National Hurling League 2017 Discussion

corny

Dublin second to every ball here.

Dyr

Lots of terrible ball in to the full forward line, dublin cant get loose ball to hand. Same old, same old

edit: just as a pointless long ball into dwyer coughs up a goal. I should post more often ha ha

corny

Bambi wrote: »

Lots of terrible ball in to the full forward line, dublin cant get loose ball to hand. Same old, same old

edit: just as a pointless long ball into dwyer coughs up a goal. I should post more often ha ha

Even when the ball is good its not sticking though. The only ball O'Dwyer has won has been the goal. Being cleaned out otherwise. Clare not making the most of their possession.

letowski

Does anybody know the criteria for which team finishes above another when they both finish on equal pool points?

So right now Cork, Waterford and Clare are all on 4 points, with KK on 3 an d Dublin on 2. If say Clare and Cork both finish 4th and 5th, who contests the relegation playoff? Does it come down to points difference or head to head? Can't find the info.

PTH2009

letowski wrote: »

Does anybody know the criteria for which team finishes above another when they both finish on equal pool points?

So right now Cork, Waterford and Clare are all on 4 points, with KK on 3 an d Dublin on 2. If say Clare and Cork both finish 4th and 5th, who contests the relegation playoff? Does it come down to points difference or head to head? Can't find the info.

If 2 teams finish on the same amount of match points it goes h2h

If 3 or more teams end up on the same match points than points difference decides finishing position

letowski

PTH2009 wrote: »

If 2 teams finish on the same amount of match points it goes h2h

If 3 or more teams end up on the same match points than points difference decides finishing position

Sound, it basically means that if Cork and Dublin lose, then the losers of the Clare v Waterford match play Dublin in the relegation. Cork are actually in a strong enough position having h2h over Clare and Waterford.

PTH2009

letowski wrote: »

Sound, it basically means that if Cork and Dublin lose, then the losers of the Clare v Waterford match play Dublin in the relegation. Cork are actually in a strong enough position having h2h over Clare and Waterford.

Yeah and it's the most likely scenario TBH. Ennis is a difficult place too win for travelling teams.

A draw in the Waterford vs Clare game coupled with a cork loss would suite both Waterford/Clare regardless of the Dublin/kilkenny result

Expect 1A too finish like this
1 Tipp (9)
2 Clare (6)
3 Kilkenny (5)
4 Cork (4)

5 Waterford (4)
6 Dublin (2)

QFs
Tipperary vs Kerry
Clare vs Limerick or Galway
Kilkenny vs Limerick or Galway
Cork vs Wexford

1A relagation
Waterford vs Dublin- Walsh Park

1B relagation
Offaly vs Laois

Realt Dearg Sec

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Absolutely,

Counties like Offaly, Laois and westmeath are fooling themselves if they think they can compete in both sports.

The hammerings will continue until they pick one sport and concentrate on it.

Offaly have more hurling all Irelands than Limerick or Waterford
just saying

You're some spoofer

PTH2009

If 1A becomes an 8 team division next year than there is going to be one strong hurling county left out who will be hammering the likes of Loais,Kerry,Offaly etc week in week out

Division 1A 2018
Cork
Clare
Dublin
Kilkenny
Waterford
Tipperary
Wexford
Galway or Limerick

They can't turn around and say 'oh the team that is relegated from 1A will be in division 1B/2 in 2018 and Wexford, Galway and Limerick will play in the 8 team 1A'. Wexford have really thrown a spanner in the works as everyone expected 1B to come down too Galway vs Limerick and Wexford would finish 3rd

Browney7

PTH2009 wrote: »

If 1A becomes an 8 team division next year than there is going to be one strong hurling county left out who will be hammering the likes of Loais,Kerry,Offaly etc week in week out

Division 1A 2018
Cork
Clare
Dublin
Kilkenny
Waterford
Tipperary
Wexford
Galway or Limerick

They can't turn around and say 'oh the team that is relegated from 1A will be in division 1B/2 in 2018 and Wexford, Galway and Limerick will play in the 8 team 1A'. Wexford have really thrown a spanner in the works as everyone expected 1B to come down too Galway vs Limerick and Wexford would finish 3rd

Facts are Limerick just haven't been consistently good enough over previous campaigns to get promoted and that's no one's fault but their own and i say this as a card carrying Limerick supporter. The only legitimate gripe we have is when we were promoted from old two and then they restructured the league making promotion worthless and our club teams going on runs to Patrick's day in recent years.

