90 day suspension of visas for certain countries

alastair

recedite wrote: »

By who? It can be attributed to Micky Mouse, but its still hearsay unless Micky agrees he said it.

It's attributed to the State Dept by the Wall Street Journal. Hearsay would require a third party to have communicated the statement.

recedite

Zappone wants to review the operation of US immigration pre-clearance at Shannon.
If she has a problem with US law, she should go back to the US and stand for election to Congress.
Maybe we could swop her for one of Trump's people, and then put them in charge of the Calais-Ireland migration program. That would be nice.

alastair

recedite wrote: »

Zappone wants to review the operation of US immigration pre-clearance at Shannon.
If she has a problem with US law, she should go back to the US and stand for election to Congress.
Maybe we could swop her for one of Trump's people, and then put them in charge of the Calais-Ireland migration program. That would be nice.

The granting of US immigration pre-clearance in Ireland would be an Irish legislative decision. That's the country she's been elected in.

Stheno

recedite wrote: »

Zappone wants to review the operation of US immigration pre-clearance at Shannon.
If she has a problem with US law, she should go back to the US and stand for election to Congress.
Maybe we could swop her for one of Trump's people, and then put them in charge of the Calais-Ireland migration program. That would be nice.

There is supposition that the ban affects the constutional rights of irish citizens who are dual citizens of one of the banned countries

Chips Lovell

If I were the kind of person who thought a ban on Muslims entering the United States would make the country safer, I'd be fairly disappointed with this.

It contains so many exceptions that it amounts to little more than tokenism. He's essentially banning all the muslims except the ones from countries he doesn't want to p**s off (which is quite a lot).

recedite

Stheno wrote: »

There is supposition that the ban affects the constutional rights of irish citizens who are dual citizens of one of the banned countries

There is, but that is Fake News.
If they don't get past US immigration officers, they remain subject to Irish law and continue to have whatever rights they already had.

Akrasia

recedite wrote: »

Can you link to that statement?

Here's a short video about those White Helmets and their funding.
I suspect that not only will they not get their visas, but their US funding will soon be severely cut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eRSYs2Qbq4

You consider RT a reliable source now?

It wasn't so long ago that if anyone even mentioned RT they would be sneered at

ancapailldorcha

There are a lot of posts here which are below the standard of the forum. Cut out the one-liners please.

recedite

alastair wrote: »

The granting of US immigration pre-clearance in Ireland would be an Irish legislative decision. That's the country she's been elected in.

Well its actually a mutual decision which either Ireland or the US could terminate.
But if that happened, we would be inconveniencing Irish people. If passengers don't complete the immigration clearance before they leave Shannon, they will have to stand in a long queue at the other end of the flight.

20Cent

Saw an interesting fact on twitter.
More Muslims have been killed by trump.supporters in the last 24 hours than Americans killed by refugees from.the banned countries in 30 years.

alastair

recedite wrote: »

Well its actually a mutual decision which either Ireland or the US could terminate.

It's a mutually agreed arrangement for sure, but one that is subject to Irish law, not US law. That's precisely why Zappone is entitled to comment on the legality of the arrangement.

Gatling

alastair wrote: »

It's a mutually agreed arrangement for sure, but one that is subject to Irish law, not US law. That's precisely why Zappone is entitled to comment on the legality of the arrangement.

Imagine 4 and 5 year old kids been detained and handcuffed in Shannon or Dublin for safety fears their would be murder over it here ,

dissed doc

recedite wrote: »

Well its actually a mutual decision which either Ireland or the US could terminate.
But if that happened, we would be inconveniencing Irish people. If passengers don't complete the immigration clearance before they leave Shannon, they will have to stand in a long queue at the other end of the flight.

Zappone is quite willing to put everything you have on the line to push her agenda.

Aren't you glad she represents you. She gets to gamble with security, international diplomacy, tax money.... and all with zero accountability.

I would be willing to have dual US-Irish passport holders stopped from boarding flights to Ireland, if it meant keeping Zappone over there where she is from.

alastair

dissed doc wrote: »

Zappone is quite willing to put everything you have on the line to push her agenda.

