no sockets in bathroom

Mountainsandh

Stoner wrote: »

No my points were that risk assessments are carried out and I tried to give you some reasons, it is a discussion thread after all, but house wiring has to cover a large array of people, electricians and are not set up commercially amongst other things to remove these measures on a house per house basis.

They happen all the time in the industrial environment, where say there is someone responsible for the design, most contractors don't have this facility or carry the necessary public indemnity insurance to make these calls calls, but domestic cabling and houses don't have that, the house has to be fit for use.
So if say I was the engineers employed on your house electrical design , could I make a case that you promised to dry yourself before using and electrical appliance in the bathroom, or that you'd dry the appliances etc, what happened if you never washed , but had people over who did.
At the end if the day it would be difficult to make a case to not do this, marginal and all as the two cases might be.

Last post, promise :

I think you misunderstood me, I was not suggesting that electricians should humour customers and break the safety regulations. I was suggesting however, that being the most qualified and informed, they were the ones who may open a discussion with relevant authorities on the validity of such regulation.

Risk assessment is fine within the context of people being satisfied that they can use their facilities just fine as the rules dictate.

When I said my stupidity may be used, I wasn't getting back at anyone on here calling me stupid, I was trying to point out that I know my extension lead is not a safe option, and yet I'm doing it.
I'm doing it because I need a plug in my bathroom and there is none.
If there was a safer plug option, more useful than just the shavers', I would have gone for it.
I'm doing something unsafe because whatever job is available to me within the regulations, it does not suit.

So ironically, people like myself could be putting themselves in a more dangerous situation as a result of over-cautious safety regulations. I'm sure I'm not the only one, I bet you girls with straighteners would pull a lead if they've no mirror in their room, and so on.

Just like some people still use their phone behind the wheel, or refuse to wear their seatbelt, or people eat rare meat despite Safe Food advice ... We all make bad decisions sometimes, or at least we all make decisions that could turn out to be bad.

In this case, from what I gather on this thread, there would be an option to have a less restrictive regulation with safer hardware in people's bathrooms.
I just don't understand how anyone can advocate for more stringent rules when another option is available.

BlinkingLights

I actually think most Irish / UK types don't associate appliance use with the bathroom.
It's kind of a faux-pas to bring appliances in there so most hair drying / styling is done in bedrooms / at a dressing table.

Steve

Mountainsandh wrote: »

So ironically, people like myself could be putting themselves in a more dangerous situation as a result of over-cautious safety regulations

Yes, this is very true. Not only about electricity but pretty much everything we do these days. From design of consumer appliances to cars, the onus ( legally ) is on the designer & seller to make it stupid proof. The problem with that is it encourages complacency and diminishes perceived risk and actually makes the user stupider in my opinion. This is not directed at you personally in any way, just a general observation.

It's like if every car had a big spike in the middle of the steering wheel pointing at your face, and seatbelts were illegal, it would pretty much end road accidents and speeding overnight.

Bruthal

Steve wrote: »

.
It's like if every car had a big spike in the middle of the steering wheel pointing at your face, and seatbelts were illegal, it would pretty much end road accidents and speeding overnight.

Possibly, but...

driving at 100kph and hitting someone head on can mean near instant death. It happens frequently somewhere, the risk is always there, but everyone still does it.

BlinkingLights

It is worth noting Ireland has one of, if not the, lowest rates of domestic / residential electrocutions in the world.

We've had a history of what has been a combination if aspects of IEC / Cenelec and IEE British derrived regulations which has generally meant a cautious approach to fittings and earthing but coupled with more continental practices like typically using more radial circuits and much earlier adoption of RCDs the the UK.

Britian went from basically not required to being required on nearly everything since 2008.

Both countries are pretty much the only ones in the world to have earthing at every electrical outlet etc etc most European countries still have lots of obsolete ungrounded sockets etc etc and they'll happily accept modern 16 amp grounded plugs without connecting the earth at all if used in a flat socket without grounding clip/ pin.

