Roundabout right of way

Dravokivich

GM228 wrote: »

I think it's safe to assume "to" means including.

When dealing with time for example, 9 to 5 means exactly that, not 9 to 4.59.

That's the point I was making about between 12 earlier.

GM228

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's the point I was making about between 12 earlier.

"Between" and "to" mean totally different things though.

To would include the starting and ending amounts, but if something is between two amounts, it is greater than the first amount but smaller than the second.

"Between the 12 o’clock to the 6 o’clock position" is an example of where they have applied that reasoning. Between 12 and to 6 rather than between 12 and 6 is specific in that it's after 12 but up to and including 6 - i.e a full 360 turn.

Dravokivich

GM228 wrote: »

"Between" and "to" mean totally different things though.

To would include the starting and ending amounts, but if something is between two amounts, it is greater than the first amount but smaller than the second.

"Between the 12 o’clock to the 6 o’clock position" is an example of where they have applied that reasoning. Between 12 and to 6 rather than between 12 and 6 is specific in that it's after 12 but up to and including 6 - i.e a full 360 turn.

Between the 12 to the 6 means, 12 is the first valid value. Not 12:00:01.

coylemj

You guys didn't take long to prove my point, it is an ambiguity.

Dravokivich

coylemj wrote: »

You guys didn't take long to prove my point, it is an ambiguity.

There's nothing ambiguis about it. If you need to change lanes that's already referenced much earlier in the book. If the have to cross reference that all over the book, I'll be overly complicated to read.

If you ask someone to pick a number from 1 and 10 or between 1 and 10, are they not allowed to pick 1?

Gooser14

bubblypop wrote:

To be honest if it was me or if anyone I knew told me this happened to them, I wouldn't just leave it. Did they actually take your photo? Or was it just a threat of some kind? I wouldn't like that Tbh. Seems very strange behaviour. I would write to the local superintendent & see who conducted this checkpoint. If you honestly feel like making a complaint you are quite entitled to. GSOC are tasked with investigating complaints against gardai, that's their job.

Delacent wrote:

In absence of any markings directing otherwise, left lane for standard first and second exit, right lane for third exit.

That's how it used to be but is no longer the case. RoTR now use the clock system to illustrate the lanes and exits to use. I preferred the old method as described by you above.

GM228

Dravokivich wrote: »

Between the 12 to the 6 means, 12 is the first valid value. Not 12:00:01.

From 12 to 6 would include 12, between 12 and to 6 excludes 12. Not trying to be smart, but look up the definition of "between" in any dictionary and you will see between never includes the start or finish. We all make that mistake but the proper use of the word is to exclude the start and end point.

Between is specifically used in that instance for a reason.

Dravokivich

GM228 wrote: »

From 12 to 6 would include 12, between 12 and to 6 excludes 12. Not trying to be smart, but look up the definition of "between" in any dictionary and you will see between never includes the start or finish. We all make that mistake but the proper use of the word is to exclude the start and end point.

Between is specifically used in that instance for a reason.

I've looked up a few definitions, I didn't see anything to indicate what you've just said where the value is excluded. such as http://www.thefreedictionary.com/between

1.
a. In or through the position or interval separating: between the trees; between 11 o'clock and 12 o'clock.
b. Intermediate to, as in quantity, amount, or degree: It costs between 15 and 20 dollars.
2. Connecting spatially: a railroad between the two cities.
3. Associating or uniting in a reciprocal action or relationship: an agreement between workers and management; a certain resemblance between the two stories.
4. In confidence restricted to: Between you and me, he is not qualified.
5.
a. By the combined effort or effect of: Between them they succeeded.
b. In the combined ownership of: They had only a few dollars between them.
6. As measured against. Often used to express a reciprocal relationship: choose between riding and walking

When talking of values or origin/destinations, they're are not omitted by any means.

Even logic criteria on a Between command will accept the start and end.

There's just unnecessary doubt being cast over a word used here.

coylemj

Give it up lads.

Yanu

Thanks for the answers guys.

When I go through this roundabout it feels right to stay on the left lane to go straight but I have asked as many people don't. I have forgot to mention that there are no signs on the road and I think there should be. It shouldn't be left to the drivers discretion.

Just in case some of you wondered, the roundabout is in Oranmore, CO. Galway. Drivers from Galway will go through this roundabout and go left if they want to go to the Dublin direction and straight to the Limerick direction. It would make sense to me if there were signs telling people to use the right lane to go straight as that would spread the traffic a bit.

Thanks again.

CalamariFritti

Easy answer. The car that has the exit lane, the left lane.

sydthebeat

Jesus, just read six pages of crap that has descended into semantic arguments.