You seems a little over-invested in pre-clearance tbh. It's a little short of 'everything'.

dissed doc wrote: »

I would be willing to have dual US-Irish passport holders stopped from boarding flights to Ireland, if it meant keeping Zappone over there where she is from.

Brittas?

Gatling

Acting attorney General Sally Yates letter just posted in the NY times.

"On January 27, 2017, the President signed an Executive Order regarding immigrants and
refugees from certain Muslim-majority countries. The order has now been challenged in a
number of jurisdictions. As the Acting Attorney General, it is my ultimate responsibility to
determine the position of the Department of Justice in these actions.
My role is different from that of the Office of Legal Counsel (OLC), which, through
administrations of both parties, has reviewed Executive Orders for form and legality before
they are issued. OLC’s review is limited to the narrow question of whether, in OLC’s view, a
proposed Executive Order is lawful on its face and properly drafted. Its review does not take
account of statements made by an administration or it surrogates close in time to the issuance of
an Executive Order that may bear on the order’s purpose. And importantly, it does not address
whether any policy choice embodied in an Executive Order is wise or just.
Similarly, in litigation, DOJ Civil Division lawyers are charged with advancing
reasonable legal arguments that can be made supporting an Executive Order. But my role as
leader of this institution is different and broader. My responsibility is to ensure that the position
of the Department of Justice is not only legally defensible, but is informed by our best view of
what the law is after consideration of all the facts. In addition, I am responsible for ensuring that
the positions we take in court remain consistent with this institution’s solemn obligation to
always seek justice and stand for what is right. At present, I am not convinced that the defense of
the Executive Order is consistent with these responsibilities nor am I convinced that the
Executive Order is lawful.
Consequently, for as long as I am the Acting Attorney General, the Department of
Justice will not present arguments in defense of the Executive Order, unless and until I become
convinced that it is appropriate to do so."

This could get interested

Nody

Gatling wrote: »

This could get interested

She's fired already by Trump; because you know anyone who disagrees with him is wrong.

Rightwing

Nody wrote: »

She's fired already by Trump; because you know anyone who disagrees with him is wrong.

He didn't have much choice in fairness, she had to go. But could have been a little more tactful with the wording.

CMOTDibbler

Rightwing wrote: »

He didn't have much choice in fairness, she had to go. But could have been a little more tactful with the wording.

Although they start with the same letter, tactful and Trump have very little else in common.

FreudianSlippers

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

No, m'learned friend is very precise with his words.
I don't doubt you meant what you wrote.

I think you "know" me well enough from being both on the same side of issues and opposite; when I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I'll admit it.

In this case I made an incorrect and general statement which I genuinely didn't believe to be true. I put my hands up and apologise for a silly generalisation.

Now the South on the other hand... :pac:

FreudianSlippers

Stheno wrote: »

THat sounds worse to be honest.

E.g. if I were travelling from Syria to the US on my Irish passport what you've posted suggests the clampdown would apply to me?

Theoretically, yes, although the major complaint with the Executive Order is its drafting - in that it's not very clear what they mean to do.

However, given Trump seems to be indicating that he is relying on the 2011 and 2014 (or was it '15?) legislation introduced by the Obama administration, any person travelling to prescribed countries can be barred from obtaining a visa or (in the case of dual/US citizens) be required to enter the US on a visa as opposed to their US passport (which I don't really understand how that is Constitutional... but I digress).

FreudianSlippers

Stheno wrote: »

There is supposition that the ban affects the constutional rights of irish citizens who are dual citizens of one of the banned countries

I'm not sure how it does though. The US CBP in Dublin can only prohibit entry onto flights bound for the US. I'm not sure how that impacts any Irish Constitutional right?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

pilly

I think I said yesterday that I wouldn't be surprised if what he's doing is found to be unlawful. Even I wasn't anticipating that he would fire someone who said so! Is he going to keep firing people until they all agree with him?

