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Notice to Leave Tenancy

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  • 31-01-2017 11:27pm
    #1
    Micmonoc
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭


    Hi there,

    I have a 13 month lease agreement with my tenant, due to end on 5th Feb. We sent him a renewal and request for inspection last week. He called this week to say they're moving out...on Sunday. He believes that because the lease is up, he has the right to leave without serving proper notice. Would anyone have any input on this one? I know it's standard for 6 weeks notice to be required once they're there more than 12 months but the fact his lease is up is throwing me a bit.

    Thanks in advance.


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    #2
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Over 12 months tenancy is 42 days notice, what have you on the contract?

    If you want to stick to your guns, inform them of this and keep the deposit as they haven't given the correct notice. But, getting tenants out is a nightmare, if you can rent at a higher rate and the demand is there, let them off.


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    #3
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    You can only keep enough to cover your losses. If you're in a high demand area this will be minimal and certainly not worth the interaction with the RTB.

    Next time I'd forget about the lease agreement and just go with Part IV.


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    #4
    Cherrycola
    Registered Users Posts: 1,378 ✭✭✭Cherrycola


    As a tenant in a similar position, as far as I'm aware of it's a fixed term lease then the tenant does not have to give you any notice that they are leaving at the end of that fixed term, as by its very nature the 'fixed term' is up.
    At least I hope that's the case as I'm hoping to find a new place in the next 4 weeks before my fixes lease is up!
    If I had to give 6weeks notice before I could leave my current place, and probably start a new lease in the meantime to hold the new place, it means paying rent in two places for one month! No one has that kind of money to throw away.


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    #5
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Cherrycola wrote: »
    As a tenant in a similar position, as far as I'm aware of it's a fixed term lease then the tenant does not have to give you any notice that they are leaving at the end of that fixed term, as by its very nature the 'fixed term' is up.
    At least I hope that's the case as I'm hoping to find a new place in the next 4 weeks before my fixes lease is up!
    If I had to give 6weeks notice before I could leave my current place, and probably start a new lease in the meantime to hold the new place, it means paying rent in two places for one month! No one has that kind of money to throw away.

    The notice and what ever happens in the case of a new one not being signed should be provided for in the (pointless) fixed term lease.


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    #6
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Cherrycola wrote: »
    As a tenant in a similar position, as far as I'm aware of it's a fixed term lease then the tenant does not have to give you any notice that they are leaving at the end of that fixed term, as by its very nature the 'fixed term' is up.
    If you intend on leaving, you give notice.


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    #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Cherrycola wrote: »
    As a tenant in a similar position, as far as I'm aware of it's a fixed term lease then the tenant does not have to give you any notice that they are leaving at the end of that fixed term, as by its very nature the 'fixed term' is up.
    At least I hope that's the case as I'm hoping to find a new place in the next 4 weeks before my fixes lease is up!
    If I had to give 6weeks notice before I could leave my current place, and probably start a new lease in the meantime to hold the new place, it means paying rent in two places for one month! No one has that kind of money to throw away.

    You can't just leave at the end of your lease, you must give the required notice which depends on how long you have been living there. If you are living there 1 year or more but less than two you have to give your LL 6 weeks notice.


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    #8
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    the_syco wrote: »
    If you intend on leaving, you give notice.
    Cason Old-fashioned Nunnery wrote: »
    You can't just leave at the end of your lease, you must give the required notice which depends on how long you have been living there. If you are living there 1 year or more but less than two you have to give your LL 6 weeks notice.

    I believe there is a waiver for mutual consent. If a LL has sought a fixed term lease then there is mutual consent. If the lease is silent on the matter then I believe it's up for debate.


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    #9
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Libertarian Kant wrote: »
    I believe there is a waiver for mutual consent. If a LL has sought a fixed term lease then there is mutual consent. If the lease is silent on the matter then I believe it's up for debate.

    A LL can agree that a tenant can move out in a shorter period but it wont be dealt with in the lease it must be discussed. Having a fixed term lease does not mean a tenant can leave without giving the required notice set out in the RTA or at the time of giving notice mutually agree a shorter move out period.


