What next for the undocumented Irish in the states?

Polo_Mint

With Trumps crackdown on immigration and the push over the years to get documents for the unregistered Irish in the US, Will we see the estimated 50,000 undocumented Irish tracked down and kicked out of the states?

DontThankMe

Polo_Mint wrote: »

With Trumps crackdown on immigration and the push over the years to get documents for the unregistered Irish in the US, Will we see the estimated 50,000 undocumented Irish tracked down and kicked out of the states?

I really doubt they'll get kicked out unless they have commited some serious crimes Trump is too busy taking care of the potential "terrorists" from muslim countries.

Mr.Micro

Hide. I would say. They have done it up to now.

Charles Babbage

If he had any sense he should charge them $2000 per year since entry to regularise their position and use the money for some of his other projects. Anyone that hasn't saved that along the obviously isn't a huge addition to the USA and can be deported.

BorneTobyWilde

I'm sure many are married to americans and have kids
Surely they should be given citizenship

D0NNELLY

Charles Babbage wrote: »

If he had any sense he should charge them $2000 per year since entry to regularise their position and use the money for some of his other projects. Anyone that hasn't saved that along the obviously isn't a huge addition to the USA and can be deported.

Or they spend their wages, contribute to the economy, and are a better addition to the usa than horders.

Harry Palmr

Illegal is the word you are looking for. They should be given 1 month to get their affairs sorted out after which turf them out. Obviously any with criminal convictions greater than a misdemeanor should turfed out.

Manic Moran

As near as I can tell, the risk for them is about the same as it always has been. If ICE catches up to them, they'll be kicked out. The difference may be if Trump increases ICE manpower, which presumably will make it better at their job.

4068ac1elhodqr

No change for normal. Bumped into a chap waiting for a bus into town at DUB airport, said he was over there 6 years (after going over on a 6-week training scheme), and was caught just days ago.

There may be a prospect of more green cards (DV) being made available, as one or more of the largest beneficiaries, is probably now likely to be removed from the list of eligible states that can apply.

Fr Tod Umptious

It all depends on where they live and what they do.

Certain cities and states will not report an illegal immigrant to federal authorities that has committed a crime unless it's a felony, in other places they can report you to federal authorities for any misstep.

I know of two Irish deported after they were caught speeding in New Hampshire, no prior convections,nothing, just caught speeding.

Most law abiding illegals know to keep the head down and work away.

infogiver

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It all depends on where they live and what they do.

Certain cities and states will not report an illegal immigrant to federal authorities that has committed a crime unless it's a felony, in other places they can report you to federal authorities for any misstep.

I know of two Irish deported after they were caught speeding in New Hampshire, no prior convections,nothing, just caught speeding.

Most law abiding illegals know to keep the head down and work away.

By definition an illegal immigrant can't be described as law abiding
We can't decide that illegal immigrants in Ireland are not law abiding and must be deported, but that Irish illegal immigrants in other countries are law abiding and should be treated differently.
Many Irish people went to the trouble and expense of going the right way about staying in the US.
The ones who didn't get no sympathy from me

NIMAN

I will probably get abuse for this, but why do the Irish feel they are a special case to be granted the right to stay in the US?

The clue is in the title, "illegal immigrant". They went against the rule of the land and knew what they were doing. Do they deserve special treatment? I would doubt it, no more than the illegal Mexicans, or Africans or Chileans....if the authorities let people from one country stay, then its open season to let everyone stay.

Of course many might since has got married, had kids etc, these ones will obviously be a different situation. No right thinking Gov would deport a father and leave his family to live without him. But all these special circumstances will need to be considered individually.

But if illegals are caught and deported, should we have that much sympathy for them?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Fr Tod Umptious

infogiver wrote: »

By definition an illegal immigrant can't be described as law abiding
We can't decide that illegal immigrants in Ireland are not law abiding and must be deported, but that Irish illegal immigrants in other countries are law abiding and should be treated differently.
Many Irish people went to the trouble and expense of going the right way about staying in the US.
The ones who didn't get no sympathy from me

Yes if you are in the country illegally then you are breaking the law, but I'm talking about enforcement.

If US authorities wanted to catch illegals all they would have to do is raid an Irish pub, or a Vietnamese cafe or a building site and the deportion centers would be full in minutes.

