Leaf hunt

slave1

Hi,

I inadvertently posted mid another thread but wanted to take my Nissan Leaf hunt into it's own thread as I'm getting the feeling there are a lot in my boat which is the folk edging towards their first electric car.

Background
This will be a second family car, for herself (drive a Honda CRV 1.6l diesel myself which will satisfy all long runs), driving pattern is constant school/work/shopping/kids activities in and around 2-4miles per run.
Annual mileage is estimated at around 8,500 miles.
Occasional longer runs to nearby towns etc., all of which will be achievable with current range.
Should she require a longer run then my car is always available and the Leaf will satisfy my work commute no bother.
Replacing a Toyota Avensis 1.6l petrol

We are already on night rate so no work to be done there and our usage is approximately 60%night:40% day.

Based upon the following assumptions I estimate a €1.5k annual saving versus the Avensis..

• 8,500miles
• Current MPG of 42.8 on the Avensis
• Current road tax of €591 on the Avensis, €120 for the Leaf
• Petrol cost of €1.40/L
• 100 mile range of Leaf on full charge
• 9.08c per kW to charge the Leaf, €2.72 to fully charge a 30kW Leaf
• I assume all charging done at home, public charging will be an upside

I'd love to buy it now but....

• The Avensis NCT is up in July so I want to wait until it passes that before attempting to sell
• I want to go for the 30kW version due to a combination of greater range and perhaps resale of a 24kW will be more difficult
• The 30kW is currently outside my Budget

The car will be a UK import (have brought 3 cars in previously so aware of the process), given the FX rate (sterling already purchased) and zero VRT, I don't mind bringing her from the North but the prices currently are not justifying this.

At a minimum I'll go for the Acenta, if the price is right then Tekna and/or 6.6kW capability.
She (who must be obeyed) does not want a silver/white/black car and preferably one that does not have those white/cream interiors.

I think that's it, I'm actively reading various fora to learn but there remains open questions and hopefully my experience and questions will assist others..

My first question is around a spare wheel.
I would like the assurance of a spare wheel at home so I can quickly sort out any punctures, they appear hard to source, does anyone know of a space saver wheel of the dimensions to fit the Leaf?

unkel

If it only ever does local driving and going to the nearest town (and no need for fast - 4 hour - charging at home), then I would just buy the cheapest Leaf you can get for about €6k - €7k

It will satisfy all your needs. You only need a decent runabout as your second car, not the 30kWh and not the 6.6kW charger. An early one is still the current model and it is a cheap and relatively risk free entry into electric motoring. Why spend 2 or 3 times as much?

Change your electricity supplier as soon as you can BTW. Night rate should only be 7.5-8c per kWh incl. VAT

slave1

Thanks for reply, I meant to say that the allure of the 30kW is also the battery warranty, if I buy say a 2014 24kW then the battery warranty expires in 2019 whereas a 2016 30KW goes out to 2024...

24kW would have a level of range anxiety for us, a 30kW would eliminate that anxiety so hence a 30kW (if I have the patience!!)

I'm with Bord Gais so after I use my Tesco vouchers (effectively 50% off) the rate drops but as I wanted my estimates to err on the conservative side I used the billing rate.

unkel

slave1 wrote: »

24kW would have a level of range anxiety for us

Really? From your OP I do not get the impression that it would ever have to do 100km or anything near it? And that you always have the other (first) car available for any longer trip

I can understand battery (warranty) anxiety. It used to be my biggest fear of electric cars. Not so much now that batteries have proven to be more durable than anyone expected and that repairs are do-able, not necessarily expensive and even possibly DIY jobs (and there's never a need for a full battery replacement at main dealer$' prices)

mordeith

slave1 wrote: »

Thanks for reply, I meant to say that the allure of the 30kW is also the battery warranty, if I buy say a 2014 24kW then the battery warranty expires in 2019 whereas a 2016 30KW goes out to 2024...

24kW would have a level of range anxiety for us, a 30kW would eliminate that anxiety so hence a 30kW (if I have the patience!!)

I'm with Bord Gais so after I use my Tesco vouchers (effectively 50% off) the rate drops but as I wanted my estimates to err on the conservative side I used the billing rate.

How much is your work commute? I'm not sure how range anxiety fits into your
concerns given the requirements you have laid out as a second car?