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    #10
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Cason Old-fashioned Nunnery wrote: »
    A LL can agree that a tenant can move out in a shorter period but it wont be dealt with in the lease it must be discussed. Having a fixed term lease does not mean a tenant can leave without the required notice set out in the RTA.

    If the LL has chosen to give the tenant a fixed term lease I'd argue he's give the tenant notice at the commencement of the lease. For example if the lease is to run from the 31st Jan 2016 to 31st Jan 2017 that's simply 365 days notice agreed by both parties.

    I'm open to, and obliged for, correction on the basis of the RTA dealing with fixed term leases.


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    #11
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Libertarian Kant wrote: »
    If the LL has chosen to give the tenant a fixed term lease I'd argue he's give the tenant notice at the commencement of the lease. For example if the lease is to run from the 31st Jan 2016 to 31st Jan 2017 that's simply 365 days notice agreed by both parties.

    I'm open to, and obliged for, correction on the basis of the RTA dealing with fixed term leases.

    I am certain that Land Lords have to give notice at the end of a fixed term lease. I am unsuextremely if tenants do however from the point of view of equity you would assume that they have to.


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    #12
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    I am certain that Land Lords have to give notice at the end of a fixed term lease. I am unsuextremely if tenants do however from the point of view of equity you would assume that they have to.

    But a LL can't terminate at the end of a fixed term, otherwise I'd completely agree other than you may have had more beers than me with 'unsuextremely'. :pac:

    The only way a fixed term can work is if both parties are saying, look it's for X length, happy with that? Granted the tenant has the option of saying after six months, actually no I'm staying for 3.5 (now 5.5) years potentially thanks.


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    #13
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    There's a presumption that the landlord would expect them to leave at the end of the lease in the situation where the tenant fails to inform the landlord they're staying on and has to pay any costs the landlord incurred while unnecessarily advertising etc. This makes me think the default position is they don't need to give notice if leaving when the lease is up.


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    #14
    Clampdown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭Clampdown


    Libertarian Kant wrote: »
    If the LL has chosen to give the tenant a fixed term lease I'd argue he's give the tenant notice at the commencement of the lease. For example if the lease is to run from the 31st Jan 2016 to 31st Jan 2017 that's simply 365 days notice agreed by both parties.

    I'm open to, and obliged for, correction on the basis of the RTA dealing with fixed term leases.

    You could argue that, but you're wrong. There are required notice periods for both parties even when the lease is up, LL or tenant has a notice period. Usually stated in the lease. If not, it's a pretty bad lease.


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    #15
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Clampdown wrote: »
    You could argue that, but you're wrong. There are required notice periods for both parties even when the lease is up, LL or tenant has a notice period. Usually stated in the lease. If not, it's a pretty bad lease.

    Agreed on the bad lease front but where should a tenant pull notice periods from if it is a bad lease?

    If the LL was choosing to rely on RTA periods, why come up with the fixed term lease in the first place?


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    #16
    Clampdown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭Clampdown


    Libertarian Kant wrote: »
    Agreed on the bad lease front but where should a tenant pull notice periods from if it is a bad lease?

    If the LL was choosing to rely on RTA periods, why come up with the fixed term lease in the first place?

    Well there are other reasons for a fixed term lease, and it's just considered the done thing because in theory it's meant to provide stability for LL and tenant even if certain laws supersede or make it irrelevant at times.

    But to say that when you are signing a lease day 1 you are also receiving notice to quit simultaneously in 365? It's an interesting theory, but it just doesn't wash and would never be viewed as such by the RTB. Bit of a stretch.


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    #17
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Clampdown wrote: »
    Well there are other reasons for a fixed term lease, and it's just considered the done thing because in theory it's meant to provide stability for LL and tenant even if certain laws supersede or make it irrelevant at times.

    But to say that when you are signing a lease day 1 you are also receiving notice to quit simultaneously in 365? It's an interesting theory, but it just doesn't wash and would never be viewed as such by the RTB. Bit of a stretch.