But they don't, they turn a blind eye until such a time as an illegal immigrant crosses their path some other way and at that point it differs what states or cities decide to do.

By the way I don't think Irish illegals should be treated any differently than others in these matters.

ancapailldorcha

The Irish are surely too well ingrained into US culture and history at this stage to make this much of a priority for Trump I would think. I don't think there is any political capital for him to gain by having a go at the Irish. He'd also lose the Irish American vote.

endacl

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The Irish are surely too well ingrained into US culture and history at this stage to make this much of a priority for Trump I would think. I don't think there is any political capital for him to gain by having a go at the Irish. He'd also lose the Irish American vote.

Why do the Irish think we're a big deal in the states? Surely Mexicans are as ingrained? And they're getting 'The Wall'.

ancapailldorcha

endacl wrote: »

Why do the Irish think we're a big deal in the states? Surely Mexicans are as ingrained? And they're getting 'The Wall'.

Yeah but the Irish are too small a target to have any real reward to be worth having a go at them.

Rightwing

America is very divided, I don't go there even on holidays anymore. Immigrants should return home voluntarily (those without family connections at any rate).

Del2005

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Yeah but the Irish are too small a target to have any real reward to be worth having a go at them.

Or because there are small number it would be easier to deport them all without any major impact. Deport the Latinos and the country will collapse as there'd be no one to do the menial jobs.

ongarite

Del2005 wrote: »

Or because there are small number it would be easier to deport them all without any major impact. Deport the Latinos and the country will collapse as there'd be no one to do the menial jobs.

Obama deported more immigrants, mainly Mexican, than any other president in history.
Didn't hear the GOP cheering from the rafters about it so I'm sure Trump will try to out do Obama in this adminstration and make sure the media know that he is doing it and "putting America first"

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661

StudentDad

I imagine this boils down to good old fashioned economics. Trump says he doesn't like illegal immigrants but is he really going to deport a very large number of people who on the face of it at any rate have very few legal protections? That crap job your typical 'legal citizen' won't take will be taken by someone who cannot stand up and argue the toss when employment laws are being ignored. If all the illegals were given citizenship they'd be able to challenge the system. This way Trump can pick out the 'trouble makers' and the rest remain silent. It's a modern version of ancient Rome, why employ a Roman to do a job when it's cheaper to buy a slave.

SD

Jawgap

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Illegal is the word you are looking for. They should be given 1 month to get their affairs sorted out after which turf them out. Obviously any with criminal convictions greater than a misdemeanor should turfed out.

Manic Moran wrote: »

As near as I can tell, the risk for them is about the same as it always has been. If ICE catches up to them, they'll be kicked out. The difference may be if Trump increases ICE manpower, which presumably will make it better at their job.

A month?

I got pinged by the then INS and was given 2 weeks!! And that was only because I agreed to it to avoid getting a record, and because the guy I was working for at the time, generously, paid for his lawyer to talk to the INS inspector and negotiate my departure.

The phrase 'undocumented Irish' is a complete fabrication - they are what I was - illegal. I'm guessing the majority knew what I knew which is that you are operating illegally and there are consequences if you are caught.

I'm not sure why we would expect the illegal Irish to be treated any more specially than the illegal hispanics, eastern Europeans, Chinese etc

Jawgap

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Yeah but the Irish are too small a target to have any real reward to be worth having a go at them.

At the time of my 'invited departure' from the US there was a strong suspicion I'd been grassed up......the INS (now ICE) don't bother doing a sweep hoping to pick up a single Paddy......they try and sweep up dozens.

So they concentrate on agriculture, constructions, garment factories etc - the type of low wage work a lot of Irish used to do but have progressed beyond it. However, other nationalities tend to work in those sectors and are concentrated in groups, and are therefore easier targets.

Stars and Stripes

Apparently there is around 50,000 undocumented Irish facing deportation from the US, but some cities such as Chicago is and it's Mayor Emanuel quickly slammed Trump’s orders, saying “We’re gonna stay a sanctuary city, there is no stranger among us.

TOss Sweep

As someone who entered the US the correct way it p1sses me off to no end hearing people defend illegal Irish here and saying I should support their cause. When myself and the wife were doing the long distance thing and I was flying over to be with her on holiday, countless times friends of friends who were in the US illegally would tell me I should ignore the rules and just stay and then sort it out after. My answer everytime was I am not about to mess up my status for an act of stupidity.

