Are insurance companies completely taking the piss now?

farmchoice

in effect what happened to the car insurance market is this.

a number of years ago, about 5 or 6, a few companies started selling car insurance for less then what it cost them to pay their claims and make a profit ( companies like 123.ie quinn etc)

the reason they did this was for ''market share'' ie do more business write more policies, but because they were doing so at a loss they were digging a great big hole for themselves. the reason they did this insane thing was because everyone from the guy in the call center up to the ceo was getting paid on the basis of the number of policies written (not on the ultimate profitability of the policies).

so when a policy should have been €400 they were selling it for €300, in fact because they were so cheap they were now selling 5 extra ones at the €300 price.
the result of this was a growing and growing hole in their finances. in another business selling extra products makes up for the lower price, with insurance it makes things much much worse because all you get is extra claims and less money to pay them with.

the rest of the companies then followed the few who started it, they ignored all the advice of their own actuaries and just lowered their prices.

they did this because again the managers who made these crazy decisions got paid a bonus based on the number of policies sold. (a system they implemented themselves by the way)

and on it went until the day of reckoning came and prices had to go way up to make up the difference.

now this is a simplified version and the companies will argue its other factors driving the increases but by and large they are trying to muddy the waters and take attention away from their own culpability.

Special Circumstances

^ by and large it's still the same people in charge, same culture, same intelligence, same ability, same honesty, same ...

The kind of people who would stoop to proffering a 75% increase in carjackings as a credible reason for across the board increases of such magnitude.

The media are complicit in the whole thing by regurgitating any ol spin at all the insurers produce as a press release.

Allinall

EIRE forever wrote: »

yea ive seen that corporation, they should be sued by every man in this country

What- no women allowed sue?

Dr Crayfish

whisky_galore wrote: »

If you're a city dweller, single or a couple with no kids, with access to decent public transport, well then yes fine.

Beyond that, people are more or less forced to get one.

I'm aware of that, but so many people like me drive to work and make unnecessary journeys all the time.

Dr Crayfish

Why are there no mass protests over this madness?

Widdershins

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Why are there no mass protests over this madness?

Good question. Personally, I'm too busy. Partly with trying to earn the money to pay for insurance!

I live far from any town a protest's likely to be held in Getting there, parking, and enduring the crowds e.t.c would be a nightmare for me. I avoid doing that for any other reason anyway.

Noobsaibot21

Get a quote from Its4women.ie

The name is simply marketing and is pretty much the same crowd as 25plus.ie. They will not refuse to quote men as that would be discriminatory. Decent price (compared to the competition anyway)

ScumLord

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Why are there no mass protests over this madness?

Because we're like the frog in boiling water. Increase the temperature slowly enough and we complain but go along with it.

The whole thing is bull****. I know a guy who got a quote and bought a car based on it. Turned out he got the model wrong (was just trim, not mechanical specs) and was told it's be an extra grand. Went to a broker and got a quote cheaper than the original one but still with the original insurer. It's completely made up.

Noddyholder

A demonstration was held in Dublin city centre today to protest at the cost of motor insurance for young drivers.

One of the organisers, Kian Griffin from Killorglin, Co Kerry, has been driving for years years with no penalty points or convictions.

In the Dáil last month Minister for Finance Michael Noonan said a taskforce has been established to review the motor insurance industry.

https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjxlIT-iO_RAhWFXRoKHf25DL8QFggmMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rte.ie%2Fnews%2F2016%2F0702%2F799699-motor-insurance-protest%2F&usg=AFQjCNHCyomadv7M_5vbLuy-659uEJSo6g


That was held last year, don't know what's happening now ?

Dr Crayfish

A movement needs to start where no one pays insurance until it's sorted out. Would the Garda arrest everyone who wasn't compliant?

Widdershins

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

A movement needs to start where no one pays insurance until it's sorted out. Would the Garda arrest everyone who wasn't compliant?

Not a chance I'd be willing to take. I'd say yes, I think they would.

VinLieger

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Why are there no mass protests over this madness?

Cus theres no populist votes in insurance reform

Cantona's Collars

Posted in motors that Aviva who were chuffed to learn they were the cheapest around last year for me @ €440 (€90 dearer than I got in 2015) sent me a renewal letter with a quote of €540 for this year.
I honestly think insurance companies have a big tombola and just pick random numbers out of it for quotes.
I've 20+ years of driving with no claims.

Wheeliebin30

Multiple car vehicle crash on the m50 as we speak people.

Think about the 100s of thousands this will cost in payouts for vehicle write offs repairs etc.

Leave out personal claims for a moment.

People are too careless on the roads and it goes unpunished.

