CIE Union Fanatics/Extremists?

The J Stands for Jay

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

A person working a public transport role deserves a wage that allows them to get on the property ladder.

Which Dart station do you work in yourself?

end of the road

Red Kev wrote: »

The number of free travel passes is around 800,000. Some of these passes allow you to take a companion and if you add this to the total you get 1.2m or thereabouts. It was in the Irish Times a couple of weks ago and there were similar figures about 3 years ago.

You need to have an "opt-in/opt-out" for the FTP's. If you want it on your card, then you should pay €1 per week nominal fee, this should be deducted at source, i.e. before it's paid out as a welfare payment.

You want a FTP, then pay €1 per week, you don't want it, then continue to collect.

The problem is that whatever political party attempts to instigate this, it will be faux opposed by those in opposition who will promise to reinstate it the next time they get elected in. And the merry go round will continue. So no party will dare touch it at the end of the day.

for which they would be correct. it would cost more in admin charges to implement a 1 euro charge then it would to leave things as they are. for what it is worth i am thinking about whether i would be in favour of the companion pass being abolished with only the disabled/elderly person needing the pass haveing it all though i recognise that it might cause other issues if it was to happen.

The Rape of Lucretia

Saw some union guy quoted today saying drivers earned 46,000 a year. Is this correct ?
Bloody hell. No wonder the company is going bust. You just cannot pay someone that much for driving a bus. Its utterly ludicrous. Any independent paying a reasonable wage can beat the hell out of them commercially. 46k is really taking the taxpayer for a ride ( ;-) ). The best thing truly is to close the shambles down and be done with that kind of garbage once and for all.

end of the road

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Saw some union guy quoted today saying drivers earned 46,000 a year. Is this correct ?

no . it isn't. about 35 to 40. and that is after one is years in the job.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

You just cannot pay someone that much for driving a bus. Its utterly ludicrous.

you can pay the wages i mentioned above for driving a bus, and they are being paid. no amount of screaming and crying over it will change the reality.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The best thing truly is to close the shambles down and be done with that kind of garbage once and for all.

it isn't as
1. the people will have no service for god knows how long until the replacement options are lookd through, sorted and implemented.
2. it would cost the tax payer a hell of a lot more in the long run all for nothing.
3. the "garbage" (as in unions looking after their members) will thankfully not go away because be is let go to the wall just because begrudgery

Weepsie wrote: »

Market rate? When they have in effect a monopoly on the market and industry they are setting the market rate.

For a near guaranteed pension, relatively generous holiday allowances and job security it should be expected that wages would in fact be lower but no. The last 20 years have seen unions go after the cash every time. Never about conditions, always about the cash.

Unions in principle are a good thing, but certain Irish unions have long since forgotten their principles and have had their hand in the race o bottom we are currently in

unions have nothing to do with the race to the bottom, they protect the workers from it where it exists.

Hilly Bill

pablo128 wrote: »

My brothers trained for 4 years each as electricians and plumbing trade. Bus Eireann drivers get paid more than them.

Should get a better union so.

pablo128

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Should get a better union so.

Why would you say that? They earn great money as it is.

And that's the whole point. They had to train for 4 years each with numerous exams. Bus drivers merely have to do a driving test and CPC.

Hilly Bill

Does the plumber have the lives of 50 people in his hands on every journey? manovering a bus through tight situations takes some skill. You don't become an expert at driving once you passed the test, it's only the start of it.

suicide_circus

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Does the plumber have the lives of 50 people in his hands on every journey? manovering a bus through tight situations takes some skill. You don't become an expert at driving once you passed the test, it's only the start of it.

Buses aren't even on rails!!

Hilly Bill

No, but their jobs are.

eeguy

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Does the plumber have the lives of 50 people in his hands on every journey? manovering a bus through tight situations takes some skill. You don't become an expert at driving once you passed the test, it's only the start of it.

What does that have to do with anything?

pablo128

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Does the plumber have the lives of 50 people in his hands on every journey? manovering a bus through tight situations takes some skill. You don't become an expert at driving once you passed the test, it's only the start of it.

I drive a truck from time to time. Its just like a bus with no seats or windows. I haven't killed any of my cargo yet. Do I get 47k a year to drive it?

No, and nowhere near it.

suicide_circus

If you don't pay the BE drivers 47k you'll have mass carnage on the roads. How private operators manage to drive in a straight line on their wages is anyone's guess

The Rape of Lucretia

suicide_circus wrote: »

If you don't pay the BE drivers 47k you'll have mass carnage on the roads. How private operators manage to drive in a straight line on their wages is anyone's guess

Great point.

