about. I was not looking for argument

Steve

ptogher14 wrote: »

I was trying to make a point to aido to stop and think about it rather than just tell him he's wrong. It can be about how you interpret the regs. A lot of people including sparks are under the impression you can't install an electrical point in a bathroom when that's not a case. It came up at work recently, a M+E engineer was suggesting a socket could not be installed in a cleaners stores.

Sometimes you just need to stop and think about. I was not looking for argument

Fair enough, It's not exactly fair to ask people to abide by regulations prescribed by law when said regulations are not actually available for all to see.

ptogher14

The regs are available to purchase by anybody. Anybody installing a socket should have a copy of them or at least be familiar with them. Again a lot of sparks arent.

I think an app version to purchase would be very handy.

Steve

Any version that doesn't cost €600 or whatever it is now would be great.

xl500

mikewest wrote: »

The thinking behind this is why so many people feel that the regulations here and the UK around wet room/bathroom wiring are just stupid.

200mA is enough to kill you twice over and leave change in fact 60mA can be enough hence the reason for the upper rating available on a RCD/RCBO/GFCI being 30mA for life injury protection.

If you have a RCD/RCBO/GFCI installed which you must have according to the same regulations then the "protection" offered by the shaver socket is redundant as the circuit would trip at a lower amperage than the max available from the isolating transformer in the event of a ground fault (or using the socket with a damaged or faulty implement while standing on a wet floor in bare feet).

It is a legacy regulation which no longer makes sense in a new correctly installed situation, however getting it changed will probably never happen.

RCBO On Primary of Isolating Trafo Will not Pick up Earth Fault on Secondary thats the Whole Point its isolated the Secondary is a completely seperate circuit ie you can ground either secondary and the RCBO Will not trip of course if you Ground Both you will Short Circuit

aido79

ptogher14 wrote: »

I was trying to make a point to aido to stop and think about it rather than just tell him he's wrong. It can be about how you interpret the regs. A lot of people including sparks are under the impression you can't install an electrical point in a bathroom when that's not a case. It came up at work recently, a M+E engineer was suggesting a socket could not be installed in a cleaners stores.

Sometimes you just need to stop and think about. I was not looking for argument

ptogher14 wrote: »

The regs are available to purchase by anybody. Anybody installing a socket should have a copy of them or at least be familiar with them. Again a lot of sparks arent.

I think an app version to purchase would be very handy.

Fair enough but would I be right in saying that in an average bathroom in Ireland it would not be possible to install a socket due to size limitations and proximity to zones where electrical equipment is not allowed?

It's about 10 years since I've seen a copy of the ETCI regs so I would not be familiar with them.

BlinkingLights

This is a UK inspired regulation though. Britain was very late in adopting universal RCDs on sockets. They were more common here and on the continent much earlier than the UK which only adopted them quite recently.

allthedoyles

Special precautions are necessary in the bathroom because the wet surroundings pose a greater risk of electric shock than anywhere else in the house. For this reason, no sockets other than specially designed shaver outlets are allowed in bathrooms.
​
Portable appliances such as hairdryers, radios or heaters must not be used in the bathroom, even if plugged in outside the bathroom.

https://www.esbnetworks.ie/staying-safe/safety-at-home/bathroom-safety-tips

Stravos Murphy

I must remove my TV from my bathroom in light of above.

Steve

Some info here on zones:

http://www.reci.ie/Portals/0/27594a_RECIx.pdf

Tuco88

ptogher14 wrote: »

The regs don't state you can't a socket in a bathroom or any electrical device for that matter. They can't be within a certain range of a sink, shower etc. There's different zones. You could have an IP rated socket closer to a sink than a standard socket.

Take a toilet block in an office. They'll have hand dryers Automatic towel dispensers etc. All in a bathroom but not within a zone

Putting a IP socket close to a sink makes no real sence imo, what's the point? I can still plug my toaster into it and try to dry the dishes in it.

No socket (not a shaver) in a bathroom is just plan common sence and good practice. If a child decided to plug a radio into it next to a sink or bath is it that handy?

Tuco88

ptogher14 wrote: »

The regs don't state you can't a socket in a bathroom or any electrical device for that matter. They can't be within a certain range of a sink, shower etc. There's different zones. You could have an IP rated socket closer to a sink than a standard socket.

Take a toilet block in an office. They'll have hand dryers Automatic towel dispensers etc. All in a bathroom but not within a zone

Putting a IP socket close to a sink makes no real sence imo, what's the point? I can still plug my toaster into it and try to dry the dishes in it.