The absolute universal shuttering of sockets is also a huge achievement in terms of child safety. All sockets are shuttered here and have been in place on BS style sockets since at least the 1940s. There's no version of the rectangular pin sockets without these of any age.

The bathroom regulations assume that bathrooms are small enough to have potable appliances and wet bare feet too close together.

Modern BS plugs aren't any more or less water resistant than normal Schuko continental plugs.
The issue I brought up is that the regulations would likely take account for lowest common denominator safety level which is the original BS1363 plug which is not sealed and has no sheathed pins. It did carry a shock hazard when handled with wet hands.
All plugs do some degree. None should be handled with wet hands as they are not IP rated at all unless they're kitted out wirh some kind of special outdoor / splash proofing special versions.

The systems we use strive to be as safe as possible and I don't think we can really downgrade them.

The rules do actually allow sockets in very large bathroom if they're way outside the proscribed zones.

As for the 2 pin shaver socket - it's an isolating transformer. You are incredibly well shock protected wirh that and it was designed for an era when people used to shave with wet hands and a shaver plugged directly into the mains. Even early toothbrushes used full 230V mains.

The purpose of those sockets was to prevent direct galvanic connection between a hand held shaveer and the mains.

It's less relevant now as shavers are almost all rechargeable and toothbrushes certainly are.

The rules are very conservative and could be expanded to take account for developments of technology, but they absolutely not going to just roll them back unless what replaces them is safer.

We still also apply site electrical safety rules for construction sites that are way beyond anything required by EU safety rules, IEC or Cenelec. Portable tools here are required to be connected at 110V 50Hz on a centre tapped transformer. Your tools basically have two lives, each of which is about 55V to ground and 110V between the two.

The result of that is if you cut a cable, the voltage to earth is limited to 55V and you've the isolating factor of a transformer too.
Only fixed equipment without trailing flexes is supposed to be connected to 230V RCD protected supplies whereas elsewhere in Europe that's allowed with hand tools.

Lumen

Stoner wrote: »

Yes, only registered electrical contractor can do these work legally now

Thanks. I couldn't find reference to works carried out by the owner/occupier in the Electricity Regulation Act, 1999 or S.I. No. 264 of 2013 ELECTRICITY REGULATION ACT 1999 (RESTRICTED ELECTRICAL WORKS) REGULATIONS 2013)...

...but in Decision Paper CER/13/147 (Decision on the Scope of Restricted Electrical Works) from the Commission For Energy Regulation is says:

"The implementation of this decision will mean that all Controlled Electrical Works, as currently defined, in a domestic setting can only be carried out by a REC. There will be no legal exemption for the owner/occupier."

We don't normally legislate against self-harm but I guess this is important because the owner/occupier is not the only one to be put at risk by poor electrics.

Fortywatt

Stoner wrote: »

Yes, only registered electrical contractor can do these work legally now

I'm not sure that that is correct in all cases.

Section 9E of the Electricity Regulation Act 1999 states that "designated electrical works" can be carried out only by registered electrical contractors (section 9E of the Electricity Regulation Act 1999).

However, S.I. 264 of 2013 states that "designated electrical works" do not include "Minor electrical works including the replacement of an electrical accessory such as a light switch, the replacement or relocation of a light fitting where the existing circuit is retained, the provision of an additional socket to an existing radial circuit, or electrical works which do not require the issuance of a completion certificate under section 9D of the Act".

BlinkingLights

The other thing to bear in mind is differences in earthing systems. TT is used in France and IT (isolated) in parts of Scandinavia.

We use TN-C-S type earthing here and create equipotential zones where all of the plumbing is earthed and bonded to the grounded supply neutral which is grounded at multiple points along its route back to the transformer.

It's possible that may be a concern in bathrooms as you'll get a perfect earth here through plumbing due to bonding. So stray currents may be a genuine concern, but love plumbing is incredibly unlikely.

Mixing systems without knowing exactly what's involved is sometimes very dangerous. There are swings and roundabouts and assumptions and choices made in design.

TN-C type earthing is considered very safe because you won't get floating neutrals and you'll get very definite circuit breaker trips in a fault to earth. This tends to limit fire risk too.