FreudianSlippers

Gatling wrote: »

Imagine 4 and 5 year old kids been detained and handcuffed in Shannon or Dublin for safety fears their would be murder over it here ,

US CBP Officers have no powers of arrest or detention; until the person boards a US flag-carrier (pursuant to the normal aviation laws) they are subject to Irish law regardless of whether they have "passed" US CBP at a pre-clearance airport.

Akrasia

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Theoretically, yes, although the major complaint with the Executive Order is its drafting - in that it's not very clear what they mean to do.

However, given Trump seems to be indicating that he is relying on the 2011 and 2014 (or was it '15?) legislation introduced by the Obama administration, any person travelling to prescribed countries can be barred from obtaining a visa or (in the case of dual/US citizens) be required to enter the US on a visa as opposed to their US passport (which I don't really understand how that is Constitutional... but I digress).

What Obama did was make an amendment to the Visa Waiver Program, which applies to citizens from countries in that program (Typically friendly nations with no domestic terrorism issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Waiver_Program#Eligible_countries)

If an Andorran national wants to travel to the U.S. he can do so by a simple online application. Obama put in a clause so that if he had traveled to one of these listed countries within the previous 5 years, he loses the visa waiver, and has to apply for a visa under the standard process which is heavily vetted and rigorous and long.

Trump has manufactured this idea that there is no vetting of immigrants travelling to the US, this is only true of illegal border crossings, and people from the visa waiver program countries. Any citizen of Yemen would already have had to go through the extreme vetting of the U.S. immigration process before getting even a tourist visa to the U.S.

Trump's immigration policy is based on a false view of the world. He's leveraging his own popularity on uniting his supporters in hatred and fear. He is vilifying immigrants and especially Muslim immigrants. This is the first step on the road to the worst horrors of a repressive fascist regime.

FreudianSlippers

Akrasia wrote: »

What Obama did was make an amendment to the Visa Waiver Program, so that citizens from countries in that program (Typically friendly nations with no domestic terrorism issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Waiver_Program#Eligible_countries)

If an Andorran national wants to travel to the U.S. he can do so by a simple online application Obama put in a clause so that if he had travelled to one of these listed countries within the previous 5 years, he loses the visa waiver, and has to apply for a visa under the standard process which is heavily vetted and rigorous and long.

Trump has manufactured this idea that there is no vetting of immigrants travelling to the US, this is only true of illegal border crossings, and people from the visa waiver program countries. Any citizen of Yemen would already have had to go through the extreme vetting of the U.S. immigration process before getting even a tourist visa to the U.S.

Trump's immigration policy is based on a false view of the world. He's leveraging his own popularity on uniting his supporters in hatred and fear. He is vilifying immigrants and especially muslim immigrants. This is the first step on the road to the worst horrors of a repressive fascist regime.

Agreed - to be clear I wasn't suggesting that Trump was correct in his assertion that he was merely following the prior Obama administration legislation; merely that was his claim.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Akrasia

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

He's heading in that direction, but there are multiple paths he can take. He's following the fascist path almost step by step, but he could diverge at a later date.

Imagine someone travelling on the main Cork to Dublin road. They're heading for Dublin. It doesn't mean they won't turn off and end up in Kilkenny, but it's wrong to not say they're on the Dublin road at the start.

keane2097

Akrasia wrote: »

He's heading in that direction, but there are multiple paths he can take. He's following the fascist path almost step by step, but he could diverge at a later date.

Imagine someone travelling on the main Cork to Dublin road. They're heading for Dublin. It doesn't mean they won't turn off and end up in Kilkenny, but it's wrong to not say they're on the Dublin road at the start.

If he's carrying a time bomb and you live in Drumcondra, it's probably a mistake to wait till he gets to Dorset Street to start questioning his destination also.

CMOTDibbler

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Btw, it's 90 days for all citizens of the seven countries, 120 days for any refugee and an indefinite ban on Syrian refugees.

