Time for Dublin Bus to sell Donnybrook Depot?

Bray Head

lxflyer wrote: »

It is a strategic location from which to operate bus services across a swathe of Dublin - can you not get that?

You are looking at it far too simplistically and not in any way looking at the operational value that location gives to the bus network.

Of course I understand that. I just think there is a land value at which point it is better value for the taxpayer to sell and build elsewhere. What if it was worth €80m an acre - would your view change?

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

Of course I understand that. I just think there is a land value at which point it is better value for the taxpayer to sell and build elsewhere. What if it was worth €80m an acre - would your view change?

Sometimes you just need to accept that certain locations are of such strategic operational importance that you should not regard them as potential windfall gains.

We saw for example the Intercity train depot being located in Portlaoise for example (for purely political reasons) and which has resulted in what would have been unnecessary empty train workings every day from Heuston to Portlaoise and back for train servicing.

Similarly Connolly Intercity trains are maintained at Drogheda and no longer at Connolly (for short term cost savings) - again resulting in unnecessary empty train workings.

Spencer Dock, which could have been an ideal location for a public transport hub, and an Intercity bus station was sold off for a windfall.

I strongly believe that we have to put the strategic operational importance of these sites as the main consideration, and not some one-off windfall gain resulting in long-term operational inefficiencies.

We engage far too much in short-termism when it comes to public transport in this country and it's time that came to a stop.

Donnybrook is one of the most strategically located depots, in that it allows fast access to both ends of all routes that it operates that would be very hard to replicate from any other location.

Bray Head

I appreciate your operational perspective.

You have provided no financial perspective at all however. Is there any value at which the land should not be sold?

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

I appreciate your operational perspective.

You have provided no financial perspective at all however. Is there any value at which the land should not be sold?

I already said that in my view long term operational concerns should trump short term financial gains.

That's part of the reason our public transport is in the mess that it is, because politicians take the short term option rather than looking at it from a long term strategic perspective.

In my view that site is operationally far too strategically significant to the bus service to be looked at as a potential windfall.

You can't compare relocating a TV/Radio centre with relocating a major bus depot.

One is fairly easy to relocate. The other should be viewed as a strategic element of our public transport infrastructure, and not a property lot.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Bray Head wrote: »

lxflyer wrote: »

It is a strategic location from which to operate bus services across a swathe of Dublin - can you not get that?

You are looking at it far too simplistically and not in any way looking at the operational value that location gives to the bus network.

Of course I understand that. I just think there is a land value at which point it is better value for the taxpayer to sell and build elsewhere. What if it was worth €80m an acre - would your view change?

Can the current depot be replaced one for one with a new depot?  If no will we need two new depots? Will the two new depots cost more to run than the current depot? How much will it cost to develop the new depots to the requirements of Dublin Bus.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Duplicate posting.

masculinist

Move the depots to the M50.

The excuse someone gave early in the thread about buses being stuck in traffic on the way to the city centre isnt really valid because thats why buses are given bus lanes.
I'd say an additional benefit would be that bus drivers themselves would be able to live more cheaply around the M50 or outside of it without the headache of a long commute. This in itself would lessen the assault on the living standards of drivers, reduce the threat of future industrial action and allow public transport to be more economically viable [in conjunction with common sense measure like this being implemented across the whole organization], Some things just make sense not to be congested.

If one must keep the inner city depots then I would start a programme of building multi story coachparks which would free up half the site for development. The Donnybrook and other depots as far as I can see are all single storey wastes of space.
Multi storey would free up a lot of land on that site. Land which could be used for something more beneficial to the economy.
I'll be 'cheeky' and suggest Traveller accomodation or social housing because of the hypocritical nature of the local electorate [I'm a graduate of UCD and know it well], who vote for that so long as its not in their backyard then it ends up in the backyard of someone who didnt vote for that. However I'd be happy just with the idea that public money was being efficiently used.

Lets remember its not only the inefficient use of space thats the problem ,. theres a very poor supply of homes. We need to start building. In fact my idea would create a lot of building jobs without any subsidy. Imagine a multi storey coach park which can also reach underground taking up a fraction of the space and then a new Donnybrook village stretching from the Depot to RTE.

LXFlyer

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Can the current depot be replaced one for one with a new depot? If no will we need two new depots? Will the two new depots cost more to run than the current depot? How much will it cost to develop the new depots to the requirements of Dublin Bus.

