Now Ye're Talking - to a Medieval Recreator

Boards.ie: Niamh

Our next AMA is with a boardsie who takes part in medieval re-enactments.

Medieval recreators research and recreate cultures that could plausibly have been seen in the courts of Europe before 1600. This covers everything from Romans to the Tudor era, all of Europe, and a good bit of Asia and Africa - but the group that this AMA is with concentrate on Medieval and Renaissance Europe.

They hold events where they dress in medieval gear, cook, eat, fight tournaments and battles, shoot, sing, dance, all in period style, and show off their craftwork and other accomplishments.

They are based in Ireland but are part of a global society that has 21 kingdoms - the Society for Creative Anachronism.

If you have any questions about what a medieval recreator is; how they do their research; how they recreate different elements of cultures; what happens at re-enactments; how they create costumes; how they learn to fight or anything else - let's hear them!

FYI: Different members of the group have different expertise so depending on the question they may take turns logging in to answer questions from the AMA account.

dartsplayer

when your doing the re-enactment. do you put your mind in the age of medieval times. as in to you pretend to be a lord of a manor and stick to that character or are you just joe bloggs working in IT

pxdf9i5cmoavkz

1. When doing combat re-enactments. How many participants are there on average and has a rout ever occurred? If so, from where did the rout start?

2. When in combat gear, do you usually only wear gambeson or do you combine a gambeson layer with chain mail?

razorblunt

Are toilets completely out of limits at these events? This is a serious question by the way, I always wanted to know where the line was drawn!

Sabre0001

Hey, thanks for doing this AMA.

How did you first get involved / interested in Medieval Recreation?

How frequently do re-enactments take place?

Do you do re-enactments for the public or is it more of a meetup for similarly minded people? If it's the latter, what's been your most memorable interaction with the public?

Manach

In re-creating Medieval cuisine, would you use basically the same means and methods that were available at the time.

Manic Moran

A more fundamental question, I guess, is what's the difference between a 'recreator' and a 're-enactor'?
We're all more familiar with the latter term, but I suspect that there's a reason that the less frequent one was used in the title.

Was there a notation system for music back then so that we know the tunes are the same? Or is the medieval music we hear today simply a composition of whatever noises sound 'nice' to us from the instruments we know existed?

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

dartsplayer wrote: »

when your doing the re-enactment. do you put your mind in the age of medieval times. as in to you pretend to be a lord of a manor and stick to that character or are you just joe bloggs working in IT

That varies from person to person. Our basic rule is that what you're wearing and using should look medieval from about 10 feet away - that sets the bottom bar, as it were. At the other end of the scale, there are people who are fully in character for the entirety of an event - some of which are ten days long, camping and cooking in medieval style - as Norman lords, mendicant monks, or Baghdadi sages (these being three people I know who go for that style).

That said, getting your mind into a fully medieval mindset isn't an easy thing - there are so many things that we take as being ordinary that were alien to them that it takes a fair bit of work to do so.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

Brynn Worried Thresher wrote: »

1. When doing combat re-enactments. How many participants are there on average and has a rout ever occurred? If so, from where did the rout start?

It varies massively. Our tournaments are one-on-one, I've seen up to 40 people on a field for a skirmish, and there are events in the larger kingdoms within the group where you could see up to 3000 people in a battle. When I've answered a few more questions here, and the newbie effect on the account has worn off, I'll post a link to a video or two that will show you potential scale of events.

As to routs, not often to my knowledge. There's a culture of courtesy and chivalry within the group, so there's often some movement of people from one side to another to ensure that a given battle is more even. And because we're fighting for fun (albeit full-contact in heavy armour fun), most people will fight to the 'death' rather than run away, unless there's some considerable tactical advantage to running.

Brynn Worried Thresher wrote: »

2. When in combat gear, do you usually only wear gambeson or do you combine a gambeson layer with chain mail?

We have some very firm rules about minimum armour which, again, I can link to once the newbie effect wears off, but we require the hands, elbows, knees, kidneys, neck, head and some vertebrae to be covered in 16-gauge steel or equivalent (and more, on the head), with a certain measure of padding. Some people wear only the minimum, others go for something approaching full gothic plate. Gambesons are pretty common, chain mail less so - this is an artifact of our using blunt 'tournament' weapons rather than sharp blades.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

razorblunt wrote: »

Are toilets completely out of limits at these events? This is a serious question by the way, I always wanted to know where the line was drawn!

It's a completely legitimate question!

We are re-creating the Middle Ages without the unpleasant bits, like dysentry, plague, early mortality, and so on. So we use the modern toilet facilities on site. I'm sure there are some of the hardcore realism folks among us who would relish digging latrines and so on, but most of the sites we use would object to that, I reckon, and it would be just as healthy as it was in the medieval period - that is, not very.

That said, I've done a week-long event where all the 'showering' was done with water heated over a fire, and done pretty well with that.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

I'm going to re-order your questions for my own coherency here, apologies!

Sabre0001 wrote: »

Do you do re-enactments for the public or is it more of a meetup for similarly minded people? If it's the latter, what's been your most memorable interaction with the public?

It's mostly a meet-up for similarly minded people. We do occasional demos, which we treat more as recruitment opportunities than drama, and there are some events where, as trade-off for having access to a castle overnight, the public get to come in and look at us during the day.

My most memorable interactions with the public go to either extreme. At one end, you've the chap who came along, spent a few hours looking at stuff and talking to us, and said, "I'll be back tomorrow!", and when he came back, was in full medieval kit, and had brought his medieval instruments to play while wandering around the camp and castle.