20Cent

The warning signs of fascism in the US holocaust museum.
Trump ticks most if not all these boxes.

frostyjacks

20Cent wrote: »

The warning signs of fascism in the US holocaust museum.
Trump ticks most if not all these boxes.

Get real. Ireland ticks most of the boxes too, if we're going down that road.

Trump is putting the safety of his people first. If European leaders had acted in a similar manner then we mightn't have had Nice, Bataclan, Cologne etc.

johnnyskeleton

20Cent wrote: »

Saw an interesting fact on twitter.
More Muslims have been killed by trump.supporters in the last 24 hours than Americans killed by refugees from.the banned countries in 30 years.

Mod note:

Something more than repeating what was said on twitter is required. Do you have any statistics for this?

At a guess, I assume that they are making the point that zero Americans have been killed by refugees from those countries, so any number even zero Trump supportera killing muslims will be the same or greater.

Nody

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Mod note:

Something more than repeating what was said on twitter is required. Do you have any statistics for this?

At a guess, I assume that they are making the point that zero Americans have been killed by refugees from those countries, so any number even zero Trump supportera killing muslims will be the same or greater.

I'd guess reference to the terrorist attack in Canada done by a Canadian who was a fan of Trump and murdered six Muslims.

CMOTDibbler

frostyjacks wrote: »

Get real. Ireland ticks most of the boxes too, if we're going down that road.

Really? Tell me more about our military supremacy, powerful nationalism, disdain for human rights, suppression of labour power, disdain for intellectuals and the arts and fraufulent elections to start with. I think we could argue over a lot of the rest too.

frostyjacks

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Really? Tell me more about our military supremacy, powerful nationalism, disdain for human rights, suppression of labour power, disdain for intellectuals and the arts and fraufulent elections to start with. I think we could argue over a lot of the rest too.

I said most, not all.

Nationalism - All the main parties are nationalist in their outlook, wanting Ireland to become a nation once again.

Sexism - Feminists are always harping on about the lack of women's rights here.

Cronyism - We wrote the book on that.

Corporate power - See Anglo, NAMA etc.

Crime & punishment - Special Criminal Court is a wartime court used against ordinary civilians.

We would want to get our own house in order before we start criticising others.

CMOTDibbler

frostyjacks wrote: »

I said most, not all.

Nationalism - All the main parties are nationalist in their outlook, wanting Ireland to become a nation once again.

Sexism - Feminists are always harping on about the lack of women's rights here.

Cronyism - We wrote the book on that.

Corporate power - See Anglo, NAMA etc.

Crime & punishment - Special Criminal Court is a wartime court used against ordinary civilians.

We would want to get our own house in order before we start criticising others.

We've dropped the 32 county Ireland objective from our constitution some time ago and most political parties are in favour of re-unification through consent.

But that's not even close to the kind of nationalism that Fascism represents. Maybe if you squint a lot whilst peeping through your fingers.

You're completely stretching sexism beyond breaking point.

The SCC remains to mitigate against jury tampering and intimidation. But again, this (draconian as it may seem to you) measure is nowhere near what Fascists would espouse. Freedom of expression is the first casualty of Fascism. We have nothing like that kind of oppression here.

There are 14 different headings on that poster. You've named five, of which three are a massive stretch and the other two are not exactly rampant.

That's not 'most'.

Inquitus

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

We've dropped the 32 county Ireland objective from our constitution some time ago and most political parties are in favour of re-unification through consent.

But that's not even close to the kind of nationalism that Fascism represents. Maybe if you squint a lot whilst peeping through your fingers.

You're completely stretching sexism beyond breaking point.

The SCC remains to mitigate against jury tampering and intimidation. But again, this (draconian as it may seem to you) measure is nowhere near what Fascists would espouse. Freedom of expression is the first casualty of Fascism. We have nothing like that kind of oppression here.

There are 14 different headings on that poster. You've named five, of which three are a massive stretch and the other two are not exactly rampant.

That's not 'most'.

Agreed and you could make a good case on all 14 for dear old Donald's incoming administration!

