And so it begins...

rachb

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

I saw a post in regards to this where someone commented "typical Sweden, well done, what a kip you have become" and the reply went "how do you know it was foreigners?"

I'd actually love to meet this type of mug, and challenge them to bet their house on the perps being named Lars, Erik and Sven rather than Abdul, Mahmoud and Fayaz. Too chicken to put their money where their mouth is without a doubt.

Their faces say it all really, not that I have seen the absolutely disgusting video but I have seen their faces posted online on news pieces. Two Afghan migrants and a "Swedish"citizen but I'm waiting to be Politically Corrected on that!

eeguy

rachb wrote: »

Their faces say it all really, not that I have seen the absolutely disgusting video but I have seen their faces posted online on news pieces. Two Afghan migrants and a "Swedish"citizen but I'm waiting to be Politically Corrected on that!

And how many rapes occur in Sweden annually? Are these attacks statistically outside what's expected?
If this attack could have been prevented by applying a blanket immigration ban, then how many of those thousands of destitute migrants would have suffered similar attacks or worse?

I'd never condone or excuse these attacks, I just feel like people are letting emotion and their own biases do the talking instead of the facts.

rachb

eeguy wrote: »

Very true. That attack was 16 years ago this year and it can still be felt in the way the US conducts itself.
My point is that rare events are blown way out of proportion and people tend to believe things are much worse than they are.
Say for instance if we heard an Arabic community had totally ostracised a rape victim and supported the perpetrator. We'd say they're a backward people with no respect for women's rights and it would be blasted all over the news for a week.
That happened in Tralee in 2009. You wouldn't say that the people of Ireland are backwards by association but you see it applied to Middle Eastern people all the time.

No I totally agree with you but I think our Catholic religion is slowly changing with the times(for the better thank god).
My point is that "rare" events are not blown out of proportion because it takes only 1/2/3 people etc to cause such an atrocity, where 100s or even 1000s can die from one such atrocity. So for every one thousand immigrants we let in, all it takes is 1 bad egg to kill 100 people.

Ps the point you made with the Arabic community ostracising a rape victim IS what is happening in mostly Muslin dominant countries. They treat women horribly as second class citizens and their religion needs to change with the times too. And until that happens I think a lot of people will be cautious to them.

Samuel T. Cogley

Sweden is very difficult to quantify as they have a broad definition of rape.

Stats for Germany:

rape and aggravated sexual coercion (Sects. 177 (2, 3 and 4), 178 PC) (2015) 7,022 (2014) 7,345 (Differance) -323

No published stats for 2016 as far as I can see.

rachb

RobertKK wrote: »

Bad news, it is more than Muslims. It makes nice propaganda to say it is only Muslims.
Anyone who has travelled to these countries are too, and people of all religions and none.
A CNN journalist who is not Muslim but said he has been to a number of these countries says he is affected too.

Please don't believe CNN aka Clinton News Network. Full of crap!

Jimmy Garlic

I hear the Sun is not going to rise in the morning because of Trump...

The level of sheer hysteria emanating from those who are emotional because Trump won is off the scale.

riffmongous

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

Sweden is very difficult to quantify as they have a broad definition of rape.

Stats for Germany:

rape and aggravated sexual coercion (Sects. 177 (2, 3 and 4), 178 PC) (2015) 7,022 (2014) 7,345 (Differance) -323

No published stats for 2016 as far as I can see.

Can you post the link?

DEFTLEFTHAND

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

I hear the Sun is not going to rise in the morning because of Trump...

The level of sheer hysteria emanating from those who are emotional because Trump won is off the scale.

This woman has actually been admitted to a mental healthy facility. An asylum as they used to be called.

I used to know a few like her in my time. I've always found that hardcore leftists have a problem with facts and reality. They deny human nature and seem to spend their entire lives striving for an ideal which is unattainable.

When I was in college I wanted to work and make money. I wanted to be somebody, not a dreamer and a leech.

darkpagandeath

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

This woman has actually been admitted to a mental healthy facility. An asylum as they used to be called.

I used to know a few like her in my time. I've always found that hardcore leftists have a problem with facts and reality. They deny human nature and seem to spend their entire lives striving for an ideal which is unattainable.

When I was in college I wanted to work and make money. I wanted to be somebody, not a dreamer and a leech.