At the other end, you've the family where Elder Son, about 8 said, "Is that a real fire?", and Father, in his 30s, said "No, I'll show you," and went to put his hand in it. I shouted at him and nearly whacked him on the wrist with the poker I had in hand, because it was very definitely a real fire on which I was cooking.

And a friend of mine has been asked, of her infant son, "Is that a real baby?".

Sabre0001 wrote: »

How frequently do re-enactments take place?

Within Ireland, there are about ten events a year. Within the British Isles and Iceland (the Principality of Insulae Draconis), there's one every two weeks or so, on the average. Within the Kingdom of Drachenwald (Europe, Middle East, and South Africa), there's at least one every weekend, and sometimes more.

In addition, there are local practices. Within Dun in Mara (the branch covering the east coast of Ireland, essentially), we have weekly fencing, archery, and armoured combat practices, and arts & sciences (crafts, research, and so on) meets about every two weeks.

Sabre0001 wrote: »

How did you first get involved / interested in Medieval Recreation?

I've been interested ever since I discovered the concept, which was via a computer games magazine (I think it was Your Sinclair) in the early 90s, but I didn't make actual contact with the SCA until, on the way to a Medieval Baebes concert in Slane in about 2004, where I and a few friends were in medieval costume (terrible, terrible medieval costume), a guy came up to us and introduced himself. And it went from there.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

Manach wrote: »

In re-creating Medieval cuisine, would you use basically the same means and methods that were available at the time.

This is my very favourite area. I'm one of our more enthusiastic cooks and food researchers, so I will happily talk your ear off on this topic.

The short answer is: as much as possible, and as much as our knowledge allows us to do so.

There are some periods and places (Tudor England, 1600s Italy), where we have lots of recipes, lots of writing, even illustrations to work from, and we can (when we can afford it), get pretty close to an accurate recreation of the period methods. Or, strictly speaking, we think we're getting close - we have to bear in mind that we can't really check.

On the other end of the scale, there are periods and places (pre-Norman Ireland, anywhere in Scandinavia) where there are no writings, no recipes, no illustrations, and we have to work out from archaeological, archaezoological and archaeobotanical remnants what was going on in their cuisine.

In some cases, though, we end up bowing to practical limitations or being unable to afford the good stuff. If I have 60 people to serve lunch to (as I'll have for an archery event in April), then I'm going to for producing stuff that comes from a period recipe, but is cooked on a modern gas stove in modern saucepans - and that's ok.

A couple of years ago, I cooked for ten days for 20 people over a fire with two big cast iron pots and a griddle, with everything being either from period recipes (some from 10th century Baghdad) or with plausible period approaches (pottages and strews, griddled flatbreads). That was excellent. Hard work, but excellent.

When I'm at camping events, I drive for as much authenticity as I can. That means fresh or traditionally preserved ingredients, using my own knives, cooking over fires in cast iron or clay vessels, or roasting on spits, using either proper recipes or period ingredients. I haven't yet managed to get my hands on riveted iron pots (more common in the medieval era than cast iron) or soapstone pots (widely used in period, now quite expensive and hideously expensive to ship). In the riveted iron end of things, I want to get my hands on a big cauldron at some stage too - I want to be able to serve 50 or 60 people a pottage at a camp some day.

On the assumption that you don't want to read a whole thesis, I'll stop there, but do feel free to ask more questions about food!

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

Manic Moran wrote: »

A more fundamental question, I guess, is what's the difference between a 'recreator' and a 're-enactor'?
We're all more familiar with the latter term, but I suspect that there's a reason that the less frequent one was used in the title.

There's no hard border between the two, so this is my personal breakdown of the terms. Re-enactors are usually portraying a particular era, often a particular year, sometimes a particular day, in one culture. They go to enormous lengths to make sure their kit is authentic and that everything looks as it would have then. They put on shows for the public.

Recreators, like our group, are looking at a much wider period. I usually play as a Hiberno-Viking, Aodh Ó Siadhail, but I sometimes go instead for the persona of Jack Galliard, a Tudor merchant. I cook stuff from Tudor England, but I also cook stuff from 10th century Baghdad, because there's a really excellent cookbook ('al-Warraq') from that era, which has complete recipes and discussion [1]. Our fencing come from the 16th century, our armoured combat is completely re-invented, but sorta-kinda matches 15th century tournaments. On the other hand, re-enactors tend to put on the show and then go home (not true of all of them, I know), and we try to live our experiences.

So I've had evenings where, after a day's archery, with my right hand torn up a bit by arrows going over it, I've been sitting by a fire in Viking kit, talking to someone in 14th century French dress and a German Landsknecht (if you don't know them, do an image search - they're spectacular) about recipes, chivalry, and the architecture of the castle we're looking across the moat at. And drinking ale. From a horn. Because Viking.

And then there's our organisation into Principalities, Baronies, Kingdoms, and so on, the tournaments to decide who the next monarch will be, our courts, and other stuff that is completely made up so we have a structure within which to play - that's completely alien to the re-enactment experience, but it's a hell of a lot of fun.

And one other salient detail: we don't restrict what people can do by gender. If you're a big hairy bloke, and you want to do embroidery, more power to you, and you're a wee slip of a lady, and you want to get into armour and hit people, we will enable that too. It's not historically accurate, but it allows more people to have the experiences they're looking for, and it's fun.

Manic Moran wrote: »

Was there a notation system for music back then so that we know the tunes are the same? Or is the medieval music we hear today simply a composition of whatever noises sound 'nice' to us from the instruments we know existed?