Akrasia

In case anyone wants a legal opinion on trumps a tions, there's a great podcast called "opening arguments" that examines these issues and other interesting legal issues in America

Yourself isit

20Cent wrote: »

The warning signs of fascism in the US holocaust museum.
Trump ticks most if not all these boxes.

That looks like it is on sale in a pound shop.

And the early signs of fascism were fascists calling themselves fascists taking over

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

frostyjacks

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

We've dropped the 32 county Ireland objective from our constitution some time ago and most political parties are in favour of re-unification through consent.

But that's not even close to the kind of nationalism that Fascism represents. Maybe if you squint a lot whilst peeping through your fingers.

You're completely stretching sexism beyond breaking point.

The SCC remains to mitigate against jury tampering and intimidation. But again, this (draconian as it may seem to you) measure is nowhere near what Fascists would espouse. Freedom of expression is the first casualty of Fascism. We have nothing like that kind of oppression here.

There are 14 different headings on that poster. You've named five, of which three are a massive stretch and the other two are not exactly rampant.

That's not 'most'.

We tick as many boxes as Trump's America. Anyone trying to link his regime to Nazi Germany must have learnt their history from Buzzfeed or such like.

CMOTDibbler

frostyjacks wrote: »

We tick as many boxes as Trump's America. Anyone trying to link his regime to Nazi Germany must have learnt their history from Buzzfeed or such like.

I made no comment whatsoever regarding Trump's America. Perhaps you could direct your post towards someone who did?

Inquitus

frostyjacks wrote: »

We tick as many boxes as Trump's America. Anyone trying to link his regime to Nazi Germany must have learnt their history from Buzzfeed or such like.

Trump's America ticks all 14 boxes to a degree, we don't even come close!

20Cent

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Fascism isn't just about concentration camps and gas chambers.

rossie1977

frostyjacks wrote: »

We tick as many boxes as Trump's America. Anyone trying to link his regime to Nazi Germany must have learnt their history from Buzzfeed or such like.

No we don't or anything even close. Nazi Germany are not the only fascist regime either as you had Franco's Spain and Pinochet's Chile

1. Nationalism is much stronger in the states and among the Republican party than in any of our parties aside from maybe Sinn Fein

2. Human rights - Trump has come out in support of torture and Gitmo where people are held without trial won't be closed under trump

3. Identification big enemies - Muslims, Mexicans, Chinese.

4. Military supremacy - Trump has called for massive uptake in military spending and nuclear capabilities despite the states already spending more than rest of world combined in this area

5. Sexism, Trump just picked most male dominated campaign in decades and we have already seen how he treats women verbally

6. Controlled mass media - any msm that disagrees with Trump is labelled fake news. Reporters have already been warned they face explusion from press briefings. Eventually it will be fall in line or lose access.

7. Obsession with national security - banning individuals and building a wall first week..

8. Religion and government - that's the states all over. The current vice president just happens to be a creationist.

9. Corporate power - pretty sure Trump will protect this and already is looking to greatly cut regulations and corporate tax

10. Labor power - Republicans and unions yeah not really a match. Regan showed what power the unions in America have if they challenge the president.

11. Distain for arts - attacks on TV shows and Hollywood's most famous actress within first week

12. Obsession with crime - continually thanks the police and has warned Chicago to cut murders or he would send in feds. Called for rape suspects in the past to be put to death

13. Corruption - Trump hasn't released his tax returns or fully exercised himself from his company despite being president.

14. Elections - gerrymandering is now rife in many red states. In addition places like north Carolina are no longer considered a democracy http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/311690-north-carolina-is-no-longer-a-democracy-report

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

Akrasia

rossie1977 wrote: »

No we don't or anything even close. Nazi Germany are not the only fascist regime either as you had Franco's Spain and Pinochet's Chile

1. Nationalism is much stronger in the states and among the Republican party than in any of our parties aside from maybe Sinn Fein

2. Human rights - Trump has come out in support of torture and Gitmo where people are held without trial won't be closed under trump

3. Identification big enemies - Muslims, Mexicans, Chinese.

4. Military supremacy - Trump has called for massive uptake in military spending and nuclear capabilities despite the states already spending more than rest of world combined in this area

5. Sexism, Trump just picked most male dominated campaign in decades and we have already seen how he treats women verbally

6. Controlled mass media - any msm that disagrees with Trump is labelled fake news. Reporters have already been warned they face explusion from press briefings. Eventually it will be fall in line or lose access.