KCross

slave1 wrote: »

Hi,
My first question is around a spare wheel.
I would like the assurance of a spare wheel at home so I can quickly sort out any punctures, they appear hard to source, does anyone know of a space saver wheel of the dimensions to fit the Leaf?

Space saver wheel... read my post here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101969898&postcount=21


Like others have said, I cant see how you have range anxiety with the mileage you are talking about, particularly since you are a 2 car household.

To get a 30kWh Leaf it would have to be a 2016 car. Thats going to be alot more moola than say a 2014 one which will do the same job and alot less depreciation to worry about.

In relation to battery warranty.... its VERY unlikely you would have to claim on battery warranty in Ireland. Our climate is mild and the warranty only kicks in when the battery goes down to 70% and that does not appear to be happening in this country at all but do get a 2014 or later car as that battery appears to be better.

Minimum 2014+ Leaf which has the much improved battery. You can find them as early as late 2013 but you need to know the difference, usually darker interior and separate heat/AC button , early leaf only had Auto and ac on the climate control.

Steering has Eco button, early leaf did not have Eco on the steering. Those are just a few of the ways to tell the difference.

You can get a new battery installed though should you eventually need one. Today's cost installed is about 5,500.

Get a leaf with all the toys, SVE will not cost much extra if at all, it just makes them far easier to sell on.

The 6.6 Kw will also not add much if any to the cost 2nd hand but again make them far easier to sell on 2nd hand. Highly useful and can charge 50 - 60% of the battery from a public AC point in about 2 hrs and mean a lot less trips to the fast charger.

The 2013+ also has a more efficient heater and is generally a nicer car inside and the SVE has things like led Headlights which I leave on all the time, heated seats /mirrors and heated steering.

You will want to drive it a lot more than the 1.6 Diesel CRV so don't skimp on gadgets, it's not necessary.

isnottheword

If you're looking at this from a cost perspective (i.e. return on investment), you need to go low budget/2nd hand. If you can manage the cheapest Mk 1.5 (there were a few of them towards the tail end of 2013 but otherwise for definite from 2014 onwards), then that should work.

As others, I'm equally confused as regards your range anxiety. What are the longest regular journeys you will be doing?

On the battery warranty, that only applies to ...is it 75%?? (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Other than that, you can buy a usb dongle for buttons and install leaf spy app - and do a proper test on the battery before purchase. So long as you get what you pay for, and it's still fit for purpose range wise, what's the issue?

There's also potential for battery reconditioning (only one specialist that I'm aware of right now but that market will increase), battery replacement (the hope would be that the battery cost would come down to something reasonable) or the potential to upgrade to a 30kW battery (has been discussed on one of the irish EV FB groups recently).

As regards a space saver, go on to ebay or amazon and search for a mitsubishi lancer compact (of the correct vintage)- 2nd hand with jack and wheel brace - that will do that job.
Alternatively, theres' a guy right now on the IEVOA FB site actively trying to sell an original leaf spare (which he spent a fortune on), jack and brace for approx 100 euro.

slave1

unkel wrote: »

Really? From your OP I do not get the impression that it would ever have to do 100km or anything near it? And that you always have the other (first) car available for any longer trip

I can understand battery (warranty) anxiety. It used to be my biggest fear of electric cars. Not so much now that batteries have proven to be more durable than anyone expected and that repairs are do-able, not necessarily expensive and even possibly DIY jobs (and there's never a need for a full battery replacement at main dealer$' prices)

Longest would be an Athlone - Mullingar round trip which tips the 100km and it's a trip she does the odd time, Winter conditions would put this borderline.
As I said in OP, we want to plan on zero use of Public Chargers given observed all day use of some around Athlone e.g. Train Station has free parking if charging and there's another spot that has the same car on charge every time we've past it mid-week.

Another perspective on this is that we would have a newer car, worth more, and given the effort not a huge premium over the year I'm looking at (142 to 161) but I have to wait for more 161's to come off lease in the UK because they are hovering around the £15.5k-£16k at the minute, I feel they will come down a few grand later in the year and therefore worth waiting for.

slave1

Deleted User wrote: »

Minimum 2014+ Leaf which has the much improved battery. You can find them as early as late 2013 but you need to know the difference, usually darker interior and separate heat/AC button , early leaf only had Auto and ac on the climate control.