Music isn't my area of expertise, so I'll see if I can get someone more knowledgeable within the group to answer that. I know that there is some period notation, and that there's been considerable work done on extrapolating from that, in much the same way as linguists reconstruct extinct languages.

[1] The translation I use is by Nawal Nasrallah, it's called Annals of the Caliphs Kitchens, and it is absolutely awesome.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Now that I've knocked the new-car smell off this account, some housekeeping:

I'm going to give the account details to some other members of the group, so you'll get some more answers. They may answer some things I've already looked at, in other directions, and I'll try to get everyone to identify who they are when they're posting, as I've done.

Here's a video that shows the breadth of what we do. It was shot in the Kingdom of Caid and the Kingdom of the West, I believe, which are California in the mundane world - which is why there's so much sun in the video! https://vimeo.com/196029359

And here, for JasonS246, are our armoured combat rules: http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/docs/marshal_handbook.pdf

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Thora posting.

Manic Moran wrote: »

Was there a notation system for music back then so that we know the tunes are the same? Or is the medieval music we hear today simply a composition of whatever noises sound 'nice' to us from the instruments we know existed?

Music isn't my area either, but I've picked up a bit.

Pitch was indicated on a stave, similar to now, with square notes, but there was no note length or bars.

Here's a 14th century piece of music:

Yates Thompson 25 f. 1
http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMIN.ASP?Size=mid&IllID=1783

We cover a huge period of time, so there were changes and variations. As far as I know, the precursor to this kind of notation was marks over lyrics to let you know the pitch went up or down.

And towards the end of our period, note lengths were indicated. Here's a 16th century example:

Barbireau illum [Public domain]

miamee

And then there's our organisation into Principalities, Baronies, Kingdoms, and so on, the tournaments to decide who the next monarch will be, our courts, and other stuff that is completely made up so we have a structure within which to play - that's completely alien to the re-enactment experience, but it's a hell of a lot of fun.

Do you write stories of what will happen during a recreation before it happens; is their a story line, a general direction or do you all just hang out in costume, eating and drinking and fighting with the items of the era? Just wondering if there is an element of an RPG to it especially with regard to who is the monarch etc. which you mentioned above

Do you hire an area of land to do these recreations or just go camping or something else? I think I saw a mention of being in a castle above?

Are there any festivals or events that the general public can experience these things at? I know there are some Viking festivals and some smaller events in the likes of Collins Barracks where people will demonstrate tool-making or weaving or something, is that something you also take part in?

ScumLord

Is everyone always a knight or noble? Do any people go for peasants in what the average man would have worn to battle?

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

miamee wrote: »

Do you write stories of what will happen during a recreation before it happens; is their a story line, a general direction or do you all just hang out in costume, eating and drinking and fighting with the items of the era? Just wondering if there is an element of an RPG to it especially with regard to who is the monarch etc. which you mentioned above

There's no preset story, and to some degree, we're just hanging out. In some ways there's no story at all, but in the process of holding tournaments, battles, competitions, and ceremonies, stories do appear. The King who Declared War on Himself, for instance, is a thing that happened 40-ish years ago, but still gets talked about today.

But there are also structures of things that happen every so often. Every six months, for example, there's a tournament fought to see who the next rulers of the Kingdom of Drachenwald will be. To enter, you need to be an authorised armoured fighter, have attended a certain number of other events in the past year, and have someone who'll rule with you if you win - a consort who inspires you. The consort can be anyone who'll agree to it - very often people fight for their real life partners, but it's not a rule by any stretch. And then when a given couple wins, there's the Coronation ceremony three months later, and they reign for 6 months. Three months into that reign, there's another tourney to decide the next couple, and so on. At courts, awards are given out by the royalty (membership of orders, including some fairly exclusive awards for the really high achievers, among them) and people are recognised for things they've done. And it builds into a long-term lived experience, more than a story per se.

miamee wrote: »

Do you hire an area of land to do these recreations or just go camping or something else? I think I saw a mention of being in a castle above?

Most of the events in Ireland take place in places like scout camps - dormitory accommodation, decent sized kitchens, and big halls. Some of the events in the UK take place in castles alright; it's both cheaper and easier to sort out there than here. And some are full-blown camping events, taking place in large campgrounds in Sweden, Finland, and Germany. Ffair Rhaglen, which takes place every August in Raglan in Wales combines several aspects; we camp in the grounds of Raglan Castle for 10 days, and have the place to ourselves overnight. A very few of the more scholarly events just take place in hotels, and can be hard to tell from conferences - the scribal and heraldic end of things, for example.

miamee wrote: »

Are there any festivals or events that the general public can experience these things at? I know there are some Viking festivals and some smaller events in the likes of Collins Barracks where people will demonstrate tool-making or weaving or something, is that something you also take part in?

We don't often do those, although there are a few occasions in any given year where some of us will put in an appearance at a fair or show of some kind. By and large, though, we're doing it for our own entertainment, as an immersive experience, and explaining stuff over and over to the public is... not immersive. For people that want to have a look, the best thing to do is come to an event. We'll lend clothing, feast gear, and other necessities, and let you have a go at most things. And since everything is run by volunteers, and we hit economies of scale very quickly, we can do a weekend event with full board and food for something in the region of €50 a head, all in, so it's not hideously expensive.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

ScumLord wrote: »

Is everyone always a knight or noble? Do any people go for peasants in what the average man would have worn to battle?