She reminds me of those on the street corner shouting The end is neigh.

pablo128

Fcuking idiots over there. They blow places to pieces all over the world in the guise of liberating these countries, and when they democratically elect a President in their own country they go into meltdown.

darkpagandeath

pablo128 wrote: »

Fcuking idiots over there. They blow places to pieces all over the world in the guise of liberating these countries, and when they democratically elect a President in their own country they go into meltdown.

Only really since social media gave them a area to idealise. And then taking over college campuses creating so called “safe spaces”. It's all very surreal. V for Vendetta being used as a battle cry. It was a great film and very poignant but the USA is not even close to the universe.

Graces7

Hazel Spicy Tweed wrote: »

Most people here wouldn't know where annascull is;)

All the better!

el diablo

More idiotic scaremongering. The Obama regime dropped 72 bombs a day on the Middle East and northern Africa and deported more illegal immigrants (over 2.5 million) than any previous US government but not a word of protest from the resident leftists here.:rolleyes:

Jimmy Garlic

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Only really since social media gave them a area to idealise. And then taking over college campuses creating so called “safe spaces”. It's all very surreal. V for Vendetta being used as a battle cry. It was a great film and very poignant but the USA is not even close to the universe.

Their insanity is becoming very apparent. They are unraveling.

Funny and sad at the same time.

el diablo

degsie wrote: »

With Trump's executive order on Muslim immigration, his siding up with Russia and his spat with Mexico, alongside the UK turning its back on Europe, we are heading towards a darker place. The world seems a little less safe right now.

So would it be preferable to attempt to engage Russia in conflict as Bill Clinton's wife was proposing? Would the world be a safer place if the US government was currently implementing a no-fly zone and beginning the process of regime change in Syria???

9or10

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

I've never met Enda Kenny but I still think he's a twat.

I have, twice. He was absolutely charming, both times.

But I won't be subscribing. I've scanned the thread and there's a bit of a lack of

Je suis Muslim

about it.

mad muffin

degsie wrote: »

With Trump's executive order on Muslim immigration, his siding up with Russia and his spat with Mexico, alongside the UK turning its back on Europe, we are heading towards a darker place. The world seems a little less safe right now.

Really? The world didn't seem unsafe when shît was happening right on your doorstep across Europe. Under Obama I might add. But Trump is in power now and you feel unsafe? :rolleyes:

TheQuietFella

degsie wrote: »

With Trump's executive order on Muslim immigration, his siding up with Russia and his spat with Mexico, alongside the UK turning its back on Europe, we are heading towards a darker place. The world seems a little less safe right now.

I applaud the man! Doing exactly what he said he would do in his campaigns.

Now there's a novelty!

C. Montgomery Gurns

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

Sweden is very difficult to quantify as they have a broad definition of rape.

Stats for Germany:

rape and aggravated sexual coercion (Sects. 177 (2, 3 and 4), 178 PC) (2015) 7,022 (2014) 7,345 (Differance) -323

No published stats for 2016 as far as I can see.

This from the law enforcement of a country who, after the Munich attacks attempted to cover up the religion of the attacker, deleted his Facebook, the motivation behind the attacks (a Muslim of immigrant origin inspired by Anders Brevik. Jesus wept) and possibly covered up the involvement of other gunmen in the attacks.

I'll take their stats with a pinch of salt thanks.

Wanderer78

mad muffin wrote:

Really? The world didn't seem unsafe when shît was happening right on your doorstep across Europe. Under Obama I might add. But Trump is in power now and you feel unsafe?

With a slight advancement of the doomsday clock, other experts seem to think so to!

Galwayguy35

I didn't see lefties up in arms when the women of Cologne were assaulted by the people they want to let into Europe, sure the poster boy for the left Liam Cunningham said it was "anecdotal".

Noddyholder

I heard the same crap , in hindsight from the same sort of people when Reagan & thatcher were in power.

I still here.

Panrich

I've never met a Trump supporter in real life. At least one who'll openly admit to being one. It's very strange to see the conviction of posters on here who defend and cheer his every misstep.

TheRa

Trump chose those countries because Obama already put them on a list as high risk and Congress approved them as high risk. As a result the bill already had force of law behind it.


You can read about it here: http:// www. nationalreview. com/article/444371/donald-trump-executive-order-ban-entry-seven-muslim-majority-countries-legal

Wanderer78

Panrich wrote:

I've never met a Trump supporter in real life. At least one who'll openly admit to being one. It's very strange to see the conviction of posters on here who defend and cheer his every misstep.

