no sockets in bathroom

Andy From Sligo

I would say now that the exterior of washing machines and tumble driers are metal .... now , I know they are earthed - but if earth failed on them and the 'cabinet' became live ... and in a damp bathroom with all that moisture/high RH humidity ...

The electrics in a bathroom tend to be double insulated , they tend to be plastic casing on the outside - extractor fans plastic, bathroom fan heater plastic casing, a lot of ceiling lights plastic shades on them, even the casing of electric shower plastic - plastic non conducting ... metal highly conductive

Why even would you want to put yourself in any potential danger? water and electrics and humans dont mix ... high moisture in the air and electrics and humans dont mix

Now then a bath or shower produce terrible beads of water/condensation/moisture in an enclosed room - even more so if there is no extractor fan and/or window to let the steam to escape .

A washing machine and tumble dryer in a downstairs toilet without a shower may be OK because you are hardly going to get steam from shower or bath if there is no bath or shower in that room - however (lead length permitting) I would no way put a 13a 3 pin socket inside the toilet - i would chop off moulded, plug put wire through hole in the wall wire 13a plug back on, and plug into a socket on the other side of the wall (say if it was a socket in the hall or bedroom) and all one lead .. no joins, no junction boxes , no connectors - a straight power lead from washing machine to the socket outside the room.

Now dont forget that your washing machine as its heating up (especially to 90c wash) will produce moisture in the air , your tumble drier (vented and condenser types) as it dries the wet clothes will produce moisture in the air in the room ... admittedly maybe not as much as a shower or bath but it still will be present and you will want to also fit an extractor fan to that room or let window open to let the moisture escape .

OK so you have your washing machine and your tumble dryer in your room with your toilet and they are plugged into 13a sockets outside of the toilet , thats good ... now even if your consumer box (fuse box) has an RCCB breaker or an RCCBO protection , do yo know I would still use a 13a RCD plug in breaker (the ones you get from DIY shops for lawn mowers etc) in those sockets in the hall or bedroom or room you have the washing machine and tumble drier plugged into - so plug the RCD into the socket and then plug your washing machine or tumble drier into the RCD. - so then you have your RCCB in the consumer unit detecting imbalance between Live & Neutral and Earth and then your RCD will detect presence of live AC on earth and (hopefully trip)

You got to realise that plastic does not conduct electricity (although even that could do if its wet/ got steam on it) so even if you had a stray live wire if its touching a dry plastic casing chances are you will be ok because the live phase is not completing the circuit to earth (using you as a conductor) - whereas if you has a stray live in a washing machine/tumble dryer and the whole of the metal cabinet became live (which it could do if the earth failed in some way - say if earth wire came loose on a terminal inside the machine or in the plug) or the protection (RCCB /RCD didnt trip / was faulty) then again a hazard - would you really like a potential like this in your bathroom?

Disclaimer: I am not an electrician, so maybe other electricians on here might be able to pick up/criticise my post - I have worked in the past in the UK on an electrical trade counter in a large building supplies firm and had to go on courses on basic electrical courses ... talking of which i have been reading up earlier on in this thread that some people have said that the UK was slow on uptake of using RCD equipment in consumer units - well I worked in this builders providers firm on the trade electrical wholesale counter from 1988 - 1991 and I can remember fulfilling orders for builders coming in wanting WYLEX minature circuit breakers and Main RCD switches in their units even way back then for new builds or if they were re-wiring houses.

2011

shianto wrote: »

I know that standard sockets are not allowed in the shower room I am building so normally I could not install a washer and dryer but what if the devices were wired directly so there was no socket? Do the regulations explicitly forbid that?

You are permitted to install socket outlets in a bathroom. However it is not permitted to install them within zone 0, 1, 2, and 3. Dimensions of the zones are provided along with diagrams in ET101:2008. The problem is that most bathrooms are not large enough to extend beyond zone 3.

Obviously electric showers, extractor fans are 'hard' wired, so can other devices be done in that way?

Yes, although there are a few conditions.

punisher5112 wrote: »

New builds have washer and dryer and toilets together in one room.