In broad theory, everyone is at least a minor noble. There are a few reasons for this - firstly, the historical record is very poor on what peasant life was like, and secondly, it would be very odd to have peasants hanging out with royalty.

But it's inevitably more complex than that. Some people take on the personae of peasants, or at least commoners, and put considerable work into it. It would be very unlikely, for instance, that a noble or chieftain of 11th century Viking Dublin would be cooking for 20 people over a campfire the way I've done. And one of our highest awards is for really good craftwork (and teaching, and number of other qualifying characteristics), which carries the title of Master or Mistress, which in reality would have been a very low-ranking title. And our Knights are a parallel to those craftspeople in the fighting arts, and again are some of the most-looked-up to people in the Society, despite 'knight' having been the lowest of the nobility in most of Europe.

We don't pretend that our ranks and awards mirror anything real; they're very much the 'game' side of the recreation. But they're given for real skills in armoured fighting (Knights), fencing (Masters of Defense), crafts (Laurels) and organising and running things (Pelicans).

Deep Thought

how do you plan who dies and when during the enactments

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

Deep Thought wrote: »

how do you plan who dies and when during the enactments

We don't. Our wars and battles are understood to be tournament entertainment - as indeed are our tournaments themselves. So if you 'get killed' in a tournament, you're just out of that tournament - and in many battles there are 'resurrection' rules like in paintball, so that you can get back in and fight some more. We're not operating to pre-arranged scripts, and indeed, there's a lot of personal honour bound up in acknowledging when you've been hit with a killing blow.

ezra_

This is a whole new thing for me, I only saw it on the boards home page and clicked through. Glad I did, it looks fascinating.

Can you tell me though, what is it precisely that you do, and more importantly; why?

Are you doing this to recreate the style of life that was in the past? Is it the historical side of it that is the most interesting aspect? Or is this just your form of escapism?

In short; from reading so far, I get a good sense of 'what' you do, I'm just less sure on the 'why'?

And for the obligatory less serious question - what did think of Timeline (either the book or the movie)?

quickbeam

It sounds like a lot of fun. How would a newbie get involved? Where would be the first port of call?

Sabre0001

Back for more:

Favourite medieval dish?

What are the worst injuries ye have seen (I imagine there's a few bumps and bruises after a meetup)?

You mentioned that people often fight for their partners - have partnerships been forged through recreations? And any medieval themed weddings?

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

ezra_ wrote: »

Can you tell me though, what is it precisely that you do, and more importantly; why?

Are you doing this to recreate the style of life that was in the past? Is it the historical side of it that is the most interesting aspect? Or is this just your form of escapism?

In short; from reading so far, I get a good sense of 'what' you do, I'm just less sure on the 'why'?

It varies from person to person. I can tell you what I get out of it, and maybe some of the other folks will chime in.

When I started out, it was a way to do armoured combat. 'Fighting' with swords and shields was something I'd done with my brothers since I was tiny, albeit the swords were sticks, the shields were saucepan lids, and the rest of the saucepan was as much armour as we had. And we weren't allowed hit each other properly. So finding a bunch of people who did that for fun was awesome. I also liked the medieval era (and fantasy, and RPGs), and the game aspect of it appealed to me as well. The fact that there's a king, and knights, and the knights have squires, and so on is sort of viscerally pleasing.

Since then, I've become much more interested in the historical side of it. "Experimental archaeology" is a growing field, and in some ways, that's what we do. Food history is my particular bag, and there's enormous interest in actually cooking what's in the historical record, where there's a record, and in getting together enough evidence to extrapolate where there isn't. Other people put serious research effort into dance, or armour, or tent-making, or brewing, or translation of medieval combat manuals, or whatever.

Most of the above is after-the-fact rationalisation, though. The most fundamental thing is that through the SCA, I have found hundreds of people who, to a close approximation, think like I do and like the things I do, and it's an incredible amount of fun. It's something like summer camp for grown-ups, ten or twelve times a year. It involves learning new stuff, developing new skills (and getting some recognition for it, which always helps), and meeting excellent new people as well as meeting again the excellent people I already met. See also the video I posted back up the thread, which showcases the awesomeness.

TL;DR: Like any hobby, I suppose: it's fun, I like the people.

ezra_ wrote: »

And for the obligatory less serious question - what did think of Timeline (either the book or the movie)?

I tried to watch it, I really did. But between the historical inaccuracies and the terrible plot and the weak characters, I didn't finish it. Although, to be fair, A Knight's Tale, which has a poor plot, only a few strong characters, and historical inaccuracy so thick you could walk on it, is the favourite film of many SCA folks, so... mileage may vary.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

quickbeam wrote: »

It sounds like a lot of fun. How would a newbie get involved? Where would be the first port of call?

If you want to meet a few people and try a few things in a non-immersive setup, you could come along to one of the weekly practices, which are promoted on our twitter account, @duninmara, and on our FB page, https://www.facebook.com/duninmara/. If you're not in or near Dublin, let me know and I'll point you at the local groups in your area, or at least someone who lives near you.

What I'd really recommend, though, is coming to an event as early as possible. The practices are fun, but they're not what we do; it's like helping make the float but not going to the parade. You don't need to do anything but book in advance and show up - we'll lend you clothing, cutlery and stuff to eat from, and any other necessities to try stuff out. You'd ideally want to go to an event that has a bit of everything, unless you already know what you're interested in. If you're into food, there's an event coming up in mid-March that will be all about food and maybe have some music, medieval games, and the like (but have almost no fighting or archery). If you'd like to see the armoured combat in full action, the Coronet Tournament is this month (although I think it might be booked out). If you want to see all the ceremony and pageantry, the Royal Coronation is in Ireland this year, for the first time in a very long time (the last one was in Finland, the one before in Germany, and so on). If any of that interests you, drop me a line at dmseneschal@gmail.com and we'll see about getting you to an event. At the absolute worst, it's a cheap weekend's food, board, and entertainment.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

Sabre0001 wrote: »

Favourite medieval dish?