Oh I have, an Irish person that travelled to America to campaign for him. Plenty of supporters there

mulbot

rachb wrote: »

No I don't disagree with you but no attack will ever compare to the 9/11 attack where nearly 3000 innocent people died in 1 attack. That was a rare occurance but it was the biggest terrorist attack in history.

Some might argue the illegal slaughtering of over a million Iraqi people was the biggest terrorist attack in history!!!

TheRa

eeguy wrote: »

As I've said before, the Bataclan attack made world headlines. The worst attack on Framce since WW2. An attack carried out by Belgians and French nationals on the French. 2 of 8 terrorists were non European. In terms of death, more people died on French roads in the 4 weeks leading up to the attack. Over 90% of the people inside the Bataclan escaped. Some though there was a fire, not an attack, yet it led to huge crackdowns and hatred towards immigrants who had zero to do with it.

They were all of a recent immigrant background, were they not? Either first or second generation and then the main man was shielded by the predominantly immigrant community of Molenbeek in Belgium.

Doesn't bode well for the future.

mad muffin

Wanderer78 wrote: »

With a slight advancement of the doomsday clock, other experts seem to think so to!

Alleged experts…

TheRa

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I didn't see lefties up in arms when the women of Cologne were assaulted by the people they want to let into Europe, sure the poster boy for the left Liam Cunningham said it was "anecdotal".

Did he actually say that? Wow.

Wanderer78

mad muffin wrote:

Alleged experts…

What's the criteria for expert status? They're good enough in my estimation

mad muffin

Wanderer78 wrote: »

What's the criteria for expert status? They're good enough in my estimation

Who made them experts? What's their qualifications? Political leanings? Who are they? What qualifies the extra half minute? Are they against America and Russia resuming relations?

Wanderer78

mad muffin wrote:

Who made them experts? What's their qualifications? Political leanings? Who are they? What qualifies the extra half minute? Are they against America and Russia resuming relations?

Don't know the answers to your questions but if they're good enough for somebody like noam chomsky, they're good enough for me. I'm sure some googling will fill in the blanks for both of us

HONKEY TONK

I think with the US and the UK's reorganisation of their foreign policies and security, The EU as a whole need to do the same thing.

With the Elections in France, Germany, Holland and so on coming up, The EU will collapse quickly if Immigration is not top priority in Brussels in 2017

Wanderer78

HONKEY TONK wrote:

With the Elections in France, Germany, Holland and so on coming up, The EU will collapse quickly if Immigration is not top priority in Brussels in 2017

You may be asking and expecting a lot from our leaders, don't get your hopes up and be prepared for a collapse

Blazer

I can't wait to hear the outrage from people when Trump decides to kick out the so called 'undocumented irish' or as most people in Europe call these type of people 'economic immigrants'.
I still can't get over Irish TD's fussing over them and yet denying the very same to those in Direct Provision here in Ireland. It's completely 2 faced.
Now I'm not saying that Trump should throw them out...I can't blame any of them for going to the US when this country was in the pits but we're very 2 faced about it. When the Celtic Tiger was in working in pubs, MacDonals, Supermacs etc was all considered beneath us and the foreign works who came here were happy to take these jobs. Then the recession came in and all of a sudden it was they took our jobs.

Wanderer78

Blazer wrote:

I can't wait to hear the outrage from people when Trump decides to kick out the so called 'undocumented irish' or as most people in Europe call these type of people 'economic immigrants'. I still can't get over Irish TD's fussing over them and yet denying the very same to those in Direct Provision here in Ireland. It's completely 2 faced. Now I'm not saying that Trump should throw them out...I can't blame any of them for going to the US when this country was in the pits but we're very 2 faced about it. When the Celtic Tiger was in working in pubs, MacDonals, Supermacs etc was all considered beneath us and the foreign works who came here were happy to take these jobs. Then the recession came in and all of a sudden it was they took our jobs.

Some have been there years, even decades. Many married with kids etc. Gonna get very messy

C. Montgomery Gurns

Blazer wrote: »

I can't wait to hear the outrage from people when Trump decides to kick out the so called 'undocumented irish' or as most people in Europe call these type of people 'economic immigrants'.

Is there some sort of willfull blindness assocated with Trump? Like, a sort of ability to block out what Trump says and does?

Trump has pledged to hunt down illegals with criminal records who should have been deported but due to the insane policies of some cities were released from county jails having completed their sentences. He is not throwing out each and every illegal

Trump never boasted of sexually assaulting anyone. He boasted about groupies throwing themselves at him. Consensually.