Steering has Eco button, early leaf did not have Eco on the steering. Those are just a few of the ways to tell the difference.

You can get a new battery installed though should you eventually need one. Today's cost installed is about 5,500.

Get a leaf with all the toys, SVE will not cost much extra if at all, it just makes them far easier to sell on.

The 6.6 Kw will also not add much if any to the cost 2nd hand but again make them far easier to sell on 2nd hand. Highly useful and can charge 50 - 60% of the battery from a public AC point in about 2 hrs and mean a lot less trips to the fast charger.

The 2013+ also has a more efficient heater and is generally a nicer car inside and the SVE has things like led Headlights which I leave on all the time, heated seats /mirrors and heated steering.

You will want to drive it a lot more than the 1.6 Diesel CRV so don't skimp on gadgets, it's not necessary.

Thanks, I'm only looking at 2015+ and after as much extras as possible

slave1

isnottheword wrote: »

If you're looking at this from a cost perspective (i.e. return on investment), you need to go low budget/2nd hand. If you can manage the cheapest Mk 1.5 (there were a few of them towards the tail end of 2013 but otherwise for definite from 2014 onwards), then that should work.

As others, I'm equally confused as regards your range anxiety. What are the longest regular journeys you will be doing?

On the battery warranty, that only applies to ...is it 75%?? (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Other than that, you can buy a usb dongle for buttons and install leaf spy app - and do a proper test on the battery before purchase. So long as you get what you pay for, and it's still fit for purpose range wise, what's the issue?

There's also potential for battery reconditioning (only one specialist that I'm aware of right now but that market will increase), battery replacement (the hope would be that the battery cost would come down to something reasonable) or the potential to upgrade to a 30kW battery (has been discussed on one of the irish EV FB groups recently).

As regards a space saver, go on to ebay or amazon and search for a mitsubishi lancer compact (of the correct vintage)- 2nd hand with jack and wheel brace - that will do that job.
Alternatively, theres' a guy right now on the IEVOA FB site actively trying to sell an original leaf spare (which he spent a fortune on), jack and brace for approx 100 euro.

I'm not on FB but tried to see that spare without joy, what is the correct Lancer vintage do you know?

isnottheword

slave1 wrote: »

I'm not on FB but tried to see that spare without joy, what is the correct Lancer vintage do you know?

08-14 Lancer - check the scrappers. Other than that, check ebay. As regards the guy on Facebook, that guy is actively looking for a buyer right now for an original Leaf Spare and a decent quality jack and wheel brace. I'm sure you know someone on facebook that can log in (that's if you want to work in advance of purchase of your car). N.B. Please be aware that the Acenta comes in 16" but the Tekna comes in 17" inch.

slave1 wrote:

Thanks, I'm only looking at 2015+ and after as much extras as possible

Well, it doesn't sound like the mileage you are doing justifies the outlay (based on the info you have supplied) - if you are to achieve a $$ efficient return on investment - but that's totally your call.

slave1

isnottheword wrote: »

08-14 Lancer - check the scrappers. Other than that, check ebay. As regards the guy on Facebook, that guy is actively looking for a buyer right now for an original Leaf Spare and a decent quality jack and wheel brace. I'm sure you know someone on facebook that can log in (that's if you want to work in advance of purchase of your car). N.B. Please be aware that the Acenta comes in 16" but the Tekna comes in 17" inch.

Forgot about the different sized wheel, well at least that puts that to bed for a while, no point in getting one until the model is known for certain but at least I know there is a compatible wheel that I can get further along the line, cheers

KCross

slave1 wrote: »

Forgot about the different sized wheel, well at least that puts that to bed for a while, no point in getting one until the model is known for certain but at least I know there is a compatible wheel that I can get further along the line, cheers

It's the same space saver wheel regardless of 16" or 17" wheels. See my earlier post.

slave1

isnottheword wrote: »

Well, it doesn't sound like the mileage you are doing justifies the outlay (based on the info you have supplied) - if you are to achieve a $$ efficient return on investment - but that's totally your call.