This is not at all easy to answer. Let me give you a few of the ones I've cooked, since they're in different areas. And then a comment or two on other people's cooking.

First, there's a standard West European carb dish called frumenty. It's bascially cracked wheat (bulghur wheat) cooked in stock, with an egg or two mixed through at the end. It's traditionally served with roast venison, but it goes well with any red meat, stew, or the like. It's the medieval equivalent of egg fried rice, and I love it.

Second, there's a dish of leeks cooked with almond cream. I hadn't cooked much with leeks before this, and was surprised by how good it was when I tried it. When I served it at a feast, however, I had someone come up to me while it was still being served and say "I don't normally like leeks. But if you give me the rest of the pot, nobody needs to get hurt." We didn't give her the pot until everyone else had been served, but she then finished what was left, under the jealous gaze of several people who hadn't been as quick off the mark, and I've made it many times since.

Finally, from al-Warraq, there's a stew called mulahwaja, which uses lamb, onions, leeks, and spices. You put some honey on top when you serve it, and eat with flatbread of some kind, and it is awesome. I've received royal praise for this one.

In terms of other people's cookery, there've been some superb stews and pottages, and there's a cold chicken dish, also from al-Warraq, which is glorious, but my mind usually goes back to the pies. An apple pie sweetened with caramelised onion was one such, and there was a game pie a few years ago which I would cheerfully have eaten day and night. I did manage to wrangle an extra slice of it, but that was all. Oh, and one lady did a lamb bresaola - cured lamb leg - last year, and it was utterly fantastic. Which reminds me of one the Dukes, who made a glorious soft cheese... you get the idea.

Sabre0001 wrote: »

What are the worst injuries ye have seen (I imagine there's a few bumps and bruises after a meetup)?

We've had very few major injuries from actual fighting, oddly enough. There've been three fractures and breaks that I know of from tripping over stuff, but the most I've seen anyone get in a fight is a bad bruise. Someone gave themselves a nasty cut with an axe last year while trying to chop kindling. And if you whack your arm with a bow-string while engaging in archery, you can get something spectacular, as one lady demonstrated at Raglan a few years back - the kind of bruise that goes from wrist to bicep, and makes tattooists cry, because they couldn't ever produce those colours.

Other than that, I had an impressive bruise myself at once stage from being hit in the armpit - which you can't armour, really - which went from hip to elbow and went through some alarming shades of purple. And one lady, competing in a Coronet tournment, had a particular gap in her defence, which was shown by her being hit there about nine times in a row - her left thigh, under the shield. I've seen pictures, and you could see the shape of the armour plate there drawn out on her skin in perfect detail.

Sabre0001 wrote: »

You mentioned that people often fight for their partners - have partnerships been forged through recreations? And any medieval themed weddings?

I know of... man, I've lost count, at least a dozen couples who've met through the SCA (and there are probably hundreds, worldwide), and a number of medieval-themed weddings. A few people have had weddings at events, too. Given the romance of torchlit tournaments, royal feasts, the making of knights, and how damn good most people look in medieval clothing, it'd be astonishing if there weren't a good few relationships arising.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA wrote: »

Aodh posting:

It varies from person to person. I can tell you what I get out of it, and maybe some of the other folks will chime in.

...

Most of the above is after-the-fact rationalisation, though. The most fundamental thing is that through the SCA, I have found hundreds of people who, to a close approximation, think like I do and like the things I do, and it's an incredible amount of fun. It's something like summer camp for grown-ups, ten or twelve times a year. It involves learning new stuff, developing new skills (and getting some recognition for it, which always helps), and meeting excellent new people as well as meeting again the excellent people I already met. See also the video I posted back up the thread, which showcases the awesomeness.

TL;DR: Like any hobby, I suppose: it's fun, I like the people.

Aodhan posting:
Like Aodh, I think it comes down to "these are my tribe". For me, initially it was that I got to do Archery, which was always something I liked the look of but never had the opportunity.
Started, loved it, 5ish years later still do.
Honestly, if you'd asked me 5 years ago if I'd be happy to spend weekends wandering around in medieval gear, I'd have looked at you like you were crackers!
The people I've met are some of my best friends, and they're the kind of folks you can spend an entire weekend being super comfortable with.
Apart from anything else, my post apocalyptic skill set is definitely coming along nicely, with the archery and more recently learning how to use a sword properly (Fencing)
Btw, the Fencing we do is waaaay more entertaining than that wussy Olympic style stuff! Have a poke at YouTube for SCA longsword, that'll make a gender of your choice of ya!

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA wrote: »

Aodh posting:
I know of... man, I've lost count, at least a dozen couples who've met through the SCA (and there are probably hundreds, worldwide), and a number of medieval-themed weddings. A few people have had weddings at events, too. Given the romance of torchlit tournaments, royal feasts, the making of knights, and how damn good most people look in medieval clothing, it'd be astonishing if there weren't a good few relationships arising.