Nothing wrong with having sockets in a room containing a toilet and a sink. Issues arise when a shower or bath is installed, see extract:

701.11 The particular requirements of this section apply to the electrical installations in locations containing a fixed bath or shower and to the surrounding zones as described in this section.

punisher5112

@ 2011. I understand that was just letting other poster know they can in scenario outlined.

2011

punisher5112 wrote: »

@ 2011. I understand that was just letting other poster know they can in scenario outlined.

I never doubted you.

shianto

2011 wrote: »

You are permitted to install socket outlets in a bathroom. However it is not permitted to install them within zone 0, 1, 2, and 3. Dimensions of the zones are provided along with diagrams in ET101:2008. The problem is that most bathrooms are not large enough to extend beyond zone 3.

Can someone tell me or point me to a diagram that shows where zone 3 ends, the only references I can find show where zone 2 ends? Thanks

Andy From Sligo

this any use? it for UK but should be same for Ireland shouldnt it?

Risteard81

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

this any use? it for UK but should be same for Ireland shouldnt it?

Not the same as the UK deleted Zone 3 from the Regulations over a decade ago when the 17th Edition was published. Earlier this year the 18th Edition was published to take effect from 1st January.

_Brian

shianto wrote: »

I know this thread is old but I thought that given the subject maybe it was best to post this questions here if it should be moved please do so or advise and I can repost where appropriate...

The question is:

I know that standard sockets are not allowed in the shower room I am building so normally I could not install a washer and dryer but what if the devices were wired directly so there was no socket? Do the regulations explicitly forbid that? Obviously electric showers, extractor fans are 'hard' wired, so can other devices be done in that way?

We combined our laundry and downstairs toilet when we were designing our own house and the electrician had no problem once the devices were permanently wired.

We feelmits a good use of space.

2011

_Brian wrote: »

We combined our laundry and downstairs toilet when we were designing our own house and the electrician had no problem once the devices were permanently wired.

We feelmits a good use of space.

As per post #123 (above) sockets are permitted in a room with a toilet and wash hand basin, the issue only arises if there is a bath or a shower in the same room.

Risteard81

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

this any use? it for UK but should be same for Ireland shouldnt it?

Also as an aside apart from that not being up-to-date for UK Regulations (IET/IEE Wiring Regulations), it was also inaccurate. There is no zone specifically surrounding a sink - the sink is just in whatever zone it's in.

jhenno78

Interesting thread

2011 wrote: »

You are permitted to install socket outlets in a bathroom. However it is not permitted to install them within zone 0, 1, 2, and 3.

Would it be allowed to have an IP rated socket for a washing machine inside a zone?

2011 wrote: »

As per post #123 (above) sockets are permitted in a room with a toilet and wash hand basin, the issue only arises if there is a bath or a shower in the same room.

Are you saying there's no additional rules for a toilet(toilet and sink only)?

2011

jhenno78 wrote: »

Interesting thread

Would it be allowed to have an IP rated socket for a washing machine inside a zone?

No.

Are you saying there's no additional rules for a toilet(toilet and sink only)?

Yes.

Andy From Sligo

if you got a downstairs toilet with a sink in it ... and sockets in that room (toilet) you can still plug in a plug and switch on a socket with wet hands

if you have a tumble drier it can create damp as its working, and a washing machine at 60-90c create stream/humidity, even more so in a small confined downstairs toilet especially if you close door and dont open window or turn on an extractor fan - after a while you see how beads of condensation could form on a socket if you had it in a bathroom . - in the normal kind of thinks what a lot of people tend to do is leave their washer and dryer plugged in at the socket with the socket switch on and just turn on and off washing machine and tumble drier with the button on the front of the fascia of the washing machine or tumble drier (which in itself some people say its a fire hazard having washing machines plugged in and turned on at the socket at all times) - now if you had a scenario in your downstairs toilet whereby your washer or dryer started smelling funny, like it was burning or smoke coming from it and you went to unplug it from a socket in that room and the socket and plug was covered in dripping condensation and you went to pull it out with your hands ... well that would be akin to plugging in and out appliances with wet hands and you wouldnt/shouldnt do that (IE risk of electric shock as live travels through condensation on plug/socket through you to earth/ground)

Also a lot of people's downstairs toilets might not be kept at room temperature - it could be very cold in the winter , colder than other rooms of the house ... so then more potential for steam/condensation forming inside the room as the hot air (steam/condensation from washing machine and tumble drier) hitting the cold air of the room and forming into water droplets on every surface (and that surface could have a 13a socket on it if sockets are allowed in downstairs toilets) - so those sockets then would be sopping wet.

