Folio not in vendors name

Green17

I'm hoping to buy a house in a new development. On reviewing the paperwork our solicitor informed us the land is not registered in the developers name. It's not in the last owners name either but in is still in the previous owners name. The developers solicitor are aware & are 'urgently' working to resolve this for at least a year. Apparently the registered owner is still alive and the are getting some sort of legal statement about the transaction. Our solicitor advised us to add a clause to the contract stating this would be resolved upon completion. They're solicitor flatly refused to countersign & asked us to pay the deposit & to remove the clause.
Then we got a call from the developer encouraging us to do the same. And telling us this hasn't come up in any of the other sales. 10 houses are already occupied. Another 10 are Sold or at the same stage as us.
When we queried this again with our solicitor we're told we could collect our file and go to another Solicitor who would just push it through.

Has anyone experienced a similar situation?

We're unsure how the solicitors who represented the 10 occupants accepted this situation and ours refuses to.

We like this house. Heart was set on it. Fatigued of looking at houses, being out bid, being used by auctioneers to bid up cash buyers. Been disappointed.

dudara

Moved to Accommodation & Property. Better suited there

dudara

Tefral

I wouldnt touch this as it is. How can you legally register it with the PRA if the person selling it to you doesnt have the legal ownership of the site?

The previous owners need to do a deed of transfer amonst themselves before they can then transfer to you.

um7y1h83ge06nx

I agree with Tefral, sounds bizarre and more bizarre that they won't allow what I feel it's a very reasonable clause in the contract.

The developer or their solicitor don't represent you or your interests, they just want a sale.

What if the developer can't sort this out? You'll own a house on land that neither you or the developer legally own.

I'd play tough with that developer and call it out.

Grawns

I would go to another solicitor and push it through. Sounds like a paperwork error and while your solicitor is being very conscientious if you lose the house you will be paying an extra 10% in Dublin when you go to buy again.

the_syco

Green17 wrote: »

Our solicitor advised us to add a clause to the contract stating this would be resolved upon completion. They're solicitor flatly refused to countersign & asked us to pay the deposit & to remove the clause.
Then we got a call from the developer encouraging us to do the same.

I'd wonder if they're not signing it as they're not even going to try to have the issue sorted.

Perhaps have your solicitor get in contact with the land owner, to find out what the craic is?

Baby01032012

Grawns wrote: »

I would go to another solicitor and push it through. Sounds like a paperwork error and while your solicitor is being very conscientious if you lose the house you will be paying an extra 10% in Dublin when you go to buy again.

This is the problem with seeking advice on the interweb. You get all kinds of clueless responses. You are paying a solicitor to protect your interests and that is what he is doing. You are encouraging someone to ignore professional advice and take a risk on the biggest debt of their lifetime that they will be paying for 30 years and may not have legal title to sell it then. Asking someone to commit financial suicide is more than wrong. Please listen to your solicitor and not this clueless troll.

Tefral

Baby01032012 wrote: »

This is the problem with seeking advice on the interweb. You get all kinds of clueless responses. You are paying a solicitor to protect your interests and that is what he is doing. You are encouraging someone to ignore professional advice and take a risk on the biggest debt of their lifetime that they will be paying for 30 years and may not have legal title to sell it then. Asking someone to commit financial suicide is more than wrong. Please listen to your solicitor and not this clueless troll.

Its quite telling that the solicitor is willing to walk away from the business of completing this sale by telling them to go to another if they want to plough on.

If that doesnt ring alarm bells I dunno what would.

Peregrinus

Green17 wrote: »

We're unsure how the solicitors who represented the 10 occupants accepted this situation and ours refuses to.

One possibility is that those ten houses are on a different folio where this problem doesn't arise.

I'll say what others have said. Your solicitor is being paid to provide you advice, and why would you bother paying for advice if you don't intend to take it? The fact that he's willing to forgo your business (and associated fees) rather than proceed with this transaction tells you he's an honest and conscientious professional. Listen to him.

Carlos Orange

Grawns wrote: »

I would go to another solicitor and push it through. Sounds like a paperwork error and while your solicitor is being very conscientious if you lose the house you will be paying an extra 10% in Dublin when you go to buy again.

Is paperwork not pretty much all solicitors deal with and all ownership entails?

Presumably it is going to be a lot easier to sort this now while the person who owns the land is alive than whenever the OP tries to sell and it becomes an issue again.