    Fair comment.

    However I think one would be on shaky ground with the RTB insisting on the RTA notice periods, especially during mediation.


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    #18
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,960 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Forget the legals if you possibly can. Lawyers are the only winners if you play that game.

    How hard will it be to get replacement tenants, paying a higher rate? If easy, then don't be an a**, just let them go.


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    #19
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Libertarian Kant wrote: »
    If the LL has chosen to give the tenant a fixed term lease I'd argue he's give the tenant notice at the commencement of the lease. For example if the lease is to run from the 31st Jan 2016 to 31st Jan 2017 that's simply 365 days notice agreed by both parties.

    I'm open to, and obliged for, correction on the basis of the RTA dealing with fixed term leases.

    The tenancy becomes a part IV after 6 months. The Act prescribes the sole method of terminating a part 4 or indeed any tenancy. A Notice of Termination must be served. A Notice of Termination cannot be inferred as it must be in writing, signed by the landlord or agent, be for a specified reason etc.


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    #20
    Second Toughest in_the Freshers
    Site Banned Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Second Toughest in_the Freshers


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »

    How hard will it be to get replacement tenants, paying a higher rate?...
    Or, god forbid, the same rate...


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    #21
    Micmonoc
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭Micmonoc


    Thanks for all your replies... I guess it's all very much a grey area. We started on a fixed term lease on the advice of our letting agent.

    Just to clarify, I'm not trying to be an ass in the slightest. But we are flat broke and have to pay our own mortgage & rent so I'm just pretty annoyed we didn't get a bit more notice to get new tenants in. It shouldn't take long but we're still looking at a loss here that I'm not sure how we'll cover. I'll get the place put up on daft as soon as possible and hopefully we can get someone in the next few weeks...


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    #22
    Micmonoc
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭Micmonoc


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Forget the legals if you possibly can. Lawyers are the only winners if you play that game.

    How hard will it be to get replacement tenants, paying a higher rate? If easy, then don't be an a**, just let them go.

    Not being an ass thanks very much.


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    #23
    Micmonoc
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭Micmonoc


    Cherrycola wrote: »
    As a tenant in a similar position, as far as I'm aware of it's a fixed term lease then the tenant does not have to give you any notice that they are leaving at the end of that fixed term, as by its very nature the 'fixed term' is up.
    At least I hope that's the case as I'm hoping to find a new place in the next 4 weeks before my fixes lease is up!
    If I had to give 6weeks notice before I could leave my current place, and probably start a new lease in the meantime to hold the new place, it means paying rent in two places for one month! No one has that kind of money to throw away.

    But as a landlord with a tenant who didn't give notice, I'm now in a situation having to cover my mortgage & rent for at least a month. So how is that fair?


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    #24
    Keepgrowing
    Registered Users Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭Keepgrowing


    Reality is the LL has to stick to the rules the tenants don't. Tenant not paying, contact PRTB they come down on tenants side. Tenant leaves without notice, keep deposit simple. It can't be one way traffic.


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    #25
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Cason Old-fashioned Nunnery wrote: »
    You can't just leave at the end of your lease, you must give the required notice which depends on how long you have been living there. If you are living there 1 year or more but less than two you have to give your LL 6 weeks notice.

    Not Correct. What the act says is that if the tenant intends remaining he must give notice. This implies that if he is leaving he does not give notice.
    The compensation provision means that the landlord must assume if not notice was given that the tenant is vacating.

    RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004
    195.—(1) In this section “relevant dwelling” means a dwelling, the subject of a tenancy that is for a fixed period of at least 6 months.

    (2) The tenant of a relevant dwelling, if he or she intends to remain (on whatever basis, if any, that is open to him or her to do so) in occupation of the dwelling after the expiry of the period of the tenancy concerned, shall notify the landlord of that intention.

    (3) That notification shall not be made to the landlord—

    (a) any later than 1 month before, nor

    (b) any sooner than 3 months before,

    the expiry of the period of that tenancy.