ScumLord

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Multiple car vehicle crash on the m50 as we speak people.

Think about the 100s of thousands this will cost in payouts for vehicle write offs repairs etc.

But how much would those multiple cars have paid in insurance? The state is probably paying insurance on the road too. They're costs are covered I wouldn't worry about them at all.

People are too careless on the roads and it goes unpunished.

That's true, especially in Dublin, it's everyman for himself up there and inventive uses of hard shoulders.

We could do with having some driver etiquette like they have in the UK. Over there everyone takes their turn and if the traffic gets as bad as it does in Dublin there's probably been an accident. For the most part no matter how congested it gets over there the traffic is always moving.

Special Circumstances

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Multiple car vehicle crash on the m50 as we speak people.

Think about the 100s of thousands this will cost in payouts for vehicle write offs repairs etc.

Leave out personal claims for a moment.

People are too careless on the roads and it goes unpunished.

If they banned whiplash as AIG want to happen then several of those people could suffer in silence and we'd all save a few cent. Serve them right for staging a scam accident on the M50.

Or somebody in AIG would have a new yacht.

Any odds on which is more likely?

Wheeliebin30

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Multiple car vehicle crash on the m50 as we speak people.

Think about the 100s of thousands this will cost in payouts for vehicle write offs repairs etc.

Leave out personal claims for a moment.

People are too careless on the roads and it goes unpunished.

Avoidable accidents causing massive delays should lead to disqualifications.

Parchment

Car insurance is far cheaper in Poland where they have often not great roads, much older cars and the obvious dangers of very cold/harsh winters. I go there regularly and some people drive like lunatics there - overtaking 3 cars in a go is normal!

Ireland has ok roads, generally newer cars and mild weather all around.

Dont see what careless driving/the amount of accidents caused in Ireland has got to do with the price of insurance here.

Wheeliebin30

Special Circumstances wrote: »

If they banned whiplash as AIG want to happen then several of those people could suffer in silence and we'd all save a few cent. Serve them right for staging a scam accident on the M50.

Or somebody in AIG would have a new yacht.

Any odds on which is more likely?

In fairness if someone is injured in a road accident you can't assume they are faking every injury.

It can lead to problems some very serious. What about medical bills loss of work, mobility, the hassle in getting a new car and dealing with insurance companies etc. Then that's all before injuries to back.

I know there is chancers out there but most are honest. Been the victim of a serious road accident is very traumatic.

My point is careless drivers causing these accidents need to be dealt with. Drivers just do what they want and get away with it.

Wheeliebin30

Parchment wrote: »

Car insurance is far cheaper in Poland where they have often not great roads, much older cars and the obvious dangers of very cold/harsh winters. I go there regularly and some people drive like lunatics there - overtaking 3 cars in a go is normal!

Ireland has ok roads, generally newer cars and mild weather all around.

Dont see what careless driving/the amount of accidents caused in Ireland has got to do with the price of insurance here.

Every accident you see leads to payouts for new cars repairs claims etc.

Insurance companies use it as an excuse to up their prices to cover all these aspects.

It all counts.

Parchment

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Every accident you see leads to payouts for new cars repairs claims etc.

Insurance companies use it as an excuse to up their prices to cover all these aspects.

It all counts.

Yes but im saying that in a country where there are likely to be more accidents (poland) due to conditions how can their insurance be cheaper?

boardsuser1

Parchment wrote: »

Yes but im saying that in a country where there are likely to be more accidents (poland) due to conditions how can their insurance be cheaper?

Cost of living is more or less cheaper than Ireland.

Be interested in hearing from any boardsies from Poland what the legal system is like for personal injuries, I suspect awards are minimal compared to here hence the cheaper policies.

ScumLord

Parchment wrote: »

Car insurance is far cheaper in Poland where they have often not great roads, much older cars and the obvious dangers of very cold/harsh winters. I go there regularly and some people drive like lunatics there - overtaking 3 cars in a go is normal!

It's not Poland but when I was in Slovakia the main roads had a hard shoulder and people just used the hard shoulder to get out of the way of faster cars and let them through. They don't seem to have that spiteful habit of making sure they hold up everyone else because they feel the speed their doing is what everybody else should be doing.

Wheeliebin30

KC161 wrote: »

Cost of living is more or less cheaper than Ireland.

Be interested in hearing from any boardsies from Poland what the legal system is like for personal injuries, I suspect awards are minimal compared to here hence the cheaper policies.

I don't think personal injuries are the reason for high premiums.