Trump has never publicly uttered a racist comment.

The "Muslim ban" is, at the moment, temporary. It has been temporary since the day in late 2015 when he called for the ban, when he said, and I quote, that there would need to be a ban until they figured out what exactly was going on. It is a temporary ban while the screening procedures are reviewed. Here in Ireland we don't have a screening procedure for these admissions. If we did have a screening procedure the government should be able to provide evidence of how many Syrians were denied entry- it is nigh on impossible that out of several hundred Syrians "vetted" that a handful would not hold a significant criminal record.

wakka12

eeguy wrote: »

There's a weird disassociate humans make on things that kill us.
Disease, suicide, car crashes, work accidents, attacks from our own people and on and on, yet we fixate on immigrants, even though they do statistically insignificant damage to our societies.

As I've said before, the Bataclan attack made world headlines. The worst attack on Framce since WW2. An attack carried out by Belgians and French nationals on the French. 2 of 8 terrorists were non European. In terms of death, more people died on French roads in the 4 weeks leading up to the attack. Over 90% of the people inside the Bataclan escaped. Some though there was a fire, not an attack, yet it led to huge crackdowns and hatred towards immigrants who had zero to do with it.

I think the world has gone mad with their fear of terrorism. I think media portrays it as much worse than it actually is. We have irish lads with 100s of convictions terrorising us and not a word said, while 24 hour coverage about all the "hidden terrorists" among the refugees. A grand claim to make, since either can't be proven right or wrong.

I hate to Godwin the thread but i find it so hypocritical when people say "Oh we'd never let atrocities like the holocaust happen again" when we have hundreds of thousands killed in Syria, millions fleeing and people just don't want to know.

I agree that fear mongering associated with terrorism levels in Europe is unwarranted. But please stop trying to make light of the fact or normalise hundreds of people being gunned down on the streets of Paris , its very offensive to the victim's families. That should never be considered normal or just part of getting on with life. Regardless of how rare terrorist attacks are I think our collective shock and disgust at the events in Paris and disbelief that something like that could happen in one of the west's most major urban areas is quite justified

And how is the fact that 90% of the people in the Bataclan survived relevant or important in this discussion? Would our fear of such an attack occurring again only be warranted if 100% of the guests had been murdered???
Again you are really playing down 90 innocent people being murdered and dismembered in a theatre
And what difference does it make that they thought it was a fire? Pretty irrelevant seeing as it ****ing well wasnt a fire ,they were confused and scared ,again I don't understand why you even mentioned this

Rubberchikken

i don't see anythin wrong with what he's doing. a government should be looking out for and after their own country. isn't that part of why they're elected in the first place?

C. Montgomery Gurns

Rubberchikken wrote: »

i don't see anythin wrong with what he's doing. a government should be looking out for and after their own country. isn't that part of why they're elected in the first place?

Which is why I always laugh when people say things like "that's what you get for voting for FG and FF again and again". As if to insinuate we actually have a credible opposition party in this country to vote for!!!

Wanderer78

Rubberchikken wrote: »

i don't see anythin wrong with what he's doing. a government should be looking out for and after their own country. isn't that part of why they're elected in the first place?

this is actually a very important statement! have we lost our way, are our governments doing what they should be doing or what we require them to do?

vicwatson

A stay has been put on the order, ACLU took it into court last night.

Here's some stats for yis - 737 people killed by falling out of bed :D....only in America

wakka12

eeguy wrote: »

None are insignificant in and of themselves. They're all atrocious.

My point is that they statistically pale in comparison to what's already going on in these countries yet recieved disproportionately huge media emphasis.
Do you disagree with this?

Why spend huge resources to prevent rare occurances instead of focusing on more prevalent, home grown threats?

Hundreds of people being gunned down on the streets of Paris received suitably large media coverage imo. As did almost 100 people being run over by a truck whilst celebrating on the beach in Nice. I don't know how you can expect events such as that to not receive massive news coverage regardless of who perpetrated it. Mass murder receives huge coverage even if its not a muslim extremist attack, such as in Oslo in 2011.
Car crashes and others which kill larger amounts of people over time are less talked about as they don't involve large amounts of people being murdered in one place at one time by one group of people. Your argument is silly

eeguy

wakka12 wrote: »

And how is the fact that 90% of the people in the Bataclan survived relevant or important in this discussion? Would our fear of such an attack occurring again only be warranted if 100% of the guests had been murdered???
Again you are really playing down 90 innocent people being murdered and dismembered in a theatre
And what difference does it make that they thought it was a fire? Pretty irrelevant seeing as it ****ing well wasnt a fire ,they were confused and scared ,again I don't understand why you even mentioned this

I'm not trying to normalise or play down terrorism. I'm saying that plenty worse things are normalised and played down, while we get huge media fear mongering and political debate on rare events. Why are things that kill a hundred times more people annually, getting a hundred times less funding to prevent?