There is of courseno justification for this salary. It is just bullyboy tactics exploiting the position as a public service, and a neanderthal mindset hangover from its roots as a state employment.
It needs to be completely wiped out.

end of the road

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Great point.

There is of courseno justification for this salary. It is just bullyboy tactics exploiting the position as a public service, and a neanderthal mindset hangover from its roots as a state employment.
It needs to be completely wiped out.

there is every justification for the salary, otherwise it wouldn't be paid. no bully boy tactics or exploiting anything. to wipe it out would lead to no service on all but the intercity routes for a long time while everything is sorted out to implement replacements, costing the economy and removing employment opportunities, causing problems for people getting to hospitals and other unquantifiable issues. this tax payer does not wish to pay for the issues it would cause.

The Rape of Lucretia

end of the road wrote: »

there is every justification for the salary, otherwise it wouldn't be paid. no bully boy tactics or exploiting anything. to wipe it out would lead to no service on all but the intercity routes for a long time while everything is sorted out to implement replacements, costing the economy and removing employment opportunities, causing problems for people getting to hospitals and other unquantifiable issues. this tax payer does not wish to pay for the issues it would cause.

It would be a good investment.
It is the perpetuation of this kind of institutionalised inefficiency and waste of public money (see education, healthcare, Gardai, etc, as well) that erodes standards of public service for all - while those same employees bitch about the high taxes they have to pay. Any legacy service like this that can be put to death is a short term pain well worth enduring.

magentis

This is what private companies and route tendering by a transport authority bring to public transport,corruption.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/competition-body-investigates-report-of-bid-rigging-in-public-transport-services-775671.html

Brendan Bendar

end of the road wrote: »

there is every justification for the salary, otherwise it wouldn't be paid. no bully boy tactics or exploiting anything. to wipe it out would lead to no service on all but the intercity routes for a long time while everything is sorted out to implement replacements, costing the economy and removing employment opportunities, causing problems for people getting to hospitals and other unquantifiable issues. this tax payer does not wish to pay for the issues it would cause.

Like everywhere else, the unions in CIE as it was need to realise that market forces dictate the pay scales and conditions.

The transport industry is probably the last bastion of the kind of thinking which elevates wages by manipulating overtime and sick leave .

All it takes is a person with the balls to take them on, and a public who are tired of being exploited.

Not sure if those conditions exist yet, but the will, my friend, they will.

StudentDad

I'm not a fan of buses. I hate the bloody things. I'm tall and as a result the leg room on some of them makes sitting down quite fun at times That said a bus service is a necessary service, especially in rural areas and even more so in urban areas. We already have too many cars on the roads. It's hilarious watching cars crawl into Dublin and other cities during rush hour. Vehicles that can carry four or more people with one lone occupant, crawling along, start stop etc. Then when bus drivers say hang on a minute, you want to cut our salaries? People attack them. It makes little sense. What are drivers supposed to live on? The cost of living isn't going to magically become lower in the likes of Dublin because the public transport infrastructure is creaking at the seams and needs an overhaul. What we need is a better transport system, not a reactionary side-swipe at bus drivers. Where I live the public transport system is pretty awful. In a country this size we have an insane over reliance on the car. Culling the bus fleets will just make it worse and hammer those who cannot afford a car. Something has to give alright, but if we lose more of our public transport network, we all lose in the long run.

SD

Brendan Bendar

StudentDad wrote: »

I'm not a fan of buses. I hate the bloody things. I'm tall and as a result the leg room on some of them makes sitting down quite fun at times That said a bus service is a necessary service, especially in rural areas and even more so in urban areas. We already have too many cars on the roads. It's hilarious watching cars crawl into Dublin and other cities during rush hour. Vehicles that can carry four or more people with one lone occupant, crawling along, start stop etc. Then when bus drivers say hang on a minute, you want to cut our salaries? People attack them. It makes little sense. What are drivers supposed to live on? The cost of living isn't going to magically become lower in the likes of Dublin because the public transport infrastructure is creaking at the seams and needs an overhaul. What we need is a better transport system, not a reactionary side-swipe at bus drivers. Where I live the public transport system is pretty awful. In a country this size we have an insane over reliance on the car. Culling the bus fleets will just make it worse and hammer those who cannot afford a car. Something has to give alright, but if we lose more of our public transport network, we all lose in the long run.

SD

As far as I understand, BE basic salaries are not being cut.

Correct me if I am wrong, please.

The Rape of Lucretia

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

As far as I understand, BE basic salaries are not being cut.