No sympathy for any of them if they get caught to be honest and plenty hate me for saying that but you make your bed you lie in it.

pauliebdub

They should face the same consequences as any other illegal immigrants and be deported. I have very little sympathy for them. It's such a double standard to hear them referred to as "undocumented" in the media. How exactly are they undocumented??

FreudianSlippers

Charles Babbage wrote: »

If he had any sense he should charge them $2000 per year since entry to regularise their position and use the money for some of his other projects. Anyone that hasn't saved that along the obviously isn't a huge addition to the USA and can be deported.

I doubt many of the undocumented Irish in the US would have that kind of money.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

infogiver

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I doubt many of the undocumented Irish in the US would have that kind of money.

Stop saying undocumented. They're illegal immigrants.

TOss Sweep

infogiver wrote: »

Stop saying undocumented. They're illegal immigrants.

100% agree they are illegal and documented. Pet hate that people don't know the difference. Un-documented is someone who enters the country without passing through a border crossing and getting a stamp in their passport as in they have no document what so ever giving them access to the country. All of these Irish here are documented. They entered with their passports and got stamped and just never left.

FreudianSlippers

infogiver wrote: »

Stop saying undocumented. They're illegal immigrants.

*looks at thread title*


Undocumented.


Go cry to someone else if you want the thread title changed.

Pkiernan

Undocumented, just more left wing not my fault bs.

Sure we all know that bank robbers are only making undocumented withdrawals with the assistance of undocumented firearms.

Peregrinus

TOss Sweep wrote: »

100% agree they are illegal and documented. Pet hate that people don't know the difference. Un-documented is someone who enters the country without passing through a border crossing and getting a stamp in their passport as in they have no document what so ever giving them access to the country. All of these Irish here are documented. They entered with their passports and got stamped and just never left.

. . . which is not illegal. So it may be true to say that they are "not undocumented", but it doesn't follow that they are "illegal".

The phrase "undocumented" doesn't, in this context, mean that someone has no documentation; it means they have no documentation which entitles them to remain in the United States. In that sense, visa overstayers are undocumented.

"Illegal" means you have broken the law. It could be that you committed a crime in the way in which you entered the United States, or it could be that, in your circumstances, it is a crime for you to be in the United States. Visa overstayers are not committing a crime in either sense, and therefore they are not "illegal".

TOss Sweep

Peregrinus wrote: »

. . . which is not illegal. So it may be true to say that they are "not undocumented", but it doesn't follow that they are "illegal".

The phrase "undocumented" doesn't, in this context, mean that someone has no documentation; it means they have no documentation which entitles them to remain in the United States. In that sense, visa overstayers are undocumented.

"Illegal" means you have broken the law. It could be that you committed a crime in the way in which you entered the United States, or it could be that, in your circumstances, it is a crime for you to be in the United States. Visa overstayers are not committing a crime in either sense, and therefore they are not "illegal".

Under US Immigration Law Visa Over stayers are still considered Illegal Immigrants or Unauthorized residents. You can argue the use of the word undocumented in whatever context you want it still doesn't change the fact that those who overstay their welcome are considered illegal immigrants.

TOss Sweep

Either way call them what you want they should be given no favors and be treated like anyone who didn't do it the right way. Send them packing.

Peregrinus

TOss Sweep wrote: »

Under US Immigration Law Visa Over stayers are still considered Illegal Immigrants or Unauthorized residents. You can argue the use of the word undocumented in whatever context you want it still doesn't change the fact that those who overstay their welcome are considered illegal immigrants.

I think you are mistaken. US immigration law doesn't use, or define, the term "illegal immigrant". It's a polemical term, used by advocates of tougher migration policies, to suggest that the people concerned have broken the law when, in fact, they may not have.

If you think I'm wrong, can you point me to the provision of the US Immigration and Nationality Act (or other relevant US law) which defines the term?

Jawgap

Peregrinus wrote: »

. . . which is not illegal. So it may be true to say that they are "not undocumented", but it doesn't follow that they are "illegal".

The phrase "undocumented" doesn't, in this context, mean that someone has no documentation; it means they have no documentation which entitles them to remain in the United States. In that sense, visa overstayers are undocumented.

"Illegal" means you have broken the law. It could be that you committed a crime in the way in which you entered the United States, or it could be that, in your circumstances, it is a crime for you to be in the United States. Visa overstayers are not committing a crime in either sense, and therefore they are not "illegal".