I think there is many factors but insurance companies are using this one as an excuse.

jonon9

Insurance companies in this country are a farce. I was quoted by Liberty insurance €6800 for a 1.1lr. I'm 32 provisional licence. My gf rang up the same company and gave the same details as I did and she got a quote of €3700. Talk about been sexist. How anyone can afford nearly 7 grand on insurance is madness.

suicide_circus

Parchment wrote: »

Car insurance is far cheaper in Poland where they have often not great roads, much older cars and the obvious dangers of very cold/harsh winters. I go there regularly and some people drive like lunatics there - overtaking 3 cars in a go is normal!

Ireland has ok roads, generally newer cars and mild weather all around.

Dont see what careless driving/the amount of accidents caused in Ireland has got to do with the price of insurance here.

I've spent quite a bit of time in eastern Europe myself. Plenty of utterly reckless and downright suicidal driving on dodgy roads. Looking at the stats confirms that Poland's roads are more hazardous;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

I would say the difference is the non-fatal stuff. A bump which a Pole might walk off an Irish person would call for 10 ambulances and get awarded 50 grand. As with so many things in life, we need to look at ourselves first when figuring out a problem.

PANDDDKP

jacksie66 wrote: »

So my own car decided to start dying on me last week. It's a 03 Opel Vectra GTS 1.8. I'm paying Allianz 1500 a year to drive the thing as I need a car for work. 29 and a full license since 2006 but there you go. Anyways I went to Cork yesterday to pick up a new car I bought. Tis a 03 Vectra GTS pretty much exactly the same as my old one. The only difference was the colour and the much lower milage. Same car, year, engine, everything. When I was there I rang the insurance company to change over the insurance, thinking because it's the exact same car it'd be a straight swap. But nooooo. I had to pay 90 euro because my old car was a GTS sport and my new one was a GTS Elegance. So I was charged more for different spec, even though both cars are identical. You'd say something if it had a higher bhp or something but the differences are only cosmetic. What is it with insurance companies in this country fleecing us?

Same happened me at xmas. Sold a 2011 car that was a 1.5TDI and went to a 2014 1.2 petrol. Had to pay an extra 55 quid because the 1.2 was a faster car I was told..... Faster my hole.

They'll spoof any sh1te because they'll get away with it, if you or I cancelled the policy there and then it'd cost us more to get a new policy, so unfortunately there's nothing we can do except pay.

Arcade_Tryer

Drivers who use the M50 should be liable for extra loading. Behaviour of drivers on it is disgraceful. There should rarely be accidents on a road of its size and quality, yet there are incidents daily, due mainly to tailgating, misuse of indicators and driving at inappropriate speeds. My diagnosis: Bad Driving.

boardsuser1

jonon9 wrote: »

Insurance companies in this country are a farce. I was quoted by Liberty insurance €6800 for a 1.1lr. I'm 32 provisional licence. My gf rang up the same company and gave the same details as I did and she got a quote of €3700. Talk about been sexist. How anyone can afford nearly 7 grand on insurance is madness.

Fcuking hell :eek:

Provisional or not that is madness for your age.

Widdershins

jonon9 wrote: »

Insurance companies in this country are a farce. I was quoted by Liberty insurance €6800 for a 1.1lr. I'm 32 provisional licence. My gf rang up the same company and gave the same details as I did and she got a quote of €3700. Talk about been sexist. How anyone can afford nearly 7 grand on insurance is madness.

That's the most expensive quote I've ever heard of :eek:

My first quote was 3k..soon went down to 450 through a different insurer

jonon9

Widdershins wrote: »

That's the most expensive quote I've ever heard of :eek:

My first quote was 3k..soon went down to 450 through a different insurer

I wish I could say I'm lying but I'm not. Other insurers wouldn't give me a quote but could my girlfriend who's also 32.

Special Circumstances

Special Circumstances wrote: »

If an insurer said to you "look you're a learner in your 30s. We are going to have to load you as if you were a liar trying to hide a driving ban or other conviction. We honestly haven't a b@lls who we're insuring and we don't care because we can keep loading decent people and they have to buy our product"... you'd feel a little hard done by wouldn't you?


If an insurer said to you look, you were the completely innocent parked stationary victim of a banned driver who ran into you. We can't insure you, or anyone that was in the car with you, as a driver for at least 5 years ... you be both confused and angry surely?

Might be relevant to repeat this for some new posters.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Elemonator

Contact Noel Rock TD. He's just introduced a bill on ticket touting and I'm sure if we get petitions together, the same could be done for insurance. He seems to be one of the few with integrity in that chamber.

CaptainR

Car insurance is shocking, last year when I was 20 I got a quote of 5600 for a seat arosa 1.0L on a learner permit. I got a motorcycle L permit and insured a 125cc bike for 800. Then this year I was able to insure the 125 and a 500cc for 675.