In general, dont enter a roundabout in the right lane unless you are taking an exit after 12o'clock. If going straight ahead enter on the left and don't indicate until after you pass the exit before the one you want to take.

Therefore EVERYONE using the roundabout should know what exit you want to take.

trellheim

very worried here folks. left lane is left and straight ahead right turn is exit 3 and beyond no wonder there are so many accidents. Thats how I was taught and how I expect folk to believe

the amount of people here who expect the right lane can go straight i.e exit 2 in a normal flowing situation is troubling ( and yes its just the ROTR but what worries me more is people thinking they're right )

galwaytt

Dravokivich wrote: »

On entry to a round about that's similar to a clockface, with no signs or markings stating otherwise,

Entry from 6 o'clock position.


Right lane can take 12 o'clock ... .

Nope, wrong.

CalamariFritti

Whatever about what the right lane can do or can not do....
Coming back to the OP. What it definitely cannot do is expect right of way if the exit only has one lane.

Surely there can't be any arguments about that.

my3cents

Yanu wrote: »

Thanks for the answers guys.

When I go through this roundabout it feels right to stay on the left lane to go straight but I have asked as many people don't. I have forgot to mention that there are no signs on the road and I think there should be. It shouldn't be left to the drivers discretion.

Just in case some of you wondered, the roundabout is in Oranmore, CO. Galway. Drivers from Galway will go through this roundabout and go left if they want to go to the Dublin direction and straight to the Limerick direction. It would make sense to me if there were signs telling people to use the right lane to go straight as that would spread the traffic a bit.

Thanks again.

Hands up if on a daily commute I could save myself waiting in the left hand lane for a queue of cars in front waiting to turn left I might use the right hand lane to go straight on.

I would however be aware of cars in the left lane going straight on and adjust my speed so we wouldn't be arguing over whose right of way it was.

TimeToShine

In conclusion you can exit at 12 o'clock in either the left or right hand lane but if you are doing so from the right you must give way to the left.

CalamariFritti

Well every time you are changing lane the onus is on you to make it safe. If you are exiting from the right lane into a single lane exit you are changing lane.

Isambard

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Well every time you are changing lane the onus is on you to make it safe. If you are exiting from the right lane into a single lane exit you are changing lane.

and you obviously can't do this if you are alongside someone on your left and thus they have the right of way.

CalamariFritti

Isambard wrote: »

and you obviously can't do this if you are alongside someone on your left and thus they have the right of way.

Yup obviously.

Isambard

you'd think!

Corca Baiscinn

Hands up if on a daily commute I could save myself waiting in the left hand lane for a queue of cars in front waiting to turn left I might use the right hand lane to go straight on.

How does that work? If the traffic taking the left exit is held up and is in a queue waiting to get on the roundabout is that not because there is already traffic on the roundabout?, (ie coming from the right) So how are you able to go straight without meeting the same traffic coming from your right?

TimeToShine

People have different perceptions of what "traffic" is on a roundabout. Some people would drive you mad not paying attention to people indicating off/not anticipating space and you get congestion as a result

n97 mini

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Hands up if on a daily commute I could save myself waiting in the left hand lane for a queue of cars in front waiting to turn left I might use the right hand lane to go straight on.

How does that work? If the traffic taking the left exit is held up and is in a queue waiting to get on the roundabout is that not because there is already traffic on the roundabout?, (ie coming from the right) So how are you able to go straight without meeting the same traffic coming from your right?

It's waiting to go left at the roundabout but can't because there's an obstruction past the roundabout, like a bloody pedestrian crossing.

Hilly Bill

The one that has the right away is the one that will approach the exit first. The car on the left may be in the correct lane but if the car on the right is slightly ahead then it's best to let them finish the manover. It's the same when two lanes merge into one on a straight road, you just merge in turn.

Del2005

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The one that has the right away is the one that will approach the exit first. The car on the left may be in the correct lane but if the car on the right is slightly ahead then it's best to let them finish the manover. It's the same when two lanes merge into one on a straight road, you just merge in turn.

There's no merge in turn in this country, the person changing lane has to give way.

Isambard

usually what happens is the white line between the lanes finishes and then there is only one lane and you merge in turn, ie the car furthest forward has priority.

CalamariFritti

If it is so far forward that there is no conflict, yes the car from the right may do that, but I wouldn't exactly call it priority. If there is a hint of conflict it has to give way. I mean what is so difficult to understand about that? You're exiting from the left lane. If you're not in it then there is no way you could possibly have right of way or be on equal footing.