Yep, when I started tracing the 30kW cars coming onto Autotrader in the Acenta and Tekna model they were North of the €16.5k before XMas, now they are appearing below the €16k mark, with the new UK reg kicking in after April I think they will come down more.
It is a big decision between the 30kW and 24kW but I'm also thinking Brexit and the current €5k VRT exemption availability, if/when these cease in 2018+ I won't have the financial opportunity to import in a few years time so want this to be my last import.
Buy a 2016 30kW and drive her 10yrs+

listermint

slave1 wrote: »

Yep, when I started tracing the 30kW cars coming onto Autotrader in the Acenta and Tekna model they were North of the €16.5k before XMas, now they are appearing below the €16k mark, with the new UK reg kicking in after April I think they will come down more.
It is a big decision between the 30kW and 24kW but I'm also thinking Brexit and the current €5k VRT exemption availability, if/when these cease in 2018+ I won't have the financial opportunity to import in a few years time so want this to be my last import.
Buy a 2016 30kW and drive her 10yrs+

Fair amount of what ifs there. New reg is already in a month btw

slave1

Life is full of ifs!

KCross

listermint wrote: »

Fair amount of what ifs there. New reg is already in a month btw

Not in the UK, it isn't. UK prices drop in March. That's the month their reg changes.

KCross

slave1 wrote: »

Yep, when I started tracing the 30kW cars coming onto Autotrader in the Acenta and Tekna model they were North of the €16.5k before XMas, now they are appearing below the €16k mark, with the new UK reg kicking in after April I think they will come down more.
It is a big decision between the 30kW and 24kW but I'm also thinking Brexit and the current €5k VRT exemption availability, if/when these cease in 2018+ I won't have the financial opportunity to import in a few years time so want this to be my last import.
Buy a 2016 30kW and drive her 10yrs+

Brexit will take 2yrs so I wouldn't worry about that yet

VRT exemption is good for another 5yrs, I believe, as announced in the last budget.

slave1

Okay, ye are starting to convince me to look at a loaded 142 model but in any case I'm waiting until my Avensis passed it's NCT so more time to review install of powerpoint at home etc

isnottheword

KCross wrote: »

Brexit will take 2yrs so I wouldn't worry about that yet

VRT exemption is good for another 5yrs, I believe, as announced in the last budget.

+1. Listening to the commentary on it earlier today, the suggestion was that the whole thing is so complex, the divorce (brexit) will take longer than the 2 years originally set.

slave1 wrote:

so more time to review install of powerpoint at home etc

i bought one privately/separately in the UK - at the same time as I bought my 141 last August. There's cash to be saved if you can source one over there that's no longer in use (because owner doesnt need it any more, perhaps they've moved, perhaps they've changed cars/charging standards, etc.).

slave1 wrote:

Yep, when I started tracing the 30kW cars coming onto Autotrader in the Acenta and Tekna model they were North of the €16.5k before XMas, now they are appearing below the €16k mark,

There's still a big chunk of depreciation to drop off there in quite a short space of time if you can hold off for longer. I got my 142 Acenta (with 6.6kW charging) home (inclusive flight/ferry, etc) for €9,300 last August.

Gumbo

slave1 wrote: »

Okay, ye are starting to convince me to look at a loaded 142 model but in any case I'm waiting until my Avensis passed it's NCT so more time to review install of powerpoint at home etc

There's only 3 trim types, so it's an easy decision. Buy the SVE as it has all the options available.

Marcusm

KCross wrote: »

Not in the UK, it isn't. UK prices drop in April. That's the month their reg changes.

1March is the reg change!

KCross

Marcusm wrote: »

1March is the reg change!

Correct, I've corrected it. Thanks.

Go with the max range you can afford and spec.

As I said you will want to drive it a lot more than the CRV yourself , so public charging will most likely be unavoidable and in my opinion the 6.6 is essential for this larger battery, in my view essential regardless, better to have it than want it.

The 30 Kwh also charges faster from the fast chargers a really good advantage.

The 30 Kwh charged to 80% is the same as the 24 Kwh charged to 100%, the 30 Kwh will get to 90% in the same time it takes the 24 Kwh to get to 80% both from about 18% charge.

Go with the max you can get now and it should last a very long time you can get value this way rather than buying cheap now.

Guaranteed, the Honda will be used a lot less, especially when you realise how cheap the Leaf is to run and how good it is to drive.