Why do people generalise immigrants over the actions of a few, while they don't do it when their own countrymen do far worse?

Since we have exported economic migrants for hundreds of years, isn't it hypocritical that we refuse to take some in now?

wakka12 wrote: »

Mass murder receives huge coverage even if its not a muslim extremist attack, such as in Oslo in 2011.
Car crashes and others which kill larger amounts of people over time are less talked about as they don't involve large amounts of people being murdered in one place at one time by one group of people. Your argument is silly

So 130 people killed in the Bataclan gets worldwide coverage, while 130 people killed on French roads in 10 days gets nothing. I'm not taking away from the fact that it was an atrocity, but is the death of on person worse than another?

My argument isn't silly. My argument is that people are getting manipilulated by the media, manipulated by politicians wanting to push their own agenda, letting their emotions and fears get the better of them and it's having a damaging effect on the world.

ChikiChiki

Anyone is out of their mind if they think this is a good policy. The worrying thing about Trump is he signing off laws with no debate whatsoever.

I'm all for heavily controlled immigration but these measures take the piss.

ChikiChiki

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

I think with the US and the UK's reorganisation of their foreign policies and security, The EU as a whole need to do the same thing.

With the Elections in France, Germany, Holland and so on coming up, The EU will collapse quickly if Immigration is not top priority in Brussels in 2017

Not the same thing. We just need to put much heavier controls and vetting procedures in place than what we do at the minute which is none.

Wanderer78

vicwatson wrote: »

A stay has been put on the order, ACLU took it into court last night.

Here's some stats for yis - 737 people killed by falling out of bed :D....only in America

i might be stepping out on a limb here and apologies if ive offended anybody, but wouldnt it be a good idea to tackle the gun related issues first? just sayin! :rolleyes:

RandomName2

eeguy wrote: »

There's a weird disassociate humans make on things that kill us.
Disease, suicide, car crashes, work accidents, attacks from our own people and on and on, yet we fixate on immigrants, even though they do statistically insignificant damage to our societies.

[...]

I think the world has gone mad with their fear of terrorism. I think media portrays it as much worse than it actually is. We have irish lads with 100s of convictions terrorising us and not a word said, while 24 hour coverage about all the "hidden terrorists" among the refugees. A grand claim to make, since either can't be proven right or wrong.

I hate to Godwin the thread but i find it so hypocritical when people say "Oh we'd never let atrocities like the holocaust happen again" when we have hundreds of thousands killed in Syria, millions fleeing and people just don't want to know.

Okay, I don't like doing this as it's running counter to the OP somewhat (which is about Trump and his bonkers policies)

Some of the most significant conflicts in recent history have been caused by immigration. Irish conflicts have had their roots in the immigration from England (both 'natural immigration' and state sponsored like the plantations). Migrations of people in Europe that created large minorities in host countries have typically led to conflict and bloodshed (provided that immigrants in these countries weren't assimilated). We've seen it before, and we see it today.

You're right that people ultimately shouldn't care about lone-wolf attacks, or about Guantanimo prisoners. They are a drop in the ocean. But you should care when you're talking about hundred of thousands (if not millions) of people. Germany has in all likelihood sown the seeds for future conflict within its borders: it might take 50 years for it to really kick off, but it probably will, and probably won't end well.

You talked about Godwinning the thread with a really inapt analogy, but what would you have people do? Syria and Iraq are largely as they are because of people "trying to do the right thing" believe it or not. Would you stand idly by while dictators like Saddam and Assad butcher their citizens? Gassing of Kurds feels a bit like the Holocaust, doesn't it? But, I don't know, perhaps you could instead have Samantha Power attack Russia over helping Assad and invading Crimea, all while her government aided the Saudi blockade and bombing of Yemen.

suicide_circus

The only good thing about Trump is the kind of people he annoys

Memnoch

suicide_circus wrote: »

The only good thing about Trump is the kind of people he annoys

Women and minority ethnic groups?