Edit: I'd love to see your face in that situation. You're on the left and someone on your right who is just a tad ahead pulls across your nose to demand 'priority' in that situation. You'd go ape**** and rightly so. I mean what the actual? How could someone possibly think that way?

Edit2: The only time slightly different rules would apply if the road leading up to the roundabout, the roundabout itself and the exit road were jammed and we're all going at snails pace. Then courtesy would suggest we all merge nicely into the exit. But even then strictly speaking if the guy on the left doesn't like the look of you or is having a bad day he doesn't have to let you in.
But if we were all going at normal speeds there is no way the right lane had any foot to stand on.

Hilly Bill

Del2005 wrote: »

There's no merge in turn in this country, the person changing lane has to give way.

There is, if a car is ahead of you on the right and is merging into the same lane as you then you are not going push forward and block them coming in unless you are in a bmw. It's common courtesy and can avoid collisions.

grogi

Isambard wrote: »

if there is only one lane at the exit, both cars should have been on the left lane approaching the roundabout.

Firstly, it does not answer the question.

And secondly - how should they know? If I am driving around new area, I have no idea how many lanes there are at the exit.

grogi

Yanu wrote: »

Hi,

Sorry for the dumb question...

Two cars on a two lanes road (one in each lane) approach a roundabout and there is only one lane at the second exit (straight ahead). Who has the right to pass? The one driving on the left lane or the one on the right one?

Thanks

At the exit point, the RED car in the right lane has to give way to the LIME cars in the left lane, regardless where they are going.

Why? Before exiting the RED needs to change the lane to the left one. It might do it very quickly and exit immediately, but it is still lane change. As such the right of way needs to be given.

grogi

Dravokivich wrote: »

To be honest, I wouldn't get too caught up in who has right of way. You seem to know that other car is there. I'd be inclined to keep a track of where they are to make sure i don't collide with them, even if there is something incorrect they do.



No it isn't.

On entry to a round about that's similar to a clockface, with no signs or markings stating otherwise,

Entry from 6 o'clock position.

Left lane can take 9 o'clock and 12 o'clock.

Right lane can take 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock.

Which rule in the Traffic Acts would define that?

CalamariFritti

grogi wrote: »

Firstly, it does not answer the question.

And secondly - how should they know? If I am driving around new area, I have no idea how many lanes there are at the exit.

The OPs question has been answered many many times.

And to your second point.
Then you are in bad luck and have to go around again. Happens.
But more likely than being in bad luck you are a pushy person who thinks their journey is more important than other people's if you approach a roundabout you don't know in the right lane in that situation.

grogi

coylemj wrote: »

Wrong.

Where there are no lane markings, the Rules of the Road page 109 (roundabouts) states as follows........

Making a left turn;

• Signal left and approach in the left-hand lane.
• Keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

Going straight ahead

• Approach in the left-hand lane but do not signal yet.
• Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

Taking any later exits

• Signal right and approach in the right-hand lane.
• Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout.

The amount of nonsense in this thread starts to frighten me...

ROTR are not law!

It is a compilation from the law to make it accessible for drivers, but it does not make law. Law is in the Statue Book, and AFAIK there is nothing like that there.

grogi

my3cents wrote: »

As I said above, give way to traffic on your right (but I've not a clue where I got that from?) which may be how a judge would look at it?

I'd be keeping my eyes open and giving way whatever lane I was in just because you never know what some idiot will do on a roundabout.

There is a rule to give right to the traffic on the right (let's just ignore the fact that this rule makes a lot of sense in LHD traffic, but in RHD not so much). But it applies only if any other rule does not.

In this case the rule of giving right to the cars on the lane you are changing to prevails.

grogi

GM228 wrote: »

I think you are missing the point, first of all it would be up to the plaintiff to prove the defendent was in the wrong, not that they themselves were in the right.

The balance of probabilities is about proving something did or didn't happen as in the defendent was in the wrong.

Even in a civil case regarding such a situation you would still have to prove that the defendent was wrong in how they were supposed to act, the only way to do that is to fall back to the law as only the law dictates how someone is supposed to act in such circumstances, not the ROTR.

You can't hold someone liable for not doing something which isn't required of them to do in the first place.

And even if you could produce the ROTR it is still an opinion of the RSA on how best to act, not a requirement on how to act, even in civil cases there are rules of evidence, evidence produced must be a proof of facts, the ROTR isn't a proof of facts in relation to the rules of the road, only the law is. There is a long standing High Court decision (AG (Ruddy) vs Kenny   (1960)  ILTR  185,  190) dealing with this issue (coincidently in relation to a motoring issue) that an opinion is not admissable as evidence in a court, only the opinion of an expert witness is admissable.