Just because laois have gone backwards aprés cheddar and Offaly have been bad doesn't mean it should be restructured to cater for Limerick and Galway. You could have Dublin, Limerick and Galway in the one division next year which might actually make the current league knock out structure make sense.

paul0103

Has anybody any link or any information on where all of this talk of restructuring is coming from? I've heard the Galway manager in an interview after their game against Kerry talk about it too.

Edit: Agree with the above by the way, it was always going to take a few years but next year looks like it will be two very competitive groups of 6 (if the structure stays of course!)

Bonniedog

paul0103 wrote: »

Has anybody any link or any information on where all of this talk of restructuring is coming from? I've heard the Galway manager in an interview after their game against Kerry talk about it too.

Edit: Agree with the above by the way, it was always going to take a few years but next year looks like it will be two very competitive groups of 6 (if the structure stays of course!)

Current set up is best they have had. But of course there will always be some who want to change it because of some petty reason..

With the 1/4 finals it is in reality a 12 team division one. Any team who gets relegated from either section can't really complain.

Kerry have the right attitude and are giving it a lash but if they can't survive then I doubt they be whinging about it. It is huge step up for any team coming from 2A and few manage to hang in. Kerry did last year. Antrim seem to have imploded altogether. I think the opposing tracectories of the two counties is a good recommendation for the current system. If you are serious about the game and put the effort in then you will be rewarded. If you don't then you are on the way out. Shouldn't matter what "tradition" you have.

Hurling should be, and is, a meritocracy, not some weird genetic Illuminati thing!

Dyr

Bonniedog wrote: »

rAntrim seem to have imploded altogether. I think the opposing tracectories of the two counties is a good recommendation for the current system. If you are serious about the game and put the effort in then you will be rewarded. If you don't then you are on the way out. Shouldn't matter what "tradition" you have.

Hurling should be, and is, a meritocracy, not some weird genetic Illuminati thing!

I think Antrim is what happens when a county winds up only looking inwardly and club rivalries become the be all and end all...although money seems to be a problem for them too.

Realt Dearg Sec

PTH2009 wrote: »

If 1A becomes an 8 team division next year than there is going to be one strong hurling county left out who will be hammering the likes of Loais,Kerry,Offaly etc week in week out

Division 1A 2018
Cork
Clare
Dublin
Kilkenny
Waterford
Tipperary
Wexford
Galway or Limerick

They can't turn around and say 'oh the team that is relegated from 1A will be in division 1B/2 in 2018 and Wexford, Galway and Limerick will play in the 8 team 1A'. Wexford have really thrown a spanner in the works as everyone expected 1B to come down too Galway vs Limerick and Wexford would finish 3rd

I for one would be really disappointed if they go back to an 8 team division. The 6 team set up has proven itself a success. Every match matters, there is more at stake and more to lose, teams in 1B have their chance to get up out of it and there's been very few teams can say that 1B was beneath them when they were there. Limerick haven't been hammering the likes of Offaly too consistently over the last few years that you could presume they'll continue to do so in a new format. On the other side those teams are guaranteed games against what many would consider top tier opposition each year. The biggest faults for me were the ludicrous playoff relegation/promotion match from 2A to 1B, which has been fixed, and the quarter final set up for 1A and 1B, which works pretty well in its own tin-pan way, it just doesn't make a lick of sense.

If they go back to the way it was, you can be absolutely guaranteed that the old contempt for the league from managers will come roaring back as well, and the intensity of a match like last Saturday, in March, will be a thing of the past too. There's few enough matches that matter in hurling without diluting one of the two major competitions so that nobody feels obliged to take it seriously.

danganabu

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

and the quarter final set up for 1A and 1B, which works pretty well in its own tin-pan way, it just doesn't make a lick of sense.

As you say it makes very little sense, personally I would have the top 2 in 1A straight into the semis with the 3rd and 4th playing 1 and 2 from 1B in two quarter finals, but fully agree that in general its fine the way it is and a return to an 8 team Division 1 would be a step backwards.

adrian522

danganabu wrote: »

As you say it makes very little sense, personally I would have the top 2 in 1A straight into the semis with the 3rd and 4th playing 1 and 2 from 1B in two quarter finals, but fully agree that in general its fine the way it is and a return to an 8 team Division 1 would be a step backwards.

But why should the teams that finished 7th and 8th be into a quarter final and the teams that finished 5th and 6th go out?

paul0103

adrian522 wrote: »

But why should the teams that finished 7th and 8th be into a quarter final and the teams that finished 5th and 6th go out?