7. Obsession with national security - banning individuals and building a wall first week..

8. Religion and government - that's the states all over. The current vice president just happens to be a creationist.

9. Corporate power - pretty sure Trump will protect this and already is looking to greatly cut regulations and corporate tax

10. Labor power - Republicans and unions yeah not really a match. Regan showed what power the unions in America have if they challenge the president.

11. Distain for arts - attacks on TV shows and Hollywood's most famous actress within first week

12. Obsession with crime - continually thanks the police and has warned Chicago to cut murders or he would send in feds. Called for rape suspects in the past to be put to death

13. Corruption - Trump hasn't released his tax returns or fully exercised himself from his company despite being president.

14. Elections - gerrymandering is now rife in many red states. In addition places like north Carolina are no longer considered a democracy http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/311690-north-carolina-is-no-longer-a-democracy-report

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

Regarding the last on the list. Trump was asked if he would respect the outcome of the election, he replied. "yes but only if I win"

Since the election still, he refuses to accept the results even though he won

frostyjacks

So he's right wing, get over it. This is how it's going to be from now on. Thats democracy. It's not like he didn't make all this abundantly clear during the election campaign. People should have rallied then, not now. Just have to be patient and wait four years now.

Overheal

rossie1977 wrote: »

No we don't or anything even close. Nazi Germany are not the only fascist regime either as you had Franco's Spain and Pinochet's Chile

1. Nationalism is much stronger in the states and among the Republican party than in any of our parties aside from maybe Sinn Fein

2. Human rights - Trump has come out in support of torture and Gitmo where people are held without trial won't be closed under trump

3. Identification big enemies - Muslims, Mexicans, Chinese.

4. Military supremacy - Trump has called for massive uptake in military spending and nuclear capabilities despite the states already spending more than rest of world combined in this area

5. Sexism, Trump just picked most male dominated campaign in decades and we have already seen how he treats women verbally

6. Controlled mass media - any msm that disagrees with Trump is labelled fake news. Reporters have already been warned they face explusion from press briefings. Eventually it will be fall in line or lose access.

7. Obsession with national security - banning individuals and building a wall first week..

8. Religion and government - that's the states all over. The current vice president just happens to be a creationist.

9. Corporate power - pretty sure Trump will protect this and already is looking to greatly cut regulations and corporate tax

10. Labor power - Republicans and unions yeah not really a match. Regan showed what power the unions in America have if they challenge the president.

11. Distain for arts - attacks on TV shows and Hollywood's most famous actress within first week

12. Obsession with crime - continually thanks the police and has warned Chicago to cut murders or he would send in feds. Called for rape suspects in the past to be put to death

13. Corruption - Trump hasn't released his tax returns or fully exercised himself from his company despite being president.

14. Elections - gerrymandering is now rife in many red states. In addition places like north Carolina are no longer considered a democracy http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/311690-north-carolina-is-no-longer-a-democracy-report

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

One just has to hope now that "the greatest country on earth" and it's constitution, that have been designed declaratively to prevent such regimes from taking over, is robust enough to do the job. More than likely, while we'll see some disfavorable bs the next few years I don't think we will quite go the way of Revenge of the Sith.

vetinari

frostyjacks wrote: »

So he's right wing, get over it. This is how it's going to be from now on. Thats democracy. It's not like he didn't make all this abundantly clear during the election campaign. People should have rallied then, not now. Just have to be patient and wait four years now.

Trump is a different category to the last few right wing presidents.
He's a lot more authoritarian than both Bushes or Reagan. Pretending he's like a normal right wing president is quite misleading.