Thank you for taking time to write this down.

grogi

sydthebeat wrote: »

Jesus, just read six pages of crap that has descended into semantic arguments.

In general, dont enter a roundabout in the right lane unless you are taking an exit after 12o'clock. If going straight ahead enter on the left and don't indicate until after you pass the exit before the one you want to take.

Therefore EVERYONE using the roundabout should know what exit you want to take.

The discussion is not about good manners, but about legal standing.

Good manners are great, but sometimes, either by lack of knowledge of the roundabout topology, mistake or anything else the good manners are not good enough.

grogi

CalamariFritti wrote: »

The OPs question has been answered many many times.

Reached that now I really need to lear how to use the Multi-quote

CalamariFritti wrote: »

And to your second point.
Then you are in bad luck and have to go around again. Happens.
But more likely than being in bad luck you are a pushy person who thinks their journey is more important than other people's if you approach a roundabout you don't know in the right lane in that situation.

You really don't know me. I am polite and calm driver, but unfortunately I am allergic to stupidity, repeating myths and any form of mambo-jumbo.

mikeymouse

They knew how to do roundabouts in Milton Keynes when they planned the city
Roadmarkings and signs would eliminate any confusion.
In the op's case 'if there are no markings or signs advising the use of the right lane to go straight on. then the left lane should be used,
unless they are familiar with the road layout ahead and knows there are two lanes on his exit.

Hilly Bill

grogi wrote: »

The discussion is not about good manners, but about legal standing.

Good manners are great, but sometimes, either by lack of knowledge of the roundabout topology, mistake or anything else the good manners are not good enough.

I wouldn't argue of the legal standing on the way to work.

grogi

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I wouldn't argue of the legal standing on the way to work.

That's why this thread, so that you can get acquainted with it, know it and don't have to think about it on your way to work.

Hilly Bill

grogi wrote: »

That's why this thread, so that you can get acquainted with it, know it and don't have to think about it on your way to work.

If you are not acquainted with the rules of the road the getting a bus would be a better option.

trellheim

All I gather from this thread is that several people have very different opinions and have no intention of changing

CramCycle

I love roundabout discussions, they do exactly what they say on the tin :pac:

2 lanes entering with one lane on the far side. Stay in the left lane and indicate once past the last turn before yours. The only exception to this is where it is clear that almost everyone in the left lane is using the first exit, and you can see this (can happen with an obstruction just past the roundabout out the first exit), then move into the right lane and enter the roundabout, indicating to change lane and then exit the roundabout as soon as it is safe and clear to do so.

In Ireland, god only knows, I see cars entering in the left turn only lane on the M50/Sandyford roundabout to go all the way around to the third exit for Dundrum. I see it alot. To the point where some people must think this is reasonable behaviour.

CalamariFritti

grogi wrote: »

You really don't know me. I am polite and calm driver, but unfortunately I am allergic to stupidity, repeating myths and any form of mambo-jumbo.

Why would you not be? I know i used the 'you' but I thought we are talking in hypothetical scenarios here. Not about the actual you and the actual me.

And as it happens I'm the same. All of it.

CalamariFritti

trellheim wrote: »

All I gather from this thread is that several people have very different opinions and have no intention of changing

Well there is one thing which is talking on the internet and then there is another thing which is the real world.

I wonder how many of the people seemingly arguing that line would fancy their chances in court after cutting across from the right lane into a single lane exit with someone on their left? Or better how many of those would see nothing wrong with it if they sat in the car that has the left lane?

I dare say not many.

I'd. be a very calm man in court if I was in the left lane.

Hilly Bill

I've often gone straight from the right side on roundabouts but if a car was on my inside the id let it exit before me. It's only an issue in the event of an accident and you are looking at who's to blame.

Corca Baiscinn

It's waiting to go left at the roundabout but can't because there's an obstruction past the roundabout, like a bloody pedestrian crossing.

I thanked you for the explanation as hadn't thought of that but now I have a new question. What are "bloody" pedestrians supposed to do when all their business is not on the same side of the road?

Del2005

Isambard wrote: »

usually what happens is the white line between the lanes finishes and then there is only one lane and you merge in turn, ie the car furthest forward has priority.

If the white line between the lanes ends then the overtaking lane ends and the driving lane continues, car in the overtaking lane is supposed to give way when changing lanes.

mikeymouse

Del2005 wrote: »

If the white line between the lanes ends then the overtaking lane ends and the driving lane continues, car in the overtaking lane is supposed to give way when changing lanes.

The driving lane is also obliged to accomodate merging traffic ie; use the "zipper method"