Now it could be argued then, "why then can you have washing machines and tumble driers plumbed into kitchens then? - they have a sink in the kitchen and suffer from condensation due to cooking/washing up/laundry and could touch sockets by the sinks and above the counters/worktops with wet hands?" - well yes they do but your kitchen normally is larger area, is kept more a comfortable heat and maybe suffers less from as much condensation as a bathroom produces and thats why maybe there are different rules (if there are, I am not too sure of the Irish regulations) as to why you cant install laundry electrical equipment into bathrooms or downstairs toilets

- I can see the logic in a way . (again I dont know the ins and outs of regulations in the irish wiring ) but when I studied the basics of UK wiring years ago (and maybe those regs have changed now) the only electrics you were allowed in a bathroom or downstairs toilet was :

A bathroom wall fan heater or infra-red tube heater with a cord switch
The heater to be placed so up high on wall so that impossible to touch (whether accidentally or on purpose) and a pull cord switch made of string and on a fused spur - but the spur not to be placed in the bathroom/toilet itself - either fused spur in the loft or cable from heater to go up into loft and exit in bedroom other side of bathroom wall. - Infra-red heater to be earthed - bathroom fan heater normally made of plastic outer casing so double insulated and not needing an earth.

A ceiling light in the centre of the room in correct zone , not above bath or shower - out of reach so you cannot touch (whether accidentally or on purpose) when you are in or stepped out of bath or shower. bulb must be enclosed (this was not only to protect the light fitting from condensation and damp but also back in the day when i was working in trade electrical in the late 80's people would put either a 40w or 60w or 100w incandescent GLS bulb in their bathroom light fittings - LED lighting was unheard of .. I am even trying to remember if we sold CFL bulbs at that time, I cannot recall.. I know we sold fluorescent striplights ... anyway yeah the cover on the bathroom ceiling light had to be covered, not just to stop damp or a person touching live lamp holder or something but for safety if the bulb shattered . If you had a shade/cover on the lamp and it did explode then the shards of glass would more than likely stay in the shade and not explode all over the bathroom . what could explode a bulb in a bathroom (and I heard stories of this happening) was that when the GLS bulbs got past a certain wattage (think it was 15w or 25w) the surface temperature of the envelope of the bulb gets hotter and if condensation/steam hits the bulb and the droplets of water gets on the glass it shatters the bulb (in the old days when there were no LED bulbs at christmas time councils and shops used to put coloured 25w bulbs hanging across the streets/road ... if you substituted a bulb for a 60w coloured bulb say if the rain hit it, it would more than lightly explode - so you had to put 25w max bulb in them or 15w pygmy bulb ... so anyway back to bathroom - if you put a 100w bulb in an open fitting without a shade and steam from bath/shower/sink rose and hit bulb next thing BANG! - bulb explodes ad showers you in hot shards of glass and you run out of bathroom naked with third degree burns

No wall switch for the bathroom ceiling light to switch it on or off ... not inside / not just outside the bathroom door or anywhere - nope it had to be a 5amp pull cord ceiling switch by the bathroom door. with the electrics of the switch all up on the ceiling, no chance of your fingers touching the live terminal (whether they be wet or dry or whatever) and just switcth the light on and off using non conductive string cord . was so surprised when I moved to Ireland in the 1990's only to see 5a wall light switches inside the bathroom or just outside the bathroom door :eek: ready to turn on and off with damp fingers! - i didnt see any bathrooms with ceiling light pull cord switches fitted in the bathrooms at all, and when i asked an electrician once I think he was insinuating that the pull cord switch idea was dangerous ?!? - (maybe on the point of view that maybe children could get caught up and strangled in the cord??) and i think i even at that time of moving over couldnt find a 5amp pull cord light switch at any of the trade electrical factors - strangely think they had 45amp ones though at that time , for electric showers and the like.