Correct me if I am wrong, please.

Yes, you are correct. It is all the inefficiencies of overtime and allowances, added over the years as cop out, buy out, quick fixes to wage claims that are being cleaned out.
Even without all of those, the salaries are still too high. It is still an inefficient time bomb ripping off the public, even with the implementation of all those cuts.

StudentDad

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

As far as I understand, BE basic salaries are not being cut.

Correct me if I am wrong, please.

Maybe they're not. The unions seem to be reacting to the proposal to cut routes. Either way. It's the thin end of the wedge.

SD

StudentDad

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Yes, you are correct. It is all the inefficiencies of overtime and allowances, added over the years as cop out, buy out, quick fixes to wage claims that are being cleaned out.
Even without all of those, the salaries are still too high. It is still an inefficient time bomb ripping off the public, even with the implementation of all those cuts.

Cutting into the income of bus drivers isn't the solution. They have to live.

SD

magentis

StudentDad wrote: »

Cutting into the income of bus drivers isn't the solution. They have to live.

SD

Too true,in fairness they put up with a lot.Luas drivers are paid quite a bit more for an easier job.

Hilly Bill

pablo128 wrote: »

I drive a truck from time to time. Its just like a bus with no seats or windows. I haven't killed any of my cargo yet. Do I get 47k a year to drive it?

No, and nowhere near it.

.why would you expect 47 grand for part time work?

The Rape of Lucretia

StudentDad wrote: »

Cutting into the income of bus drivers isn't the solution. They have to live.

SD

Its exactly the solution. They will live. And learn to reconfigure their lives. Thanking their good fortune in having been overpaid for so long. But all good things come to an end. Can live on €35k? For a negligible skill job. They would still be on the pigs back.

Brendan Bendar

StudentDad wrote: »

Maybe they're not. The unions seem to be reacting to the proposal to cut routes. Either way. It's the thin end of the wedge.

SD

How would cutting routes precipitate an all out strike?

Are you happy that just because it's the taxpayer funding that inefficiencies and outdated work practices are tolerated.

I'm not.

pablo128

StudentDad wrote: »

I'm not a fan of buses. I hate the bloody things. I'm tall and as a result the leg room on some of them makes sitting down quite fun at times That said a bus service is a necessary service, especially in rural areas and even more so in urban areas. We already have too many cars on the roads. It's hilarious watching cars crawl into Dublin and other cities during rush hour. Vehicles that can carry four or more people with one lone occupant, crawling along, start stop etc. Then when bus drivers say hang on a minute, you want to cut our salaries? People attack them. It makes little sense. What are drivers supposed to live on? The cost of living isn't going to magically become lower in the likes of Dublin because the public transport infrastructure is creaking at the seams and needs an overhaul. What we need is a better transport system, not a reactionary side-swipe at bus drivers. Where I live the public transport system is pretty awful. In a country this size we have an insane over reliance on the car. Culling the bus fleets will just make it worse and hammer those who cannot afford a car. Something has to give alright, but if we lose more of our public transport network, we all lose in the long run.

SD

I'm tall too. 6'3". I can't fit in 95% of the seats on a Dublin bus. But guess what? In the UK, Spain, Holland, Sweden, America, Portugal, I can fit in the seats on buses. Funny that, eh?

If Dublin bus want me to use their services they may give more leg room or they can fcuk off.

Hilly Bill

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why do Unite and NBRU not publish the fees to be a member of their union?

It's around € 3 a week.

StudentDad

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

How would cutting routes precipitate an all out strike?

Are you happy that just because it's the taxpayer funding that inefficiencies and outdated work practices are tolerated.

I'm not.

What we need is a better transport network and by that I mean fewer cars. This hatred of bus drivers really is strange. Makes me think some people really have an 'I'm alright jack attitude,' especially when it comes to public services. It's a strange one. People want the service to magically run but when it comes to actually paying those providing the service people get all indignant.

SD

maryishere

pablo128 wrote: »

I'm tall too. 6'3". I can't fit in 95% of the seats on a Dublin bus. But guess what? In the UK, Spain, Holland, Sweden, America, Portugal, I can fit in the seats on buses. Funny that, eh?

If Dublin bus want me to use their services they may give more leg room or they can fcuk off.

Maybe if CIE did not overpay their staff ( compared with what drivers get elsewhere) then they would be able to afford decent buses?

Hilly Bill

maryishere wrote: »

Maybe if CIE did not overpay their staff ( compared with what drivers get elsewhere) then they would be able to afford decent buses?