Because you can't go telling the 'hurling people' of Limerick/Galway etc that they actually are playing in the second division!

danganabu

adrian522 wrote: »

But why should the teams that finished 7th and 8th be into a quarter final and the teams that finished 5th and 6th go out?

Fair point but I think it works and lessens the disadvantage of being in 1B, it was done as a compromise and as Realt says, makes little sense logically but actually works quite well.

Bonniedog

As others have said, current structure is best we've had. How many times have we seen a league game like that between Tipp and Cats the other night? Every game, other than our thrashing against Tipp which I would half excuse on basis of young fellas being thrown into the cauldron! has been good.


Can't remember who it was said it recently, but any changes to hurling structures should be limited to views and votes of serious hurling counties, which is basically top 12 and counties like Meath, Kildare, Mayo who are making an effort. A travesty that counties who treat the game with contempt get to decide how it is run.

OldMrBrennan83

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Hammer Archer

Wicklow are through to the final already . If Meath win their rescheduled match with Roscommon on Thursday, they'll join them in the final. Both teams will still have to play each other in the last group game.
Winner of the final will be promoted.

OldMrBrennan83

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Kerrydude1981

Patww79 wrote: »

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Ya,we played Carlow twice the time we won 2A,beat them in Tralee and a few weeks later beat them in the final in Thurles

OldMrBrennan83

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arctictree

Patww79 wrote: »

Cheers. Two days out then. Two losses but still two days out :P

In current form, Wicklow are the only 2B team that could put it up to Meath. Winning one of these games is possible.

Stevecw

Good that the finals in 2A & 2B are now proper promotion games.
Other years there was always a stupid play off for the Div 2A winner a week after winning a tough final against a rested 1B side.
The 2A team often would have injuries/suspensions built up after playing maybe 3 weeks in a row. The 1B side always had a least a week off, as if they needed another advantage after playing a higher pace game v quality level opposition all season.

Kerry somehow overcame it 2 years ago & delighted for them. Antrim/Carlow deserve to be in 1B next year, same as Wicklow/Meath to be in 2A.

arctictree

Stevecw wrote: »

Good that the finals in 2A & 2B are now proper promotion games.
Other years there was always a stupid play off for the Div 2A winner a week after winning a tough final against a rested 1B side.
The 2A team often would have injuries/suspensions built up after playing maybe 3 weeks in a row. The 1B side always had a least a week off, as if they needed another advantage after playing a higher pace game v quality level opposition all season.

Kerry somehow overcame it 2 years ago & delighted for them. Antrim/Carlow deserve to be in 1B next year, same as Wicklow/Meath to be in 2A.

I think the winners of the 2A final still have to play the losers of the 1B relegation tie.

OldMrBrennan83

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Kerrydude1981

arctictree wrote: »

I think the winners of the 2A final still have to play the losers of the 1B relegation tie.

They have got rid of that game between the 2A winners and the relegation play off losers,I think they have anyway

Hammer Archer

Patww79 wrote: »

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We always seem to screw promotion from 2B up. Both ourselves and Mayo have been in 2B since its inception.
Assuming we beat Roscommon on Thursday, we'll be in our 4th final in 6 years.

Hammer Archer

Looking at the table of 2B again, I think it's actually 100% guaranteed to be a Wicklow v Meath final regardless of whether Meath beat Roscommon.
Wicklow are obviously through. Down and Derry are 2 points behind Meath but they play each other in the last game meaning only one team can reach 6 points. As Meath have beaten both teams already, they will be above them on head-to-head even if Meath lose their last two games.

Can never understand the reasoning behind the final taking place at a neutral venue. The team that tops the division should be given home advantage. There is hardly any benefit in either Meath or Wicklow playing their first team in the final game as regardless of who wins, the final will be played in a neutral venue (probably Parnell Park or Newbridge).

arctictree

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

They have got rid of that game between the 2A winners and the relegation play off losers,I think they have anyway

According to wikipedia, its still there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_National_Hurling_League#Division_1B.2F2A_Relegation.2FPromotion_Playoff

OldMrBrennan83

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feargale

Why is Roscommon v. Meath at Ashbourne? Wasn't this supposed to be a home game for Roscommon? Just curious.

Bonniedog

That 1B table really jumps out at you when you see Offaly with no points at the bottom. They still have a chance to stay up as Wexford will almost certainly give Laois a bit of a trimming. Offaly v Kerry will be some game. Hopefully it is one of the games TG4 show that day.