and lastly the only other piece of electrics permitted in the bathroom (according to UK regs) was a shaverlight - with an isolating transformer in it - and pull cord - there were 60w incandescant lights with a shaver socket built in, but with no isolating tranny in them and these were not permitted in bathrooms but in bedrooms over a mirror - again when I moved to ireland if I went to houses to the bathroom they had these 60w incandescent tube type with these type without the transformers in them above the bathroom sink! and even some without a pull cord switch on them but the push button type! - I really dont know what was happening with the Irish regs at that time of if they ever even existed (mind you this was rural locations I went to these premises - maybe the larger towns and cities adopted a lot different / safer electrical codes in their dwellings)

so thats about it what all you could have in your bathroom:

Ceiling light,
Pull cord light switch,
Fan heater/or infra red heater,
shaver-light

and then of course an electric shower at about 8kw.

nothing else- no sockets, no wall light switches, no spurs in the bathroom ... thats in , nothing else -- might sound OTT to other countries who have sockets and switches and hair dryers in bathrooms and everything but to me I think it was/just as it should be .. the less electrics in the bathroom the better (even if it is a bit of inconvenience to some , at least its safer in my opinion)

2011

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

if you got a downstairs toilet with a sink in it ... and sockets in that room (toilet) you can still plug in a plug and switch on a socket with wet hands

True, but the same applies to other rooms that contain a sink such as a utility room and kitchen.
This risk also applies to hair dressers, laboratories, workshops etc....

if you have a tumble drier it can create damp as its working, and a washing machine at 60-90c create stream/humidity, even more so in a small confined downstairs toilet especially if you close door and dont open window or turn on an extractor fan - after a while you see how beads of condensation could form on a socket if you had it in a bathroom .

Exactly the same argument applies to a utility room. These rooms tend to be small, without a window

now if you had a scenario in your downstairs toilet whereby your washer or dryer started smelling funny, like it was burning or smoke coming from it and you went to unplug it from a socket in that room and the socket and plug was covered in dripping condensation and you went to pull it out with your hands ... well that would be akin to plugging in and out appliances with wet hands and you wouldnt/shouldnt do that (IE risk of electric shock as live travels through condensation on plug/socket through you to earth/ground)

Not really sure what your point is. Are you suggesting that dryers and washing machines should not be installed in small rooms?

Also a lot of people's downstairs toilets might not be kept at room temperature - it could be very cold in the winter , colder than other rooms of the house ... so then more potential for steam/condensation forming inside the room as the hot air (steam/condensation from washing machine and tumble drier) hitting the cold air of the room and forming into water droplets on every surface (and that surface could have a 13a socket on it if sockets are allowed in downstairs toilets) - so those sockets then would be sopping wet.

Already covered by ET101:2008 as follows:

13.5 External Influences
The design of the electrical installation shall take into account the external influences to which it will be subjected.



^^^ I think that this is a great catch all regulation, it seems to deal with all of your concerns.

Andy From Sligo

@2011 - yep all your points duly noted . but I still think just because utility rooms have sink in them and sockets and could suffer from condensation and that barbers and the like all have sockets fitted we shouldnt loose the run of ourselves and start saying it is OK to start putting 13a sockets in bathrooms at home and downstairs toilets

Shelli2

cursai wrote: »

Couldn't live without it. For shaving and for Bluetooth waterproof speaker. Luxury!!!

Hey, can you tell me what speaker you have that works with shaver socket please? I'd love one for my bathroom

Thanks.

Frunchy

Just use an extension lead, I'm sure nothing bad will happen.

2011

Shelli2 wrote: »

Hey, can you tell me what speaker you have that works with shaver socket please? I'd love one for my bathroom

Thanks.

There are lots of speakers that you are permitted to install in bathrooms, ceiling speakers that you can Bluetooth connect to would be just one example.

See link:

https://www.ie.screwfix.com/philex-12302r-wireless-bluetooth-speaker-ceiling-kit.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=Shopping&gclid=CjwKCAjw6-_eBRBXEiwA-5zHaa-cQfDE0X9bvMyBG1fxivJ_l0qVj7phy6qM9QP7pC4iGOBu0nQkkRoCAu4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

2011

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

@2011 - yep all your points duly noted . but I still think just because utility rooms have sink in them and sockets and could suffer from condensation and that barbers and the like all have sockets fitted we shouldnt loose the run of ourselves and start saying it is OK to start putting 13a sockets in bathrooms at home and downstairs toilets

It’s not me that is making this call, I am merely explaining what the regulations state.