Overpay? :-D

pablo128

maryishere wrote: »

Maybe if CIE did not overpay their staff ( compared with what drivers get elsewhere) then they would be able to afford decent buses?

The buses are fine. The seats are just too close together. They have the same style of buses in other countries and I can sit in the seats just fine.

Hilly Bill

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Its exactly the solution. They will live. And learn to reconfigure their lives. Thanking their good fortune in having been overpaid for so long. But all good things come to an end. Can live on €35k? For a negligible skill job. They would still be on the pigs back.

If they took home 35k a year would you begrudge them that?

Brendan Bendar

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It would be a good investment.
It is the perpetuation of this kind of institutionalised inefficiency and waste of public money (see education, healthcare, Gardai, etc, as well) that erodes standards of public service for all - while those same employees bitch about the high taxes they have to pay. Any legacy service like this that can be put to death is a short term pain well worth enduring.

Correct and right.

What the Unions want or seem to want is their members sucking strongly at the teat of the taxpayer and indulging in legacy services that have been long since demolished in the airline and other industries.

Must be a bleed from the aviation industry into the rail and busses;) one would surmise.

Time to cry halt here.

Let's hope the public and the Govt. have the cahunas to snuff this foolishness out.

Butters1979

suicide_circus wrote: »

I heard some talking head on the radio saying that if everyone on a free travel pass paid €6 per year...PER YEAR, that the hole in bus eireanns finances would be filled. 6 f*cking Euro. 11 Cent per week for unlimited public transport. And yet this idea wont even be given any discussion lest the sacred cows with their endless advocacy groups start screeching about elderly people freeze to death in their homes.

If everyone on a free travel pass gave me 6 euro a year I'd be doing great.
But I didn't f***ing earn it did I?
Unions. Bringing f*** all work with f*** all skill and demanding we subsidise their life. Screw their mortgages. Glorified welfare recipients.

The Rape of Lucretia

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If they took home 35k a year would you begrudge them that?

No. For a basic job, with some responsibility, and for working weekends, nights, holidays, etc, it would be a fair wage if everything else is in line with equivalents in the private sector (thats all in, 20 days holidays, no sham supplements/allowances/premiums, no overtime, single digit pension contribution, etc).

Butters1979

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If they took home 35k a year would you begrudge them that?

Yes. They don't justify that much.

maryishere

pablo128 wrote: »

The buses are fine. The seats are just too close together. They have the same style of buses in other countries and I can sit in the seats just fine.

CIE should space their seats slightly further apart so, like in other countries.

Back to pay. It is not a very high skilled job. You do not need a third level education. In fact many drivers could drive just as well with a primary school education, if that was all they had. How private operators manage to drive in a straight line on their wages is anyone's guess.

maryishere

In 2009, CIE had 11,463 employees with an average pay of almost €50,000 and a employer’s contribution of almost 10%.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/average-pay-in-semi-state-companies-was-55k-in-2009-152131.html

I know thats an average wage and includes managers etc, but still, its a B*****y good wage, considering the other perks like security, pension etc.
I doubt if wages have fallen much in CIE since 2009. Private bus companies can only dream of those high CIE wages and perks.

Butters1979

maryishere wrote: »

CIE should space their seats slightly further apart so, like in other countries.

Back to pay. It is not a very high skilled job. You do not need a third level education. In fact many drivers could drive just as well with a primary school education, if that was all they had. How private operators manage to drive in a straight line on their wages is anyone's guess.

Their lack of irreplaceable skill is only one issue. Their lack of work ethic, flexibility and attitude is another

maryishere

Butters1979 wrote: »

Their lack of work ethic, flexibility and attitude is another

Historical over-staffing used to be the case, I'm not sure what its like now, but I doubt they are too stressed anyway.

Hilly Bill

Butters1979 wrote: »

Yes. They don't justify that much.

You are on a fast track to management and it's that attitude that feeds the needs of unions. You won't be happy until you get paid more than them or until everyone is paid 8 quid an hour.

Hilly Bill

maryishere wrote: »

In 2009, CIE had 11,463 employees with an average pay of almost €50,000 and a employer’s contribution of almost 10%.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/average-pay-in-semi-state-companies-was-55k-in-2009-152131.html

I know thats an average wage and includes managers etc, but still, its a B*****y good wage, considering the other perks like security, pension etc.
I doubt if wages have fallen much in CIE since 2009. Private bus companies can only dream of those high CIE wages and perks.

A bus driver on 50!k a year is bollox,, people will believe any old ****e posted on the net..

maryishere

Hilly Bill wrote: »

A bus driver on 50!k a week is bollox..