French homes need to have a 300mA disjuncteur (RCD) to mimic this effect because they're TT systems where neutral isn't bonded to ground. There's a risk in the French system that certain faults may not trio a breaker.

The Irish and British systems tend to he designed to failsafe without being over dependent on devices like RCDs. It's a philosophy of keeping things simple.

You have to remember that RCDs are reliable to a point. You still need good underlying design

Risteard81

BlinkingLights wrote: »

We use TN-C

Not legally. You are not permitted to have a PEN conductor within the installation. TN-C is a very specialist type of installation along with IT and is not generally permitted.
TN-C-S and TT are used in the south of Ireland, with TN-C-S the overwhelming leader. In the north, TN-C-S, TN-S and TT are used.

jester77

I have 4 sockets at my bathroom sink, 2 electrical toothbrushes and charging station for razor are always plugged in. Free one is used for the hair dryer. It must be a serious inconvenience not having any in the bathroom.

Pretty much standard where I live and I have never heard of anyone getting a shock.

karloseqm

Why people think socket in bathrooms can kill and they won't kill in kitchen or living room ? Stop joking nothing will shock you , that's only tradition and have nothing to do with safety , nobody will put hairdryer to shower only lunatic

Risteard81

karloseqm wrote: »

Why people think socket in bathrooms can kill and they won't kill in kitchen or living room ? Stop joking nothing will shock you , that's only tradition and have nothing to do with safety , nobody will put hairdryer to shower only lunatic

You are far less likely to be wet and naked outside of the bathroom.

BlinkingLights

Risteard81 wrote: »

Not legally. You are not permitted to have a PEN conductor within the installation. TN-C is a very specialist type of installation along with IT and is not generally permitted.
TN-C-S and TT are used in the south of Ireland, with TN-C-S the overwhelming leader. In the north, TN-C-S, TN-S and TT are used.

I had my letters the wrong way around there typing on a phone. I had meant TN-C-S

IT is only permitted in very specific circumstances like hospital operating theatres and explosive environments. However, its very common in Scandinavia.

TT is the absolute norm in France where as it's considered a "if you have no other choice" approach here only if the local network can't support TN-C-S

The only place I've seen TN-C used was in East Germany. It linked the earth and neutral directly behind the sockets!! There was basically a link wire from the neutral terminal on a "Schuko" socket to the grounding clips cross connecting them at the socket itself.

Stoner

Fortywatt wrote:

I'm not sure that that is correct in all cases.

You are correct, but I was referring to these works as in the works I recommended as needing to be completed, rewiring and rerouting cables and shower circuits

karloseqm

All EU countries have plugs in bathrooms but in UK and Ireland is easy to be electric shock ? Do you know that to be shock you will need to put 2 metal wires to wholes ? Otherwise you can't be shock

BlinkingLights

There is no common EU position on any of this.

For example, in Italy it's quite common for bathrooms not to have sockets. It depends on their size.

My small bathroom in Belgium only had a transformer based shaver socket and not a normal French style 16 amp grounded socket as you'd typically find in a French bathroom.

In the Belgian rules transformer protected shaver socket are allowed in zone 2 ans normal sockets only in zone 3.

UK rules specifically ban them within 3 meters of the bath or shower. Is this the same in Irish rules ?

There's logic to the Irish and British rules on this.

The one thing that annoys me though is why exactly the UK and Ireland need to put plugs on shavers and toothbrushes that are just a tiny bit different to CEE 7/16 "Europlug" meaning you can plug a European device into a shaver socket here but you can't plug a UK spec shaver or toothbrush into European sockets, including multi standard shaver sockets that often accept Europlug, US and Aussi/Chinese plugs.

It makes no sense as European shaver plugs perfectly fit Irish/British bathroom shaver sockets anyway.

I can't see any reason why most likely the UK rather than Ireland is compelling manufacturers to produce different versions of those devices for the UK. It makes it impossible to travel with them.