    (4) If a tenant fails to comply with subsection (2) and the landlord suffers loss or damage in consequence of that failure the landlord may make a complaint to the Board under Part 6 that he or she has suffered such loss or damage.


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    #26
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    What exactly does the lease say about notice?
    In essence- a lease is a civil contractual agreement between a landlord and a tenant. It can impose terms in addition to those specified in the Residential Tenancies Act (as amended)- along with clarifying set scenarios- it cannot however detract from the rights and obligations as specified in the Act.

    From a practical point of view- if the fixed term lease does not specify a specific notice mechanism- the terms of the RTA are applied.

    What have you spelt out in the lease? Its entirely possible you may have given them terms in excess, far in excess, of those spelt out in the Act. This is entirely allowable- you can give them better terms than the Act- you cannot however detract from the Act.


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    #27
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Not Correct. What the act says is that if the tenant intends remaining he must give notice. This implies that if he is leaving he does not give notice.
    The compensation provision means that the landlord must assume if not notice was given that the tenant is vacating.

    Section 37:

    Nothing in the preceding subsections affects the liability of the tenant for rent for the period that would have elapsed had a notice of termination giving the required period of notice been served by him or her.


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    #28
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Micmonoc wrote: »
    But as a landlord with a tenant who didn't give notice, I'm now in a situation having to cover my mortgage & rent for at least a month. So how is that fair?

    Why did you put a fixed term lease in place?

    I do appreciate naivety may be the answer, none of us are experts and we all get things wrong but as I've illustrated one can approach these things from different angles; that being I rented the place for 13 months, 13 months is over I'm off. It would have been nice if they'd have told you but at the same time why did you not approach them.

    As above I would suggest explaining Part IV rights to your next tenant and basing your agreement on that with the statutory notice periods in place. Further advice would be to build up a buffer of funds if at all possible, I have noting but sympathy for people stuck with a bad investment but if a tenant moving out with no notice flummoxes you what's going to happen if you have to do emergency repairs or a tenant doesn't pay the rent for a year?


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    #29
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Keepgrowing wrote: »
    Reality is the LL has to stick to the rules the tenants don't. Tenant not paying, contact PRTB they come down on tenants side. Tenant leaves without notice, keep deposit simple. It can't be one way traffic.

    Again the LL has to show the loss. We don't know where this apartment is. If it's in Dublin and left in a reasonable state it can be filled in a week with ease and about €50 of advertising on DAFT.

    What's the point is having to waste time interacting with the RTB over €200 or so? Especially when you're going to be flat in the wrong for retaining the entire deposit.


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    #30
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Micmonoc wrote: »
    Thanks for all your replies... I guess it's all very much a grey area. We started on a fixed term lease on the advice of our letting agent.

    Just to clarify, I'm not trying to be an ass in the slightest. But we are flat broke and have to pay our own mortgage & rent so I'm just pretty annoyed we didn't get a bit more notice to get new tenants in. It shouldn't take long but we're still looking at a loss here that I'm not sure how we'll cover. I'll get the place put up on daft as soon as possible and hopefully we can get someone in the next few weeks...

    I have total sympathy for you on this. If it was the other way round and you sent the tenant a text saying "I presume you're moving out this Sunday", you would have 100 posters on here calling you all sorts.

    Totally one-sided rules.

    Only consolation I can give you is that you may be able to get new tenants very quickly given the current market.


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    #31
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    pilly wrote: »
    I have total sympathy for you on this. If it was the other way round and you sent the tenant a text saying "I presume you're moving out this Sunday", you would have 100 posters on here calling you all sorts.

    Totally one-sided rules.

    Only consolation I can give you is that you may be able to get new tenants very quickly given the current market.

    But the LL can't do that as the tenant is on Part IV after six months. So again, and sorry to sound like a broken record here, why bother with a fixed term lease in the first place, especially as some of them don't seem to delimit the notice requirements.

    The only reason seems to be so letting agents can collect a fee each year.


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