They have broken the law - the one that says leave when your visa is up

If you had a valid visa and you were just waiting for the paperwork to issue and the law allowed you to be present while waiting for said paperwork then you would be undocumented......if you've overstayed your visa, arrived on a tourist or study visit and breached the terms of the visa by working more than is allowed you have immigrated and are an immigrant engaged in activities not permitted by the law of the land - hence you are an illegal immigrant.

It's time for people to wear their big boy pants - they went there knowing exactly what they were doing and now seem to be demanding special treatment because, you know, Irish and all that! And the politicians here pander to that......good luck to anyone who is working there and I hope they do well, but don't whinge if you get caught.

Fr Tod Umptious

Peregrinus wrote: »

. . . which is not illegal. So it may be true to say that they are "not undocumented", but it doesn't follow that they are "illegal".

The phrase "undocumented" doesn't, in this context, mean that someone has no documentation; it means they have no documentation which entitles them to remain in the United States. In that sense, visa overstayers are undocumented.

"Illegal" means you have broken the law. It could be that you committed a crime in the way in which you entered the United States, or it could be that, in your circumstances, it is a crime for you to be in the United States. Visa overstayers are not committing a crime in either sense, and therefore they are not "illegal".

Most of the "undocumented" come over on visa waivers and then work and stay beyond the 90 days.

Once you work while in the US on the visa waiver you have committed "visa fraud" which surprise surprise is illegal.

TOss Sweep

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think you are mistaken. US immigration law doesn't use, or define, the term "illegal immigrant". It's a polemical term, used by advocates of tougher migration policies, to suggest that the people concerned have broken the law when, in fact, they may not have.

If you think I'm wrong, can you point me to the provision of the US Immigration and Nationality Act (or other relevant US law) which defines the term?

Undocumented/Illegal/Unauthorized call it what you want at this point it really doesn't matter as the thread is what happens next to these folk. When they decide not to go home they have unlawfully overstayed their welcome and should be sent home if caught the end.

If you want to get into a legal discussion about the words themselves be my guest. You are probably right but do I care enough to give a damn anymore? Nope. The thread asks what happens next and I have given my opinion so you have a cracking day good sir.

Peregrinus

Jawgap wrote: »

They have broken the law - the one that says leave when your visa is up

Mm-hm? Is that so? You want to maybe put up a link to the law which obliges you to leave when your visa is up?

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Once you work while in the US on the visa waiver you have committed "visa fraud" which surprise surprise is illegal.

You want to link to the law which creates and defines the offence of "visa fraud"?

No, didn't think so.

TOss Sweep wrote: »

If you want to get into a legal discussion about the words themselves be my guest.

Do I have to point out that you're the one whose fussing about words, objecting to "undocumented", and insisting that "illegal" is the correct term to use? I only came in in response to that. If you don't want to discuss which of these words is correct, you should probably stop making posts to discussion boards expressing views about which of these words is correct.

TOss Sweep wrote: »

You are probably right but do I care enough to give a damn anymore? Nope. The thread asks what happens next and I have given my opinion so you have a cracking day good sir.

I'm all for a discussion about how the undocumented should be dealt with but, please, don't attempt to poison the well by insisting that they can only be discussed in terms that suggest criminality and illegality, and then gather up your skirts and flounce away when you get called on it.

Jawgap

Peregrinus wrote: »

Mm-hm? Is that so? You want to maybe put up a link to the law which obliges you to leave when your visa is up?

......

The Immigration and Nationality Act makes 'failure to depart' a civil offence - presumably to make it easier to remove people when they are caught, given the lower burden of proof.

TOss Sweep

Peregrinus wrote: »

Do I have to point out that you're the one whose fussing about words, objecting to "undocumented", and insisting that "illegal" is the correct term to use? I only came in in response to that. If you don't want to discuss which of these words is correct, you should probably stop making posts to discussion boards expressing views about which of these words is correct.

I said you are probably right and with that as I said I have decided to move on from the subject and could care less derailing the thread any further over how the words should and shouldn't be used. If you choose to so be it.

I'm all for a discussion about how the undocumented should be dealt with but, please, don't attempt to poison the well by insisting that they can only be discussed in terms that suggest criminality and illegality, and then gather up your skirts and flounce away when you get called on it.