Aodhan posting:
Concur with Aodh, when you get into a group of people with such similar interests, romance does bloom fairly often!
While I was already with my lady before we started SCA, I did propose to her at the top of a castle tower on the last day of an event 🙂

CelticRambler

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA wrote: »

We are re-creating the Middle Ages without the unpleasant bits, like dysentry, plague, early mortality, and so on. So we use the modern toilet facilities on site. I'm sure there are some of the hardcore realism folks among us who would relish digging latrines and so on, but most of the sites we use would object to that, I reckon, and it would be just as healthy as it was in the medieval period - that is, not very.

We run a five-day public event here in France every year (music and dance, no sword fights!) 5000-ish visitors per day, with not a flush- or chemical toilet on site! :cool:

Kerrydude1981

What was your favourite recreation so far that you have taken part in?

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

CelticRambler wrote: »

We run a five-day public event here in France every year (music and dance, no sword fights!) 5000-ish visitors per day, with not a flush- or chemical toilet on site! :cool:

That's... I'm going to go for awesome, actually. But whatever about the modern premises and campsites, the castles would be really upset by us digging latrines on site.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

What was your favourite recreation so far that you have taken part in?

Much as I love Ffair Rhaglen, which happens every August in Wales, the honour currently goes to Cudgel War, a ten-day camping event in the Barony of Barony of Aarnimetsä (Finland), which takes place on a lakeshore, with a wood-fired sauna available for use. I spent a chunk of last year's event there working on medieval cloth-dyeing techniques on a small fire by the lake, and it was absolutely magnificent.

Gingereejit

Just as a matter of interest When/where is the event in France? And of course, what is it called?

Gloomtastic!

Went to the Viking revival in Clontarf a few years, brilliant fun for all the family.

Are there any revivalists you dread meeting up with due to their uncouth behaviour - barbarians, Picts or whatever?

cloudatlas

I tried to read Barbara Tuchman's 'A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century' and couldn't get into it. Any suggestions?

Kerrydude1981

Do you take part in any other recreations?

I know lads that do World War recreations and also do a bit of medieval stuff

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Are there any revivalists you dread meeting up with due to their uncouth behaviour - barbarians, Picts or whatever?

Every re-enactor, re-creator, or academic medievalist I've ever met has been lovely. Crazy in some very specific ways sometimes, but lovely.

There is, however, an event that takes place in the US, called Pennsic. It's probably the biggest event in the SCA, and it's been running every year for 40 years. It's nominally a war between the Kingdom of the East and the Middle Kingdom, but it's really 10,000+ people getting together to do medieval stuff for two weeks. There are a number of people who turn up to Pennsic, who aren't otherwise involved in the SCA. Some of these are folk who feel that dressing as pirates, gypsies, or whatever is fun, and it's close enough that nobody minds. There will invariably be a few people wearing faerie wings and elf ears, that kind of thing.

And then there are the Tuchux. They're not SCA, but they adhere to the rules when they come to Pennsic. Barely. They enter the battlefields as a unit, clad in the bare minimum of armour (and I mean the bare minimum; mostly wearing nothing but the armour) and fight like crazed berserkers. Their campground is essentially a Gor cosplay (novels by John Norman, not recommended for... anyone, really, IMO). I've never met them, but they're well known nutters within the SCA context.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

cloudatlas wrote: »

I tried to read Barbara Tuchman's 'A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century' and couldn't get into it. Any suggestions?

I'm going to list a few books here, in increasing order of scholarliness, as it were, and you can pick your own level. I'm assuming you're interested in the Medieval period in general, rather than the 14th century in particular, but shout if that's not the case, and I can go look for specifics.

Usefully, however, my first recommendation is for a book that's about the 14th century, Ian Mortimer's The Time Traveler's Guide to Medieval England: A Handbook for Visitors to the Fourteenth Century. It's well-written, accessible, and gives a good overview of daily life.

Terry Jones' Medieval Lives by he of Monty Python fame is similarly good and accessible. He approaches it somewhat more in terms of archetypes we have from the Middle Ages, and breaking them down into more realistic details.

Lacey & Danzinger's The Year 1000: What Life Was Like at the Turn of the First Millennium, An Englishman's World is a good rundown of a slightly earlier era, arranged in a slightly odd calendar format. Tom Holland's Millennium: The End of the World and the Forging of Christendom covers Europe in general in a more ordinary format. Of these two, I like Holland's better.

William Jordan's Europe in the High Middle Ages comes highly recommended, with the caveat that I haven't read it myself.

The very best thing you can read, pretty much, for an overview is The New Cambridge Medieval History. It's 7 volumes, though, and pretty expensive to buy (usually round €50 per volume), so you'd be better off to look for it via a library. I don't own a copy myself, but it's on The List (The List has about 200 books on it by now...).

And as a sort of a starter's guide to Medieval History, James Powell's Medieval Studies: An Introduction is worth getting your hands on.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Do you take part in any other recreations?

I know lads that do World War recreations and also do a bit of medieval stuff

I don't, myself, but I know a few who do. We have occasional visitors from Viking groups and other HEMA groups (fencing and wrestling), and a good few people in the UK are involved in other groups as well. Mostly, though, they're in or around the same period - it's expensive enough building up a re-enactment standard set of clothing and gear without trying to do so in two different eras.

Realt Dearg Sec

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA wrote: »

Terry Jones' Medieval Lives by he of Monty Python fame is similarly good and accessible. He approaches it somewhat more in terms of archetypes we have from the Middle Ages, and breaking them down into more realistic details.