I actually went out of my way to buy my toothbrushes when I'm on the continent to avoid those stupid plugs as they won't fit anything other than UK shaver outlets and you end up needing two adaptors to use them --- shaver plug -- to UK shaver adaptor --- to European adaptor and all that dangerous kludge is jammed into a European bathroom socket. Where it's a flat socket like Italian bathroom outlets it often falls out!

You can actually buy a UK/IRL > Europlug shaver adapter .. although almost none of them have sleeved pins (required on the flat plugs).

Also many of the UK to European adaptors are dangerous - thin pins to make them compatible with flat, ungrounded sockets, yet have no sleeved pins. So when using them in Italy etc, they're a shock hazard.

ceegee

Out of interest does anyone know where you get a comparison of electrocution statistics for UK/Ireland vs countries with sockets in the bathroom?

BlinkingLights

ETCI maintains a database for Ireland but seem to have stopped updating their website since 2013

Zero fatal accidents involving sockets from 2004 to 2013

https://www.etci.ie/accidents/tables.html

Most fatal accidents here involving electricity seem to be related to direct contacted with overhead lines or construction related accidents.

Very few involve domestic appliances and where they have its been lack of RCD protection and odd circumstances like carrying out DIY work on appliances etc and one case of an earthing issue.

In general your domestic electrical installation in Ireland is one of the least likely things to kill you.

BlinkingLights

Grim reading but there's the list of circumstances of fatalities (does not list people's details don't worry)

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Topics/Electricity/Elec_Fatalities_2014.docx

Mountainsandh

I can attempt to answer that if it's ok for me to post.

It's very hard to find the French statistics all in one spot, I have been looking at several documents trying to collate them together, but there are so many variables it's difficult.

From this document, we learn that 38 persons died of electrocution in France in 2011 (the numbers have progressively gone down as the years go). A large number of these were babies. (that's probably just domestic cases, work cases are separate, and I've also seen that lightning accounted for some of the deaths).

It seems that in France, the largest number of injuries and deaths from electricity are related to babies playing with plugs, lights... and men engaging in DIY.

Document above mentions that

Lieu de l’accident et activité au moment de l’accident
La majorité des électrisations a eu lieu au domicile (88 % des accidents). L’activité au moment de
l’électrisation était une activité de jeux (34 %), de bricolage (26 %), une activité domestique (19 %)
et une activité vitale (5 %). Une « Autre activité » était mentionnée dans 15 % des accidents par
courant électrique.

The majority happen at home (this is of "civilian" electrocutions, not work related). The activity the person was engaged in at the time was : Playing (34%), DIY (26%), a domestic activity (19%) and a vital activity 5%. "Other" accounted for 15%.

http://invs.santepubliquefrance.fr/content/download/77068/283300/version/2/file/TR15L112+(%C3%A9lectrocution+CepiDc1979_2011+Epac2004_2011).pdf

I think because French people tend to buy more run down houses, and renovate themselves (often second homes), it leads to a greater number of DIY deaths in males.

According to this site, 63% are children under 5. 24% of accidents happen in the kitchen, 9% in the living room, 8% in the stairs, 7% in the bedroom, and 4% in the bathroom.
http://www.deco-travaux.com/electricite/dangers-electricite-domestique.html

I'll post if I find better statistics, I'm a bit in a rush right now.

edit : forgot to mention, the number I see everywhere for average per year is 200 deaths due to electricity. That's including work related accidents and lightning, and domestic.

Cerco

BlinkingLights wrote: »

Grim reading but there's the list of circumstances of fatalities (does not list people's details don't worry)

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Topics/Electricity/Elec_Fatalities_2014.docx

Think this could merit a stickie in this forum.
Might discourage people from taking risks.

BlinkingLights

In general the key differences between here and France.

Older Irish wiring and fittings are much, much safer than old French ones. They're universally earthed and they're child proof and always have been. A lot of older French ones are a little scary. (I lived in France too.)

Ireland averages 2.7 deaths due to electrocution per year at least in the years from 2004-13.

French population is 66.03m
Ireland: 4.595m

So France is 14.37 times bigger.