Donnybrook would in all probability require a minimum of two depots to replace it, given its size and spread of routes. As I've said before, by virtue of its location, the depot provides access to both ends of the routes that it operates that frankly could not be matched by any other location.

People seem to forget bus services start at both ends of routes - not one, and as such you need depots that facilitate that.

MJohnston

Are air rights not a possibility in a lot of these depots?

LXFlyer

masculinist wrote: »

Move the depots to the M50.

The excuse someone gave early in the thread about buses being stuck in traffic on the way to the city centre isnt really valid because thats why buses are given bus lanes.
I'd say an additional benefit would be that bus drivers themselves would be able to live more cheaply around the M50 or outside of it without the headache of a long commute. This in itself would lessen the assault on the living standards of drivers, reduce the threat of future industrial action and allow public transport to be more economically viable [in conjunction with common sense measure like this being implemented across the whole organization], Some things just make sense not to be congested.

If one must keep the inner city depots then I would start a programme of building multi story coachparks which would free up half the site for development. The Donnybrook and other depots as far as I can see are all single storey wastes of space.
Multi storey would free up a lot of land on that site. Land which could be used for something more beneficial to the economy.
I'll be 'cheeky' and suggest Traveller accomodation or social housing because of the hypocritical nature of the local electorate [I'm a graduate of UCD and know it well], who vote for that so long as its not in their backyard then it ends up in the backyard of someone who didnt vote for that. However I'd be happy just with the idea that public money was being efficiently used.

Lets remember its not only the inefficient use of space thats the problem ,. theres a very poor supply of homes. We need to start building. In fact my idea would create a lot of building jobs without any subsidy. Imagine a multi storey coach park which can also reach underground taking up a fraction of the space and then a new Donnybrook village stretching from the Depot to RTE.

In case you may not have noticed, bus services start at both ends of the route, not just the outer termini. Hence you need to get buses to both ends of the route to start and finish. That's why Donnybrook is as strategically important a location as it is, as it provides easy access to both ends of the routes it serves.

Your suggestion of putting depots outside the M50 would mean a massive increase in dead running, and I'm afraid journey times are relevant in terms of building up operational rosters due to the limits imposed by EU driver hours regulations. Bus lanes will only save so much time.

You need a mix of locations - both close to the city centre and in the outer suburbs, and those that, like Donnybrook, offer fast access to both ends of routes.

punisher5112

Plenty of other places to build on.

The shed in Donnybrook is also a protected building so knocking it isn't going to happen.

Sure argument is there sell it but move where as in 10 years time people will be on saying the new one is in prime location as we are just getting busier and more homes needed.

The buses would be out of service travelling to start more then they would be in service.

What do you do when all locations are nowhere near the city which is the whole point of db then you have the issues like break downs and bus changes and many other issues which can be sorted quite quick with having a garage not a million miles away.

Bray Head

Can you point to a source to say it is a protected building?

masculinist

punisher5112 wrote: »

The shed in Donnybrook is also a protected building so knocking it isn't going to happen.

.

It needs to be unprotected then for the greater good. Protecting it doesnt do any good to me or my fellow citizens. It's elitist nonsense.

punisher5112

masculinist wrote: »

It needs to be unprotected then for the greater good. Protecting it doesnt do any good to me or my fellow citizens. It's elitist nonsense.

http://archiseek.com/2010/1953-donnybrook-bus-garage-donnybrook-dublin/

punisher5112

I think we should knock the custom house and the dail as they are prime locations also.....

Will ya stop we don't need to sell everything and rte selling off what is really public land is another atrocity.

All this will do is make some private investor or hedge fund even more money while the Irish lose part of their heritage and property that should stay all of ours.

Sam Russell

punisher5112 wrote: »

http://archiseek.com/2010/1953-donnybrook-bus-garage-donnybrook-dublin/

Note the tram tracks in the road in front of the building. If only they were still there.

punisher5112

Sam Russell wrote: »

Note the tram tracks in the road in front of the building. If only they were still there.

Very true. These and all around the city should never have been got rid of just like the trams themselves.

Imagine how well the city would look and be attractive to even more tourists.