Django99

Bonniedog wrote: »

That 1B table really jumps out at you when you see Offaly with no points at the bottom. They still have a chance to stay up as Wexford will almost certainly give Laois a bit of a trimming. Offaly v Kerry will be some game. Hopefully it is one of the games TG4 show that day.

Relegation will come down to scoring difference if Laois lose and Offaly win, Offaly currently have the best score difference so a win for them keepers them safe. Kerry have next best so even a narrow defeat should keep them up.

But Wexford are already promoted, and Laois have ran them close before. Davy might rest players or give some panel players a run, so Laois really need to target a win.

Bonniedog

Not sure Davy Fitz does resting! Perhaps. Laois were good against Offaly in fairness so might put up a bit of a show.

Kerry/Offaly is a must win game for both, so should be a real cracker. Kerry beat them by a point in Birr last year so most likely be fancied to win in Tralee. No harm to Offaly, but be nice to see the Kingdom in a quarter final.

dastardly00

Bonniedog wrote: »

That 1B table really jumps out at you when you see Offaly with no points at the bottom. They still have a chance to stay up as Wexford will almost certainly give Laois a bit of a trimming. Offaly v Kerry will be some game. Hopefully it is one of the games TG4 show that day.

EDIT: Django99 has already said what I say below:
By my reckoning, if Offaly beat Kerry and as expected Wexford beat Laois, then Offaly should finish in 4th place as they will have a better +/- points differential than both Kerry and Laois.

dastardly00

Based on the fixture list on GAA.ie, there is a relegation play-off to be played for 1B. Is that correct?

OldMrBrennan83

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Bonniedog

dastardly00 wrote: »

Based on the fixture list on GAA.ie, there is a relegation play-off to be played for 1B. Is that correct?

Not sure. You would imagine that in the midst of all their navel gazing over football that they'd have made it crystal clear what the structures are for hurling relegation. Obviously teams themselves know - you would hope! - but there is a lot of confusion among supporters regarding both 1A and 1B relegations.

Django99

Bonniedog wrote: »

Not sure. You would imagine that in the midst of all their navel gazing over football that they'd have made it crystal clear what the structures are for hurling relegation. Obviously teams themselves know - you would hope! - but there is a lot of confusion among supporters regarding both 1A and 1B relegations.

Is it a relegation play off between the bottom two teams in 1B, or is a between the bottom 1B team and the winner of 2A? As you say it's amazing that this isnt crystal clear. I would be surprised if the competing teams weren't 100% sure.

Bonniedog

If dastardly's link is correct then there is a play off between bottom two in 1B but not sure if there is one between loser of that and winner of 2A. Probably is as nothing else seems to have been changed. But you never know! Usually some bizarre surprise down the line!


There should not be of course. Hard enough to win promotion without having to play a team from the higher division to seal it. Totally against the spirit of any league or notion of fair play.

arctictree

Bonniedog wrote: »

There should not be of course. Hard enough to win promotion without having to play a team from the higher division to seal it. Totally against the spirit of any league or notion of fair play.

The other argument is that if you can't even beat the worst team in a division, then you don't deserve to be in it!

paul0103

Bonniedog wrote: »

If dastardly's link is correct then there is a play off between bottom two in 1B but not sure if there is one between loser of that and winner of 2A. Probably is as nothing else seems to have been changed. But you never know! Usually some bizarre surprise down the line!


There should not be of course. Hard enough to win promotion without having to play a team from the higher division to seal it. Totally against the spirit of any league or notion of fair play.

Pretty sure the promotion/relegation games between two divisions are gone. I think the winner of 2A/2B etc just go straight up to the higher division next year.

Hammer Archer

feargale wrote: »

Why is Roscommon v. Meath at Ashbourne? Wasn't this supposed to be a home game for Roscommon? Just curious.

It was originally meant to be in Athleague. I'm not entirely sure why it's in Ashbourne but I read on the Meath thread that Roscommon requested that it be in Meath. Not sure how true that is.

Patww79 wrote: »

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Yeah that's it. Donaghmore/Ashbourne's ground.

feargale

arctictree wrote: »

The other argument is that if you can't even beat the worst team in a division, then you don't deserve to be in it!

Why not apply the same principle to the higher divisions, then?

OldMrBrennan83

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PTH2009

If Cork and Dublin can perform for 70 mins they are going to be troublesome, they have some good players

There so many teams that can beat each other on any given day ,the glory days of hurling could be returning

Kerrydude1981

Allianz Hurling League permutations

http://www.gaa.ie/hurling/news/allianz-hurling-league-permutations/