This reminds me that when I was an undergraduate studying The Knight's Tale in the Canterbury Tales, we read Terry Jones's book on the topic. Although it's a detailed reading of the tale itself, it broadens out into a wider discussion of the social status and reputation of knights in that era, and argues that the then-prevalent reading of the knight's tale as one of chivalry and bravado was wrong, that it is in fact a satire on the degeneracy of knights and their fall from glory into disgrace at that time. Provides a huge amount of evidence, is academically rigorous but written in a lively and enjoyable style.

Which leads me to my question: do many of you have an interest in medieval literature? Does it form any part of the culture for you? You mentioned medieval academics, I knew a few medieval lit people when I was studying and they were always very passionate about the era and a bit strange into the bargain. Do many of them get involved?

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Which leads me to my question: do many of you have an interest in medieval literature? Does it form any part of the culture for you? You mentioned medieval academics, I knew a few medieval lit people when I was studying and they were always very passionate about the era and a bit strange into the bargain. Do many of them get involved

There are a number of academics involved, although they don't always want it known - mainstream academia used to look a little oddly at re-enactment of any kind, and still does in some places.

Nonetheless, medieval literature is a major source of contextual information about life in that period, and we use it pretty extensively. Indeed, for some periods - Scandinavia anytime before 1000CE, for example - literature (often written down somewhat later) in the form of the sagas is almost all we have apart from physical remnants. Major works like Beowulf, The Canterbury Tales, the various Arthurian tellings and retellings, the Decameron[1], and then the gloriously unreliable Bede and Gerald of Wales[2] are all widely used for things as disparate as researching relations between ranks, calligraphy practice, and wording for charters.

After that, we've a few people who do deep dives into literature for specific purposes. I went chasing after a reference a few years ago around the Frankish punishment of harmscar, wherein noblemen were made to carry dogs or saddles from one village to another (sounds trivial, but it was a pretty terrible punishment in their terms), and ended up puzzling out the medieval Latin myself to determine that no, the original text just said "dogs", and the later concept of "dead dogs" was a Victorian embellishment[3].

Other people write period-style poetry, and there is nothing whatsoever to make you dig into the structure and vocabulary of poetry of the era like trying to write some yourself. I've seen this done with Petrarchan and Shakesperean sonnets, with Anglo-Saxon poetry like in the Book of Exeter, and with troudabour songs from Occitan, off the the top of my head.

There was an extensive conversation about the concept of individuality (per Shakespeare, etc) at Raglan a couple of years ago, and I'm still mulling over some bits of that myself. Certainly the concept of interpersonal responsibility is stronger in Medieval than Renaissance writing[4].

Hopefully that goes some way toward answering the question? It's another thing I could ramble on all day about.



[1] One of those words where no matter what way you spell it, it looks wrong.
[2] Some of us had cause to look up what Gerald said about Irish coronation ceremonies recently. It was interesting, at least, but the guy running the event banned us from cooking horse, and I'm pretty sure we'd never get the king to swim in the broth anyway.
[3] Bloody Victorians.
[4] Citation needed.

CelticRambler

Gingereejit wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest When/where is the event in France? And of course, what is it called?

If that's a question referring to my post, our festival is all about music, (trad/acoustic) instruments and dance. You can find out more on the (dreadful) website here: lesoncontinu.com (or PM me for more details)

There are numerous mediaeval fêtes more in keeping with the theme of this thread throughout France, including "daily life" reconstructions, but I don't have the info to hand. The only one I knew well - a village reconstruction, which used to go on for a long weekend - has fizzled out in recent years.

For those interested in the bricks-and-mortar side of things, Château Guedelon is worth a visit - a long-term project (re)building a castle using only traditional techniques, including the on-site tool-making part of mediaeval building sites.

Realt Dearg Sec

Thanks, the Geraldus Cambrensis stuff takes me back to my first year history, eye opening is not the word!

RDM_83 again

Interesting stuff thanks.

How strict are you in terms of clothing, I presume you try and minimize modern fabrics and so on at a minimum? For the hiberno-viking character is there any primary sources to aid recreation? If you go all out for the garb whats it like to spend days in those clothes.
For the Tudor era I'm aware that there is lots of documented Sumptuary laws, do you apply that to your garb in relation to your "rank" or is it ignored as it may have been in the historical reality too?

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Interesting stuff thanks.

How strict are you in terms of clothing, I presume you try and minimize modern fabrics and so on at a minimum? For the hiberno-viking character is there any primary sources to aid recreation? If you go all out for the garb whats it like to spend days in those clothes.
For the Tudor era I'm aware that there is lots of documented Sumptuary laws, do you apply that to your garb in relation to your "rank" or is it ignored as it may have been in the historical reality too?

Aodhan posting:
The rule of thumb for new players is that you must make a genuine attempt to look period (pre-1600CE), such that you look periodish as seen from someone 10 yards away on the back of a galloping horse! Clothing in general is self governed in terms of strictness in our group at least, what usually happens is that in the beginning you'll borrow garb from exiting players until you make your own. Basically, don't turn up in jeans and a band t-shirt, though if you do someone will usually be able to lend you something a bit more period. Aodh will be able to talk about hiberno viking sources, not really my area.
Regarding wearing the clothes for days, they are generally natural fibres and so tend to be very comfortable. Of course, after a week without a shower, natural fibres will only take you so far, but still generally better than modern materials.
Re: sumptuary laws, again that's more of a self restriction when you're making garb, it's basically up to yourself.
We have a few restrictions on particular items, mostly with respect to symbols associated with specific orders. Example being, don't wear a laurel wreathe unless you're a Laurel, don't wear a crown or coronet unless you've earned one!