Andy From Sligo

2011 wrote: »

It’s not me that is making this call, I am merely explaining what the regulations state.

sure and I am not saying / didnt say that it is you making this call. - I still would not personally agree with having 13a 240v AC sockets in the bathroom just because someone wants to plug in a hairdryer/radio/washing machine etc for safety reasons.

Andy From Sligo

Shelli2 wrote: »

Hey, can you tell me what speaker you have that works with shaver socket please? I'd love one for my bathroom

Thanks.

not condoning this and you didnt hear me saying this but years ago I used to have a bath (have showers these days) and I used to love listening to music whilst having a soak. Had a battery radio, no batteries but had one of these 2pin euro to 13a travel adapters and just plugged it into the shaverlight above the mirror and it was grand - if you plug too high wattage something into shaver-light socket (with an isolating transformer) the transformer normally has a thermal self resetting fuse/shut off thing and cuts off power - (well a lot of the well known shaverlights have that protection built in ) but in any case a transistor radio is not gonna draw that much power from AC . you can buy the travel adaptor plugs almost anywhere / everywhere ... just dont go plugging in hairdryers and washing machines into the shaver-light

meercat

Bluetooth bathroom mirrors are available too,
You can get cheaper ones than this


http://www.davies.ie/clearance/Summer-Sale/encore-bluetooth-mirror

EdgeCase

In most continental countries they are allowed, although not always right next to the sink. Each country has its own historical regulations around these things and also there are different interpretations of common CENELEC and IEC rules translated into national regs.

I'm not entirely sure why the Irish and British regulations are so strict on this, other than there was much later adoption of RCDs in the UK than in much of Europe (or Ireland). It would be highly dangerous to have a non-RCD protected appliance sitting in a bathroom.

Also, I have heard that the BS1363 plugs have a particular issue with being handled with wet hands due to the way they're designed, particularly the re-wirable types. The live components are extremely close to the surface and the plug body is absolutely not IP rated in anyway. Whereas on the continent the vast majority of plugs have been moulded since the 1960s.

Ireland also uses TN-C-S earthing and bonded plumbing and so on, while other countries may use TT or even IT (not unusual in parts of Scandinavia).

You'll also find that different regulation bodies focus on different hazards. For example, Irish and British plug/socket/switch in the bathroom regulations have no issue whatsoever with the use of an electric shower in the actual shower cubicle and that is only IP X4.

I was just flicking past the French regulations and they don't allow that in the "volume 1" (zone 1) area in their wiring regs. Only 12V appliances.

In general though Irish regulations have been consistently strict on this for decades, I don't think there's been much of a rational for relaxing the regulations either. In general having things like hairdryers in bathrooms isn't a great idea and you can design your house a bit better to dry your hair in the bedroom.

Also hardly anyone uses plug-in razors or toothbrushes these days. They're all recharagble so, at best you just need a charge point in the bathroom.

Back in the old days, mains powered razors (and even toothbrushes) were quite common which is why we have the isolating transformer sockets. They made what was a potentially very dangerous activity relatively safe.

Andy From Sligo

have heard of RCD's RCCB's being faulty , and earths being faulty and they are not generally checked on something like an annual basis or something (thats a bit of a point actually , there are loads of "test your smoke alarm is working" but nothing normally of "test your RCD/RCCB works in your consumer unit works properly")

so at least if all (or nearly all) of your electrical appliances are out of reach in the bathroom and the RCD/RCCB or earth fails there is less of a chance of getting a shock with wet hands because you cant reach them with wet hands and wet floor

so also a bathroom gets very steamy and condensated - if damp gets into an electrical fitting there could easily be an arc / short and catch fire - as far as I know the RCCD / RCCB /MCB might not trip in this circumstance . I was reading the other day though that its a requirement in some countries to fit Arc / fault devices now to the consumer units .. its not in the irish regs and the UK regs i dont think at the moment but i think they are coming - very expensive devices but could help prevent a few fires caused by electrical (and damp devices) devices arcing / shorting out causing a fire.