I haven't even passed my test yet and I'm paying less than people in this thread who are driving 15 years.

bear1

Re poland.
I'm not Polish but due to work I've got a car there.
Upsides: motor tax is lobbed into fuel but the more expensive the oil the higher your motor tax goes. As of last week it was about 1.15 for diesel.
Insurance in itself for the sweet feck all 3rd party is quite cheap but....
Downsides: if you even think about wanting full insurance you are fleeced.
Toll roads cost a fortune.
The car must always be insured no matter what and if you don't then you can expect a hefty fine.
My insurance (full) with 6 years ncb was 400 euro odd.
This year that went up to nearly 600e and there wasn't anything I could do about it.
Now, 600e isn't such a bad amount for fully comp but imagine being on a salary which in warsaw is roughly 1k a month and having to fork out 600e on insurance..
Their cost of living isn't exactly dirt cheap either.
Electronics and clothing can be cheaper in Ireland.
Police advises who is to blame and not the insurance company so it's a fairly unfair process imo.

boardsuser1

CaptainR wrote: »

Car insurance is shocking, last year when I was 20 I got a quote of 5600 for a seat arosa 1.0L on a learner permit. I got a motorcycle L permit and insured a 125cc bike for 800. Then this year I was able to insure the 125 and a 500cc for 675.

I haven't even passed my test yet and I'm paying less than people in this thread who are driving 15 years.

The Mrs can fcuk off and get her own car insurance. I'm getting another bike

To hell with my car renewal this year :pac:

Sam Kade

Widdershins wrote: »

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks the new cars ''for the environment'' thing is a cod

Throwing an eco motion or blue motion badge on a monster car together with a sales spin seems to fool a lot of people.

Calibos

Was expecting to be raped after all I'd read about insurance increases for the last couple of years.

43 year old Male, Full Licence since '95. Full no claims. No points, 2.0T Audi TT. <20,000mpy. Fully Comp protected no claims yadda yadda yadda

Insurance with 123/RSA went from €530 to €650 this year. Can't complain really.

Sue Pa Key Pa

bear1 wrote: »

My insurance (full) with 6 years ncb was 400 euro odd.
This year that went up to nearly 600e and there wasn't anything I could do about it.
Now, 600e isn't such a bad amount for fully comp but imagine being on a salary which in warsaw is roughly 1k a month and having to fork out 600e on insurance..
.

So, in Poland, you can pay around 5% of your annual wage on insurance, which would equate to €2,250 here based on an average wage here of €45k

https://lovindublin.com/news/this-is-the-average-wage-of-a-full-time-worker-in-ireland

Special Circumstances

^you're in luck Fred, the proverbial horse's mouth is on thread now to explain the learner driver in their 30s dangers.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Surely it would be very difficult to hide a ban or past convictions. I fail to understand how someone could re-invent themselves.

Grandeeod

I made this point on another insurance thread a few months back.

Left Ireland in 2011. My insurance was 420 per annum. I didn't renew it once it came to an end in 2012. I came back to Ireland in late 2015 and looked for a quote. My no claims bonus had expired, despite never having made any claim whatsoever. I had been insured since 1996 on a full license with the same company. I was renting a car abroad so had no evidence of insurance in my name.

The quote - €1900 and it hasn't changed as of October 2016. I've shopped around and its like they all know my situation. No joy. So I'm renting from a reputable car hire company and its costing me less than a monthly car loan and insurance for a fairly new car that I have no maintenence on. Not ideal, but got me back on the road.

Corcaigh84

Special Circumstances wrote: »

If they banned whiplash as AIG want to happen then several of those people could suffer in silence and we'd all save a few cent. Serve them right for staging a scam accident on the M50.

Or somebody in AIG would have a new yacht.

Any odds on which is more likely?

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/aig-urges-ban-on-whiplash-claims-to-cut-premiums-1.2548667

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish-insurance-industry-is-clobbered-by-the-courts-34514662.html

Two main reasons which are interlinked: Greedy cute whoor Paddy has a tip, fakes his whiplash (all the numbers back up the Irish propensity for being dishonest regarding insurance claims) and has a laugh down the pub telling his mates about his €10k+ claim.

His solicitor is also a greedy Paddy, so going to court is great for him. You might have heard of the Injuries Board, which was designed to settle such claims and keep them out of the courts and wasting valuable court time. Of course, as time went on the Judges decided it would be a great idea to keep awarding higher and higher claims, negating the value of the Injuries Board.