And it would be bollox if someone said 50k a week, but nobody said 50k a week.

According to the statistics, link provided, in 2009, CIE had 11,463 employees with an average pay of almost €50,000 ...thats per YEAR Hilly Billy.:D

Hilly Bill

maryishere wrote: »

And it would be bollox if someone said 50k a week, but nobody said 50k a week.

According to the statistics, link provided, in 2009, CIE had 11,463 employees with an average pay of almost €50,000 ...thats per YEAR Hilly Billy.:D

Oh ****e ye., just a typo error there ;-). the stats are way off anyway, it doesn't reflect to true wage the average worker is on. That's for all 3 companies combined.For those that may be on that much then you can see why they are trying to hold onto it. Anyone on here would do the same. Not one of you when faced with cuts would say " yep, cut-away I'm getting too much ". You'd fight to hold on to what you got. .

eeguy

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Oh ****e ye., just a typo error there ;-). the stats are way off anyway, it doesn't reflect to true wage the average worker is on. That's for all 3 companies combined.For those that may be on that much then you can see why they are trying to hold onto it. Anyone on here would do the same. Not one of you when faced with cuts would say " yep, cut-away I'm getting too much ". You'd fight to hold on to what you got. .

If the choice was either a cut, or lose your job, then I'd say most would take the cut while they looked at their options. Either way we're in for interesting times ahead.

The Luas drivers just about got their raise after weeks of strikes. I wonder how BE, Shane Ross and the like are willing to bend to resolve this.

Hilly Bill

Only as a last resort.

end of the road

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It would be a good investment.
It is the perpetuation of this kind of institutionalised inefficiency and waste of public money (see education, healthcare, Gardai, etc, as well) that erodes standards of public service for all - while those same employees bitch about the high taxes they have to pay. Any legacy service like this that can be put to death is a short term pain well worth enduring.

long term pain not well worth enduring for the tax payer and those who rely on the service.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Yes, you are correct. It is all the inefficiencies of overtime and allowances, added over the years as cop out, buy out, quick fixes to wage claims that are being cleaned out.
Even without all of those, the salaries are still too high. It is still an inefficient time bomb ripping off the public, even with the implementation of all those cuts.

the salaries are not to high. they are competitive and insure staff stick around long term with the company, to build up experience and more.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Its exactly the solution. They will live. And learn to reconfigure their lives. Thanking their good fortune in having been overpaid for so long. But all good things come to an end. Can live on €35k? For a negligible skill job. They would still be on the pigs back.

they won't be thanking anything for being over paid as they aren't over paid. no amount of begrudgery and jealousy and crying will change the reality, that they aren't over paid.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

No. For a basic job, with some responsibility, and for working weekends, nights, holidays, etc, it would be a fair wage if everything else is in line with equivalents in the private sector (thats all in, 20 days holidays, no sham supplements/allowances/premiums, no overtime, single digit pension contribution, etc).

all those payments are for the responsibility involved and to keep staff long term.

end of the road

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Like everywhere else, the unions in CIE as it was need to realise that market forces dictate the pay scales and conditions.

The transport industry is probably the last bastion of the kind of thinking which elevates wages by manipulating overtime and sick leave .

All it takes is a person with the balls to take them on, and a public who are tired of being exploited.

Not sure if those conditions exist yet, but the will, my friend, they will.

should read as. all it takes is a person with the balls to take on those who insure workers rights are upheld, in the name of eradicating those rights, and a public who are tired of being exploited by their employers, who begrudge others getting a better wage. the conditions for that all ready exist, we haven't got the anti-workers rights person to take on those enforcing workers rights yet.
market forces are dictating the pay scales in both the public and private sector. the transport industry and the public sector among others are a few bastians of good working conditions due to many different factors.

Butters1979 wrote: »

Yes. They don't justify that much.

the market and all else says otherwise thankfully. so they will continue to get the wage fit for a responsible job where a company wants to keep staff long term.

maryishere

end of the road wrote: »

the salaries are not to high

They are because they are costing CIE - and the taxpayer who funds CIE - a fortune each year.

end of the road wrote: »

. they are competitive and insure staff stick around long term with the company, to build up experience and more.

So how do the private bus companies survive?

The citizens are getting as bad value from CIE now as the old airline customers did 40 years ago when we had to pay a few hundred quid ( equivalent to say €600 now ) to fly to England, with old union dominated and uncompetitive Air Lingus. They Ryanair came along and changed everything, and brought air fares down.