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

Go with the max range you can afford and spec......Go with the max you can get now and it should last a very long time you can get value this way rather than buying cheap now.

That's one viewpoint. It's not one I agree with - but everybody's circumstances are different. The first thing you establish is what are the journeys you are going to be doing on a regular basis with this vehicle? Secondly, is a 24 kW capable of doing those journeys comfortably?

Furthermore, 30kW sounds advanced right now - but in a very short while, it's not going to seem so remarkable of an advancement (i.e. IF 24kW suits your needs generally right now, you can always skip a generation or two before reinvesting in your next updated (and far more capable) EV.
If yes, then buy a 24kW now for small money. If no, you can buy a 30 kW now for more $ than you may otherwise need to (if you can hold out for a while) OR if cost is the greatest concern, hold off for a while - and monitor prices in the UK. The price you mentioned still sounds expensive to me.

It's a question of what is important to you. Everyone has their own circumstances.

With regard to 6.6kW charging, It makes for a harder shop (they're harder to find and a lot of dealers don't even state if the vehicle has the feature...usually because they don't even know!) but I'm happy I bought with. The decision of whether this is important to you or not comes down to whether you will need to use slow charge points much - and/or whether you wish to have a faster turn-around charging time when charging from home. Furthermore, it should merit for an easier car to sell on with this feature (when the time comes). Even if you don't have to use slow chargers that often, it only takes a couple of occasions and you'll find that it's more important feature to have than say moving from an Acenta model to a Tekna model.


My 2 cents. I'm not saying its right for you - you have to decide what's important first.

What if the OP actually likes the Leaf and wants to drive it more and more as he gets more comfortable with the range ?

I guarantee the 30 Kwh and it's faster charging would be very much appreciated when needed because I bet he actually will want to drive it a lot more then the CRV.

You can't beat having more range and faster charging when you need it.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

What if the OP actually likes the Leaf and wants to drive it more and more.

Good! If he bought a cheaper Leaf as a second car, he can consider buying a longer range EV next as his first car! Maybe the likes of the Ioniq this year or if its range isn't good enough then wait for the next gen EV with bigger batteries and longer range.

I really wouldn't think it's wise to spend the guts of €15k or more on a second hand Leaf now.

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

What if the OP actually likes the Leaf and wants to drive it more and more as he gets more comfortable with the range ?

The OP should decide from the outset (not afterwards!) what is sufficient to do the job. If that's a 24kW and value for money is important to him, that's what he should buy.

Deleted User wrote: »

I guarantee the 30 Kwh and it's faster charging would be very much appreciated when needed because I bet he actually will want to drive it a lot more then the CRV.

And a Tesla S and it's supercharging would be very much appreciated no doubt but (for the very same considerations), he may or may not buy one.

Deleted User wrote: »

You can't beat having more range and faster charging when you need it.

Of course you can't beat having bigger/faster/better - but all this comes with a cost. Perhaps cost isn't a concern - in which case, he should fire away as you suggest. However, if foremost amongst his buying criteria is value for money, then he should buy in at the sweet spot where the majority of the depreciation has been shed. If he needs the 30kW, then I suggest he holds out until they depreciate further (if that's practical to do so).

Of course, 30kW is better - I'd like to be driving one myself. However, there are cost implications. Furthermore, in short shrift - before we know it - nobody will see the lift from 24 to 30kW being all that impressive (once 40kWh+ comes on-stream).

slave1

Regarding myself wanting to drive it more than the CRV, this just is not practical, I had a 400km round trip with work Wednesday and I golf anywhere I can - Donegal, Dublin coast, up North etc and the Leaf would not sustain these trips.
Also, my drive to work is a straight 48km run with no traffic or lights so perfectly suited for a diesel whereas herself is in and around town most days.

For sure I will take the Leaf here and there and likely look forward to the day she needs the CRV so I can treat myself but in the main it makes more sense for me to use the CRV and herself the Leaf...

isnottheword

@slave1: So it's the 2nd car you're replacing which is providing you with an excellent mpg and with which you are clocking up low mileage per annum. With that, (if costs are the primary factor?), then you can't justify swapping it out with something that costs €16K. Cut that figure in 2 and the math may start to make since (run the numbers yourself).