Poison the well? Classic. And I never insisted anything. And gather up my skirt? Oh boy another gem.

Who is the ones fussing about it now? Really sounds like someone is all hot and bothered by it. If you want to make yourself look like the big shot and point out how others are wrong and pound that chest of yours don't let me stop you.

Funny thing I have no problem accepting that if I am wrong about the word undocumented then I am wrong. But hey soldier on good buddy.

Peregrinus

TOss Sweep wrote: »

I said you are probably right and with that as I said I have decided to move on from the subject and could care less derailing the thread any further over how the words should and shouldn't be used . . .

If so, you have an odd way of showing it.

Killergreene

Hope Trump holds onto the law breakers. We can't afford to prop another 50k wasters on to the end of the dole queue.

TOss Sweep

Peregrinus wrote: »

If so, you have an odd way of showing it.

Sure. Have a Great Day!

lawred2

I struggle to understand why Irish politicians constantly feel the need to respond for calls on helping the undocumented Irish in the US..

Since when was supporting illegality a thing...

Jawgap

lawred2 wrote: »

I struggle to understand why Irish politicians constantly feel the need to respond for calls on helping the undocumented Irish in the US..

Since when was supporting illegality a thing...

Since there were votes in it here.

a lot of those 'undocumented' have mammies, daddies, nanas, grandads, uncles etc here.

.....plus there's probably votes in it too in the US in certain Congressional districts......I'm guessing you don't get elected to the Massachusett's 8th (Lynch-D) by using words like 'illegal' 'immigrant' and 'Irish' in the same sentence

Peregrinus

lawred2 wrote: »

I struggle to understand why Irish politicians constantly feel the need to respond for calls on helping the undocumented Irish in the US.

For the reason jawgap point out; there's votes in it at home.

On the other hand, take comfort in the thought that Irish politicians have no traction with Trump; he has no regard for the value of the US's relationships with other countries, and certainly not with Ireland. While Irish politicians may call for this or that, there is no reason to think that Trump will pay a blind bit of attention.

On the other other hand, Trump's stance on immigration is basically dog-whistle racism. Hating on Muslims serves his purposes well, hating on Hispanics quite well; hating on Irish, hardly at all. So, while he has no interest in placating Irish politicians, he also has no interest in hounding Irish people in the US. It's possible they'll get caught in the slipstream, as it were, of his measures against other migrants (assuming he takes any effective measure at all, that is), but they won't be targetted specifically.

rockonollie

In response to those that claim the illegal irish will be ok as long as they stay out of trouble (as has been the case for decades).....there's reports coming in from all across the US of ICE sweeps rounding up illegal immigrants (even ones without records)
Granted these sweeps have targeted mostly latino communities so far, it shows that this administration is taking a more proactive approach to illegal immigrants than in the past when deportations generally didn't happen until someone appeared in the court system for other reasons.

topmanamillion

lawred2 wrote: »

I struggle to understand why Irish politicians constantly feel the need to respond for calls on helping the undocumented Irish in the US..

Since when was supporting illegality a thing...

I'm no fan of Kenny but I do feel sympathy when he`s put up to this on Paddys day.
What's he supposed to say?
"Sorry there Donald, there`s a few of our lads here that didn't bother their hole getting a visa, if you throw them an auld visa there`ll always be a free bar for you and the missus in the Dail bar"

I`d like to know what the end goal of people who are pushing for him to discuss it with American politicians is.
Legalising illegal immigrants in America just isn't going to happen.

Jawgap

topmanamillion wrote: »

I'm no fan of Kenny but I do feel sympathy when he`s put up to this on Paddys day.
What's he supposed to say?
"Sorry there Donald, there`s a few of our lads here that didn't bother their hole getting a visa, if you throw them an auld visa there`ll always be a free bar for you and the missus in the Dail bar"

I`d like to know what the end goal of people who are pushing for him to discuss it with American politicians is.
Legalising illegal immigrants in America just isn't going to happen.

Yeah, it's a hard ol' station he has......all those hours in the government jet, the wining, the dining and then he has to do something as unspeakable as an empty political gesture......

......sure a nurse in A&E on Saturday night has it easy compared to that.

Put it this way, any time he finds it all too onerous he can resign, walk away and get a pension equivalent to an amount the vast majority of us will never see as a salary.