Grawns

If you want to lose the house stick with your solicitor. Otherwise go find someone you can work with and who can work with the vendors solicitor.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Tefral wrote: »

Its quite telling that the solicitor is willing to walk away from the business of completing this sale by telling them to go to another if they want to plough on.

If that doesnt ring alarm bells I dunno what would.

Very true. Rare enough for people to turn down money unless they genuinely believe it would be unprofessional to continue.

Peregrinus

psinno wrote: »

Is paperwork not pretty much all solicitors deal with and all ownership entails?

Presumably it is going to be a lot easier to sort this now while the person who owns the land is alive than whenever the OP tries to sell and it becomes an issue again.

It's going to be easier to sort all this out now if the vendor needs to get it sorted out so he can get his money. Once you have paid for the property the vendor will lose all interest in helping you sort out the title issues.

nicol

I was in a similar situation when I went to buy my first apartment. The previous owner hadn't registered his ownership of the property and my solicitor advised me not to proceed with the sale unless this was rectified. I spent about 6 months trying to sort it out and in the end I had to walk away as I could have had problems selling the property on in the future.

I'd take your solicitor's advise, personally I'd move on and look elsewhere.

Green17

Green17 wrote: »

We're unsure how the solicitors who represented the 10 occupants accepted this situation and ours refuses to.

I agree with those that say trust your solicitor in this case, seems very strange and risky.

Would you consider going to see one of the completed owners and asking them about it?

Penalty

Grawns wrote: »

If you want to lose the house stick with your solicitor. Otherwise go find someone you can work with and who can work with the vendors solicitor.

The OP has a solicitor they can work with. He has given some very good advise as others here have given - particularly people who have been in the situation before.

By a solicitor "you can work with" do you mean someone who will ignore the risk and put the sale through? i.e. an incompetent solicitor who will take the clause out and leave the OP in mess trying to sort it themselves?

OP - its 99.9% that everything is above board and its just the paper work that has to be cleaned up on this. However it is still vital that the paperwork is cleaned up. As others have said the developer will have no motivation to clean this up once you complete. It will then be your hassle and cost etc to get it sorted and you will run into the issue if you ever try to sell. You have seen here that others have not purchased in that situation so that should be telling you it will be harder to sell if you ever want to.

The risk is just not worth it in my opinion. Don't let emotion of the want to get the house cloud your judgment.

K.Flyer

I would think that the issue is more complex than they are making out if they are unable to have it urgently resolved within a year.
Your solicitor is acting to protect you, he obviously doesn't like what he sees and advised you accordingly and the fact that he is prepared to walk away speaks volumes.
The builder just wants his money and if you go against your solicitor's advice, then the issue that the builder and his legal team can't resolve in a year becomes Your Problem, for you to pay for and to sort out yourself.

Try to find out what exactly is happening here (the backstory). The clause your solicitor asked for seems normal, in fact i would worry that with it you might be left hanging on for ages before you can close.

The response from the vendors solicitor was definitely strange.

There is no suggestion that the vendor doesn't own the lands that he built on, which would be a huge problem, so likely the issue could be fixed (paperwork). I wonder perhaps if the person who would need to give the necessary declaration is unable to do so eg elderly with dementia... which could be styiming efforts to tidy this up.

Another alternative is that prices have gone up and the developer isnt bothered about keeping present buyers so doesnt care if they are lost.

spaceHopper

If the bank find out they won't lend, if they don't and something happens later then they will go after you and your solicitor. He can't allow that you need to listen to him.

What do you think are the chances of the builder doing the paper work to "sort it out later" if they haven't been able to do it in the last year and you've paid them. It's Zero. Their solicitor know this which is way they won't accept the clause.

Stand you ground and walk but you can't give in.

woejus

Grawns wrote: »

I would go to another solicitor and push it through. Sounds like a paperwork error and while your solicitor is being very conscientious if you lose the house you will be paying an extra 10% in Dublin when you go to buy again.

Grawns would you buy a car without a log book? This is essentially what you're saying here.

brownej

Peregrinus wrote: »

One possibility is that those ten houses are on a different folio where this problem doesn't arise.

I'll say what others have said. Your solicitor is being paid to provide you advice, and why would you bother paying for advice if you don't intend to take it? The fact that he's willing to forgo your business (and associated fees) rather than proceed with this transaction tells you he's an honest and conscientious professional. Listen to him.

This could be it.
If you go to landdirect.ie and find the site it should show you if there are separate folios for the other houses that have sold.

godtabh

Was it built under licence? Common enough