EdgeCase

Arc fault devices are becoming fairly standard in the USA, but that being said they've a very specific risk due to wooden structured buildings. In general American wiring regulations take risk of fire extremely seriously as they're often sitting in rather flammable structures, whereas in Ireland and much of Europe they're usually burried in plaster.

We are using more wooden frame structure here though in recent decades so I guess there's a strong argument in favour of them.

I know I would rather have more safety devices on my consumer unit than just the bare minimum.

For example, I had RCBOs fitted for my oven and hob circuits as there was absolutely no reason why not to do this and they were suggested in the installation instructions. There's no leakage to ground from modern ovens and certianly none from induction jobs and it's the one appliance that I've ever had a shock from. I'd rather the RCD trip than have some on going fault.

I would much prefer to have RCD protection on all circuits using RCBOs

Arc fault devices will drop in price as demand increases but in the big scheme of things, if they're reasonably priced, I would definitely install them.

Andy From Sligo

EdgeCase wrote: »

Arc fault devices are becoming fairly standard in the USA, but that being said they've a very specific risk due to wooden structured buildings. In general American wiring regulations take risk of fire extremely seriously as they're often sitting in rather flammable structures, whereas in Ireland and much of Europe they're usually burried in plaster.

We are using more wooden frame structure here though in recent decades so I guess there's a strong argument in favour of them.

I know I would rather have more safety devices on my consumer unit than just the bare minimum.

For example, I had RCBOs fitted for my oven and hob circuits as there was absolutely no reason why not to do this and they were suggested in the installation instructions. There's no leakage to ground from modern ovens and certianly none from induction jobs and it's the one appliance that I've ever had a shock from. I'd rather the RCD trip than have some on going fault.

I would much prefer to have RCD protection on all circuits using RCBOs

Arc fault devices will drop in price as demand increases but in the big scheme of things, if they're reasonably priced, I would definitely install them.

I was thinking about this one and why the US would require them with their wooden houses , but then i have thought of stories I have heard of fires starting up in the lofts in the UK and taking hold of the wooden joists and everything and people who put wooden chipboard floor in their attics/loft spaces - and really once there is a spark up in the loft space and it takes hold it spreads so quick that your best bet is just to get the hell out and call the brigade .

these fires I have heard sometimes that start in the loft space are sometimes where mice/rats chew through the house wiring or there junction boxes up in the loft or ceiling rose where a screw has come loose and there is arcing .

So for that , even though I know we have brick/stone built houses I think a great addition for a consumer unit .. yes especially when they come down in price. Surely they must end up hovering around the price of a RCCB eventually when they do become more used?

quokula

So I just took delivery of an electric toilet seat https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01LRNGCX2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_esS5BbR578YTG which is sold by a reputable company and has lots of reviews etc.

But it turns out it has a standard three pin plug, which as far as I can tell makes it impossible / illegal to use? I hadn’t really done any research, I assumed it could be wired into the bathroom cabinet above the sink or something like that. How exactly are you supposed to set up one of these? I’ve no problem paying an electrician to do it properly, I just don’t know what properly is.

2011

quokula wrote: »

So I just took delivery of an electric toilet seat https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01LRNGCX2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_esS5BbR578YTG which is sold by a reputable company and has lots of reviews etc.

But it turns out it has a standard three pin plug, which as far as I can tell makes it impossible / illegal to use? I hadn’t really done any research, I assumed it could be wired into the bathroom cabinet above the sink or something like that. How exactly are you supposed to set up one of these? I’ve no problem paying an electrician to do it properly, I just don’t know what properly is.

Is there a bath or shower in the room you intend on installing this in?

quokula

2011 wrote: »

Is there a bath or shower in the room you intend on installing this in?

Yes there is. Though we have a separate shower room so the shower over the bath in this room is never used, the bath itself is used occasionally.

2011

quokula wrote: »

Yes there is. Though we have a separate shower room so the shower over the bath in this room is never used, the bath itself is used occasionally.

Then the restrictions apply within specified zones.