No socket (not a shaver) in a bathroom is just plan common sence and good practice. If a child decided to plug a radio into it next to a sink or bath is it that handy?

ptogher14

Yes aido you'd be correct there.

dazed+confused

karloseqm wrote:

Sorry but that make no sense to be honest. They should change law you can make plug next to mirror to use dryer. If 200 million Europeans using plugs in bathrooms why Irish or English shouldn't? That's another stupid law not proof my anyone , I ask electrician to install and he told me that's dangerous. I can't agree with him

Our electrical regulations afford us some of the safest homes in the world. Don't feel bad if your country of origin is behind us in terms of safeguarding your family's safety, I'm sure they will catch up with us one day.

karloseqm

karloseqm wrote: »

Sorry but that make no sense to be honest. They should change law you can make plug next to mirror to use dryer. If 200 million Europeans using plugs in bathrooms why Irish or English shouldn't? That's another stupid law not proof my anyone , I ask electrician to install and he told me that's dangerous. I can't agree with him

You are absolutely correct. There is a 'thing' in Ireland and the UK about this. Electricians here are horrified by the idea of plugs in the bathroom, but they are normal most other places in the world - albeit a certain distance from the sink (I think 60cm). And the cord pulls here are a joke...and the separate hot and cold taps...
Sounds like a committee in little england setting rules, which we then ape.

mel.b

Comin from australia where we also have powerpoints in bathrooms i've always found the lack of the to be strange and annoying. However the majority if houses would also have safety switches installed...https://www.sa.gov.au/topics/energy-and-environment/using-electricity-and-gas-safely/safety-switches. Do irish houses have safety switches?

SteM

mel.b wrote: »

Comin from australia where we also have powerpoints in bathrooms i've always found the lack of the to be strange and annoying. However the majority if houses would also have safety switches installed...https://www.sa.gov.au/topics/energy-and-environment/using-electricity-and-gas-safely/safety-switches. Do irish houses have safety switches?

Irish houses have trip switches, looks like the same thing to me.

rorymcgrory

0lddog wrote: »

There is nothing Lol about this at all.

It is the norm in most of Europe that small to mid size apartments have washing machines located in the bathroom.

In my experience it is a good location for same

I'm not Lol'ing at the presense of the washing machine in the bathroom. Its the state of the room I'm laughing at. Have you noticed the decor? Its like something out the movie Borat filmed in Kazakhstan.

Mountainsandh

dazed+confused wrote: »

Our electrical regulations afford us some of the safest homes in the world. Don't feel bad if your country of origin is behind us in terms of safeguarding your family's safety, I'm sure they will catch up with us one day.

Rubbish.

I grew (yes, as a child) with plug sockets in the bathroom, and was told about the dangers of electricity + water. People are not numpties, and the few that are will find another way to hurt themselves. (I'm French)

As a result of Irish regulations I have an extension lead pulled into my bathroom with a socket much more exposed to splashes than if it were on the wall.

Worse exposure to danger for my kids and I than if sockets were installed, but needs must.

Maybe after Brexit, we will follow some more modern European norms instead )

exaisle

ptogher14 wrote: »

Take a toilet block in an office. They'll have hand dryers Automatic towel dispensers etc. All in a bathroom but not within a zone

That's different to a domestic bathroom in that there's no bath (or shower).

http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/bathroom-zones-ip-rating

BlinkingLights

I was googling around on it and one of the issues is that BS1363 13 amp plugs perform exceptionally poorly when wet.

The design of the rewirable plugs in particular will put you at serious risk of shock if they're handled with wet hands due to the proximity of the internal components to the exterior case of the plug which and the specific design of the plug body - relatively loosely fitting cover, fuse carrier and conductors tightly positioned behind the surfaces etc.

They wouldn't comply wirh modern appliance insulation standards for example and would be considered Class I or, at least just not fully compliant with the low voltage directive anyway. They certainly don't meet double-insulation norms for a non grounded body device.
Whereas EU non grounded moulded plugs are considered to comply with Class II (double insulated standards etc). There are some odd exemptions for legacy connectors and fittings that wouldn't be acceptable for appliances or modern designs.

I would suspect the previous round pin UK plugs were probably similar as they had a very similar design to modern square pin versions just without fusing.

CEE 7 plugs have generally been moulded on to most appliances since the early 1960s and because of the design of recessed sockets which give it a sleeve & pin type effect more like an industrial plug (completely preventing contact with fingers) they're generally that bit safer to handle if you've wet hands.

So unfortunately this is one area that UK plug aren't quite as uber-safe as billed.

There's a lot of nonsense about how much safer they are because they're fused. The reality is that the fuse is only there because of 32amp ring circuits and is often so slow acting that it will not blow before certainly a 20A MCB on a typical profile will trip. They might have minor advantages where someone overloads an extension lead and they'll melt (eventually) when 13 amps is exceeded for long enough. They also have absolutely no role whatsoever in shock prevention.

Polarisation is also not as relevant as you'd think - all appliances sold in Europe (including light bulb holders) must be safe in either polarity and many cord connectors used here (figure of 8) aren't polarised either.

ptogher14

exaisle wrote: »

That's different to a domestic bathroom in that there's no bath (or shower).

http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/bathroom-zones-ip-rating

OK take a shower room and changing rooms in an office block.

Female ones usually have hair dryers.