You might wonder why there is so little competition in the Irish motor market - European insurers don't want to touch us with a barge pole, we are simply an unprofitable market for the reasons listed above.

Exaggerated injuries and artificially high payouts hurts ALL of us. (and I don't work for AIG btw )

Special Circumstances

thefloss wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/aig-urges-ban-on-whiplash-claims-to-cut-premiums-1.2548667

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish-insurance-industry-is-clobbered-by-the-courts-34514662.html

Two main reasons which are interlinked: Greedy cute whoor Paddy has a tip, fakes his whiplash (all the numbers back up the Irish propensity for being dishonest regarding insurance claims) and has a laugh down the pub telling his mates about his €10k+ claim.

His solicitor is also a greedy Paddy, so going to court is great for him. You might have heard of the Injuries Board, which was designed to settle such claims and keep them out of the courts and wasting valuable court time. Of course, as time went on the Judges decided it would be a great idea to keep awarding higher and higher claims, negating the value of the Injuries Board.

You might wonder why there is so little competition in the Irish motor market - European insurers don't want to touch us with a barge pole, we are simply an unprofitable market for the reasons listed above.

Exaggerated injuries and artificially high payouts hurts ALL of us. (and I don't work for AIG btw )

You'd punish the genuine cases?

VinLieger

Special Circumstances wrote: »

You'd punish the genuine cases?

Whiplash is bullsh1t, we are one of the few countries left that payout for it

Wheeliebin30

VinLieger wrote: »

Whiplash is bullsh1t, we are one of the few countries left that payout for it

So you're saying neck and back injuries don't ever occur if someone is hit from behind in a car and their car is declared a write off?

So everyone is making these injuries up?

Wibbs

Grandeeod wrote:

Left Ireland in 2011. My insurance was 420 per annum. I didn't renew it once it came to an end in 2012. I came back to Ireland in late 2015 and looked for a quote. My no claims bonus had expired, despite never having made any claim whatsoever. I had been insured since 1996 on a full license with the same company. I was renting a car abroad so had no evidence of insurance in my name.

I've heard similar more than once. Their "risk assessment" can often come across as throwing darts at actuarial tables. I was chatting to a taxi driver last week and his insurance is pretty much the same as mine only he has fully comp, I'm only TPFT. Yet his milage in a month would run to what I'd do in a year and he's carrying passengers 8 hours a day, 6 days a week all over the city and county fully comp. Neither of us had any claims, yet apparently I'm the same risk at TPFT?

So I'm renting from a reputable car hire company and its costing me less than a monthly car loan and insurance for a fairly new car that I have no maintenence on. Not ideal, but got me back on the road.

I was tempted to go a similar route to you TBH, but then I'd have been "off the books" for a year as far as the insurance industry is concerned and would have been even more buggered next year(plus though I don't use it much, I need the car on reserve).

Special Circumstances wrote: »

You'd punish the genuine cases?

I'd love to actually find one first. A chap I know was involved in a crash where someone drove into the back of his stationary car with enough force to move his (heavy) car nearly 30 feet down the road and leave it looking like it was dug outa godzilla's footprint. Did he sustain injuries? Yes. Whiplash? Nope. Ditto for the muppet who hit him. Yet apparently slight rear end tips in traffic leave so many with necks a hangman would be proud of? Get off the stage.

It's mostly a scam perpetrated by chancers and encouraged by some members of the legal profession and yes, insurance companies. They've had long enough to cry foul over such payouts and yet here we are. IMH if an injury can't be measured by medical science* I'd cap any payout at 2000 quid. More than enough to compensate for a crick in the neck if present.




*including any mental trauma. We've enough qualified bods in psychiatry and psychology to weed out most chancers.

Wibbs

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

So you're saying neck and back injuries don't ever occur if someone is hit from behind in a car and their car is declared a write off?

Depends on what is termed a right off. The value of the car vs the cost of repair can right off even quite minor damage. Rear end damage can be harder/more expensive to sort out satisfactorily too. The front very basically is more "bolt on", the rear more the chassis itself. A kink in the rear floorpan enough to throw out alignment could be very pricey to fix. So someone driving say a ten year old car worth two grand on the open market could sustain what looks like minor damage and be written off by the insurance company, because to repair it could cost the guts of the value of the car.

So everyone is making these injuries up?

IMHO the vast majority are either making it up, or massively exaggerating the impact and longevity of any injury present. May not even be deliberate either, but given the legal precession taking it seriously many may believe their injury is far more real than it is. The placebo effect, with a side order of payout effect going on.

armabelle

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Because they are robbing thieving money grabbing bas*tards.

Only because the system is designed to allow them to. It isn't thieving if it is legal now is it?