Sad in a way.

masculinist

punisher5112 wrote: »

http://archiseek.com/2010/1953-donnybrook-bus-garage-donnybrook-dublin/

So what . Are you telling me we cant build something better in 2017 ? Theres something very neurotic about protecting a building which isnt even a 100 years old. It was originally built to serve transport needs , not to serve the fetish of some elitist morons. The original design remit wasnt :' Build us a depot for our buses which we cant ever improve upon'' . It can be demolished and improved upon therefore it should. A common sense deficit is sucking the life out of this economy. The unemployed , families whose living standards are constantly under attack and the accounts of bus company itself which fails to turn a profit doesnt give a damn about cashing in the countries pensions to protect some mass concrete structure which isnt suitable for its purpose. The design remit was a depot to serve us , Instead protecting it means we have to serve this inanimate object. So instead of having a depot , what we have is a museum. Take this logic further - we can replace all the hospitals with museums ... its a joke. Land is scarce. Unprotect it and build something better.

Middle Man

punisher5112 wrote: »

Very true. These and all around the city should never have been got rid of just like the trams themselves.

Imagine how well the city would look and be attractive to even more tourists.

Sad in a way.

The whole tram system would have required a serious upgrade, but there's really no reason why such work couldn't have been done line by line over the decades.

L1011

punisher5112 wrote: »

The shed in Donnybrook is also a protected building so knocking it isn't going to happen.

It isn't on the register of protected structures.

masculinist

L1011 wrote: »

It isn't on the register of protected structures.

Bingo. And the funny thing for me is even if it was on the register of protected structures , what would be the point for the public ? You can barely see it from the main road . It's a place for buses and oil slicks , not tour guides.

Bray Head

You would expect a few hundred but there are actually 8,700 protected structures in Dublin City. Out of what I would guess is maybe 250,000 structures overall.

You can brows the list here.

wakka12

masculinist wrote: »

Bingo. And the funny thing for me is even if it was on the register of protected structures , what would be the point for the public ? You can barely see it from the main road . It's a place for buses and oil slicks , not tour guides.

Buildings can be protected for cultural,historic or architectural significance, they don't have to have tourist attraction potential to be worthy of saving. It was the first concrete shell roof lit by natural light in the world. Surely a noteworthy achievement even though it wont be brining in tourists any time soon even if it wasnt a bus depot

Sam Russell

wakka12 wrote: »

Buildings can be protected for cultural,historic or architectural significance, they don't have to have tourist attraction potential to be worthy of saving. It was the first concrete shell roof lit by natural light in the world. Surely a noteworthy achievement even though it wont be brining in tourists any time soon even if it wasnt a bus depot

It also has a massive span without pillars.

I remember going down to see that fabulous Art Deco building that used to be the HQ of Bord Gai in Dolier St only to find it was now a TCD cafe (or something like that) but it was still in reasonable Art Deco style. That is what listing is all about.

The bus station should be listed. If they built the other bus stations to the same design as was intended, it would not be so important. They should demolish that carbuncle that Jefferson Smurfit got Sam Stevenson to build in put up in Eglington Road - wrong scale, wrong building material, dreadful.

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

They should demolish that carbuncle that Jefferson Smurfit got Sam Stevenson to build in put up in Eglington Road - wrong scale, wrong building material, dreadful.

Been plans to demolish that for over a decade. Stephenson's widow is now getting very antsy that all his buildings will be gone soon!

CatInABox

Sam Russell wrote: »

It also has a massive span without pillars.

I remember going down to see that fabulous Art Deco building that used to be the HQ of Bord Gai in Dolier St only to find it was now a TCD cafe (or something like that) but it was still in reasonable Art Deco style. That is what listing is all about.

The bus station should be listed. If they built the other bus stations to the same design as was intended, it would not be so important. They should demolish that carbuncle that Jefferson Smurfit got Sam Stevenson to build in put up in Eglington Road - wrong scale, wrong building material, dreadful.

Could be worse, could be like the great example of Art Deco that was Archer's Garage on Fenian St. Ripped down illegally, and then forced to be rebuilt in a "best guess" of what it used to be.

It's like a reanimated corpse, just something off about it now.

Sam Russell

CatInABox wrote: »

Could be worse, could be like the great example of Art Deco that was Archer's Garage on Fenian St. Ripped down illegally, and then forced to be rebuilt in a "best guess" of what it used to be.

It's like a reanimated corpse, just something off about it now.

Agree, Archers was demolished on a Sunday morning. They were forced to rebuild it, but didn't do a good job. Should have gone for a few months in the Joy where they could have studied Art Deco at their leisure.