So to scale up the Irish system to France is an average of 38.79 deaths per year.

So Irish electrical installations are more than 515% safer!!

I think we should stick with the status quo of Irish OCD regulations...
Modern to-code French stuff is fine - it's just the plethora of old systems and hack jobs that worry me over there.

Steve

BlinkingLights wrote: »

It's possible that may be a concern in bathrooms as you'll get a perfect earth here through plumbing due to bonding. So stray currents may be a genuine concern, but love plumbing is incredibly unlikely.

I'm curious about this one. What regs apply when the water supply is qualplex?

I moved a sink a few years ago and cut off the copper inside the wall and put QP to the new location. I assumed there was no requirement to EQB the sink fittings. (It would be mad to do so IMO)

BlinkingLights

If nothing else, this thread does show that if you've small kids and are on holiday in continental Europe, actually check the sockets are safe.

If you're renting a villa / house / apartment / gite etc check there's an RCD on the panel and check the sockets are shuttered. Check they are all recessed (not flat, obsolete without earth as these have shock hazards when used with plugs without sheathed pins)

Make sure there are no plugs or adaptors lying around and if possible blank off sockets with protector plugs if you can't be sure your kids aren't going into shove something into them or play with potentially dangerous plugs.

Also even as an adult, handle plugs with care. If it's an old installation or a country like Italy with flat 3 sockets keep your fingers away from any exposed pins!

I got a bad shock in Italy caused by a UK adaptor plug that had unsheathed pins. Italian plugs are all quite safe but this yoke was designed for use in a recessed socket and I reached down to grab something beside the bed and touched the pin!!

That's the normal Italian plug (also comes in 16amp version with wider spaced pins).

http://www.patelec.eu/portfolio/543-italian-plug-3-pole-e-straight/

0lddog

IIRC In some parts of Europe domestic supplies are 3 phase

Imagine the ecstacy of the Gals 'n Guys on the heat pump & EV forums if it were like that here !

I guess it kinda muddies the safety stats between countries

BlinkingLights

Yeah, 3-phase is actually fairly common, especially in parts of Europe where air condition loads are common.

You'll notice that in Spain in particular, the most basic single phase service is often just 16amps and 3-phase is 16 amps per phase.

You'll tend to find cookers and hobs are connected to three phase, but in reality the elements are 230V they're just using different phase + neutral combinations.

You'll see various different connection possibilities on some cookers sold here too - mixtures of different possible multiphase hooks ups. They're not all 3P + N.

shianto

I know this thread is old but I thought that given the subject maybe it was best to post this questions here if it should be moved please do so or advise and I can repost where appropriate...

The question is:

I know that standard sockets are not allowed in the shower room I am building so normally I could not install a washer and dryer but what if the devices were wired directly so there was no socket? Do the regulations explicitly forbid that? Obviously electric showers, extractor fans are 'hard' wired, so can other devices be done in that way?

Harry Palmr

Deaths by electrocution 1995-2017 in detail for anyone interested. One socket incident I think.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Topics/Electricity/Dangers_of_Electricity/Electrical_Fatality_Statistics/Description_of_Elec_1996_Fatalaties_to_2017.pdf

punisher5112

shianto wrote: »

I know this thread is old but I thought that given the subject maybe it was best to post this questions here if it should be moved please do so or advise and I can repost where appropriate...

The question is:

I know that standard sockets are not allowed in the shower room I am building so normally I could not install a washer and dryer but what if the devices were wired directly so there was no socket? Do the regulations explicitly forbid that? Obviously electric showers, extractor fans are 'hard' wired, so can other devices be done in that way?

New builds have washer and dryer and toilets together in one room.

shianto

punisher5112 wrote: »

New builds have washer and dryer and toilets together in one room.

Interesting. I had considered that, but there is something about that idea that just doesn't feel right... Can anyone point me to the regulations please. I went to the ETCI website but the site is shut down...

Sorry just to add, the distance between the shower and an appliance that was 'hardwired' i.e. no socket in would be 1.7m. In case some can point out the yes no to that simply...