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

CelticRambler wrote: »

For those interested in the bricks-and-mortar side of things, Château Guedelon is worth a visit - a long-term project (re)building a castle using only traditional techniques, including the on-site tool-making part of mediaeval building sites.

I've been following the progress of Guedelon for a number of years now. It's fantastic, and visiting it is high on my list of priorities. It's very much in the SCA spirit - if I could rely on getting funding from somewhere, or a lottery win, I'd be digging the foundations for a Viking longhouse or a Norman towerhouse tomorrow. Or both. Both would be good.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

RDM_83 again wrote: »

How strict are you in terms of clothing, I presume you try and minimize modern fabrics and so on at a minimum? For the hiberno-viking character is there any primary sources to aid recreation? If you go all out for the garb whats it like to spend days in those clothes.

We're not at all strict, beyond "you must make an effort". As Aodhan said, most beginners borrow some gear from someone else - and a belted tunic over plain trousers and leather shoes is enough to blend in for guys, while a full-length dress in a simple style, again with a belt, and some head-covering for women can be pretty solid.

There are very few primary sources for Viking clothing. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a single fully extant garment from the Viking era, and the vast majority of clothing evidence is from graves (in Birka, Hedeby, and Jorvik, primarily) where fabrics were in proximity to metal and thereby preserved better[1]. As women tended to have more metal jewellery (or at least be buried with more), we have somewhat more scraps of women's clothing.

Most of what's there is extrapolated from very small pieces, with the result that almost all Viking outfits look similar - there's very little internal variation except in colour and specific fabrics. There are more excavations every year, though, and I live in hope of fully clothed bodies being extracted from bogs or glaciers or other high-preservation environments.

The clothes are extraordinarily comfortable. Part of this is because they're made from natural fibres, and part is because they're (usually) custom-made for each individual. I've been known, when I know I'm going to be at home for the day, to wear my Viking garb rather than jeans and tshirt. And my brát, the standout item of Irish medieval clothing (actually just three metres of thick woolen cloth) which acts as a cloak sees constant use - when I'm not wearing it as a cloak, it sits on the couch for people to wrap around themselves, or on the bed as an extra blanket. I've slept wrapped up in it, too, and been perfectly comfortable. It's also been a picnic blanket, wrapped around miscellaneous stuff in order to carry it, and can reliably keep the rain off three adults by a campfire.

Wearing the same garb for several days in a row is also more comfortable than with modern clothes. Seams don't tend to rub in the same way as on, say, jeans, for example. After a few days camping, I tend to smell more of woodsmoke than anything else, so I can't really say if the clothes pick up bodily odours more or less than modern ones.

For the Tudor era I'm aware that there is lots of documented Sumptuary laws, do you apply that to your garb in relation to your "rank" or is it ignored as it may have been in the historical reality too?

Irritatingly, while there's a lot of notes that there were sumptuary laws, tracking down what they were is quite difficult. Tudor England is better for that than, say, 16th Century Venice, but there are still gaps. And we're pretty sure that the laws were not observed as much as they might have been in period - indeed, paying the fines for clothing you weren't supposed to wear may have been a form of wealth display in some times and places.

Some people go very carefully about researching and following period laws; others go for the reliable method of duplicating the clothing in portraits, and having a persona of the same status as the depicted person.

Otherwise, as Aodhan noted, there are a few markers of rank and status within the SCA, which go a little way toward reproducing period sumptuary laws. White belts, unadorned chains and spurs are the markers of knights, for instance. Crowns and coronets go with other ranks, red, green, and yellow belts have significance, and there are a few other badges and signals (laurel wreaths, pelicans, silver arm-guards) which are to greater or lesser degrees reserved.

[1] There's a lot of chemistry in the explanation, and I'm not completely sure I understand it all, but the upshot is: bits of fabric with metal resting on them are often preserved.

Gloomtastic!

Is there a heirarchy or is everyone equal? Could you make yourself King or do you have to kill the existing holder, and his offspring to win the Crown?

CaptainR

Has the popularity of shows like Game of Thrones increased the number of new people joining? Are there any areas of the show (if you watch it) that are quite accurate as opposed to films made 20+ years ago?

Obviously its fantasy but some parts seem that they could be realistic enough such as the dreariness of being in an army or the way battles are fought.

I'm a medieval recreator, AMA

Aodh posting:

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Is there a heirarchy or is everyone equal? Could you make yourself King or do you have to kill the existing holder, and his offspring to win the Crown?

There is hierarchy, and this is a thing that some people have difficulty with - some Irish people in particular refuse to deal with the notion of a king, even in a game. The King and Queen (or King & King, or Queen & Queen, in theory) are at the top of that hierarchy. There's a strict order of precedence after that: duchies, counties, viscounties, bestowed peerages, court baronies, grants of arms, awards of arms, and then anyone else. The concept of the order of precedence is real (and was deeply important in the latter end of the medieval era), but our form of it is not all that reflective of reality.

You cannot make yourself King by fiat. To become King, you need to enter and win the crown tournament. To enter the tournament, you need to be an authorised armoured fighter, have a consort who will enter with you, and have attended a minimum number of events in the kingdom in the previous 12 months. To win, you need to be a really good heavy fighter, because all the other entrants want to win too, and they've been training in this stuff for years - sometimes ten or twenty years. If you win that, and you're male (or more strictly, your persona is male - there are some women with male personas and vice versa), you become King by Right of Arms, and your consort is King or Queen (sometimes styled 'by right of grace and beauty').