Anyone else becoming terrified of Liberals.

Tony EH

DrumSteve wrote: »

Makes me a bit sad they way the word liberal has been hijacked by american politics.

Whats actually wrong with being liberal in its truest sense?

Absolutely nothing. Being liberal minded is essentially being open minded to new ideas and tolerant for views that differ to one's own. Where one draws their line is up to them. Usually, you'll find that that stops at racism, bigotry and extremist viewpoints.

Being liberal is good.

However, the American version is a very strange, bastardised take on the position and most of the single issue shouters that are called "liberals" (usually as a slur by those on the right) are nothing of the sort. They're not even left wingers TBH.

I always find it strange, though, that "liberal" is a word used to mock by the American right. Like being open minded is a bad thing. :pac:

Tony EH

Brian? wrote: »

You know what makes it more confusing? Calling left wing people liberals.

But one can hold left wing views and be "liberal". It's generally been the left that have fought for liberal views and tolerance towards those that the right have generally view as a threat, be it homosexuals, foreigners or even women.

It wasn't the right wing that had traditionally stood up for the rights of the above examples. It was the left.

So from that perspective, the left can hold liberal views, if one is to class "liberal" as open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.

alastair

Tony EH wrote: »

Absolutely nothing. Being liberal minded is essentially being open minded to new ideas and tolerant for views that differ to one's own. Where one draws their line is up to them. Usually, you'll find that that stops at racism, bigotry and extremist viewpoints.

Being liberal is good.

However, the American version is a very strange, bastardised take on the position and most of the single issue shouters that are called "liberals" (usually as a slur by those on the right) are nothing of the sort. They're not even left wingers TBH.

I always find it strange, though, that "liberal" is a word used to mock by the American right. Like being open minded is a bad thing. :pac:

Tony EH wrote: »

But one can hold left wing views and be "liberal". It's generally been the left that have fought for liberal views and tolerance towards those that the right have generally view as a threat, be it homosexuals, foreigners or even women.

It wasn't the right wing that had traditionally stood up for the rights of the above examples. It was the left.

So from that perspective, the left can hold liberal views, if one is to class "liberal" as open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.

The notion that liberalism (as opposed to economic liberalism) is some sort of American invention is pretty blinkered in any case. Corporatist liberals - with progressive social policy and comprehensive welfare and social provision models, were the template for the social democratic system in Scandinavia - from the start of the 20th century. So left-leaning progressive politics, under the moniker of 'Liberals' didn't spring out of the US counter-culture.

The success of progressive politics in the US, irrespective of whoever sits in the Whitehouse or Capitol, is the big picture story of the last fifty years there.

listermint

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

Sure look at the main Trump thread, I got labeled a racist because I have conservative views and I don't buy into the liberal media mania.

You made that up no one called you racist . Stop playing a victim card , you've been responded to there . No need to drag victim into other threads especially when there is no truth to the claim.

This is the hilarious part of this thread.you are all straight out of the playbook. When you have zero ammo to defend trump's decisions you attack and attack and attack the opposition. If you spent half the time taking on the points of his EOs properly rather than crying about liberals then we could actually see the quality of the pro trump argument.

So far it has been scant much the same as his staff who fire fight his issues daily.


Makes for quality TV though always another good jaysus around the corner.


Brilliant

ancapailldorcha

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

Sure look at the main Trump thread, I got labeled a racist because I have conservative views and I don't buy into the liberal media mania.

Did you? Seriously? I'd like some proof please because that would interest me as a mod.

Jan_de_Bakker

red ears wrote: »

There is definitely something happening. In my lifetime i have never seen the likes of what is going on in US campuses with riots breaking out when someone comes to give a talk. The anger is palpable. In one video a blonde girl gets hit over the head with a pole. She didn't seem to be doing anything to warrant it. Hollywood directors and actors calling for violence and the whole room cheering and whooping as if its totally acceptable.

As Sargon of Akkad says, back in ancient Rome actors were basically at the same level as prostitutes or street entertainers .... would be great if people today took them as seriously, the day when CGI is so good we don't need that shower can't come quick enough.

Brian?

Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »

As Sargon of Akkad says, back in ancient Rome actors were basically at the same level as prostitutes or street entertainers .... would be great if people today took them as seriously, the day when CGI is so good we don't need that shower can't come quick enough.

What have you got against prostitutes and street entertainers?

Actors have every right to express their political views, just like anyone. Why does that annoy you so much? Is it because your side gets lesser known Baldwins?

WinnyThePoo

Brian? wrote: »

What have you got against prostitutes and street entertainers?

Actors have every right to express their political views, just like anyone. Why does that annoy you so much? Is it because your side gets lesser known Baldwins?

I've noticed trump supporters really don't like actors having an opinion.

They really get angry about it.

AnGaelach

Brian? wrote: »

Actors have every right to express their political views, just like anyone. Why does that annoy you so much?

What annoys me, personally, isn't them expressing their views. It's people using them as some kind of authority on something, that since they're famous they're inherently more knowledgeable about something.

Whenever I see people post that Australian comedian talking about guns (which he admitted to making up stats for) as some kind of trump card "gotcha" moment, a little part of me dies inside.

listermint

AnGaelach wrote: »

What annoys me, personally, isn't them expressing their views. It's people using them as some kind of authority on something, that since they're famous they're inherently more knowledgeable about something.

Whenever I see people post that Australian comedian talking about guns (which he admitted to making up stats for) as some kind of trump card "gotcha" moment, a little part of me dies inside.

Who uses then as an authority?

Specifically

AnGaelach

listermint wrote: »

Who uses then as an authority?

Specifically

A great many people. Do you want me to start trolling through Facebook comments on videos to find proof?

Clinton used them to try and woo people into voting for her. Liam Cunningham was on Claire Byrne debating about refugees for christ sake. The man's experience consists of visiting camps and being on The Guard and Game of Thrones.

listermint

AnGaelach wrote: »

A great many people. Do you want me to start trolling through Facebook comments on videos to find proof?

Clinton used them to try and woo people into voting for her. Liam Cunningham was on Claire Byrne debating about refugees for christ sake. The man's experience consists of visiting camps and being on The Guard and Game of Thrones.

Wait.. Facebook comments are holding actors in high regard.

Ok

I'm out

AnGaelach

listermint wrote: »

Wait.. Facebook comments are holding actors in high regard.

Ok

I'm out

Do you think people who post on Facebook aren't allowed to vote or something? Do you think I'm asserting that academic papers are quoting actors? Did you think I was saying Government policy is formed on the basis of radio presenters opinions?

listermint

AnGaelach wrote: »

Do you think people who post on Facebook aren't allowed to vote or something? Do you think I'm asserting that academic papers are quoting actors? Did you think I was saying Government policy is formed on the basis of radio presenters opinions?

Facebook is a hilarious item for you to put your assertion across it's basically zero evidence and musings of real or fake people on the internet.

Professor Moriarty

listermint wrote: »

Facebook is a hilarious item for you to put your assertion across it's basically zero evidence and musings of real or fake people on the internet.

Fakebook is the new Encyclopedia Britannica.

sid waddell

AnGaelach wrote: »

What annoys me, personally, isn't them expressing their views. It's people using them as some kind of authority on something, that since they're famous they're inherently more knowledgeable about something.

Funny how Trump supporters don't seem to realise the irony of them shouting about actors having no right to a view on politics, given that they were more than happy to support a reality TV star with no prior experience in politics, and proclaiming loudly that that lack of experience was a great thing.

I rather think the irony is lost on them!

But then many ironies are lost on Trump supporters.

One wonders where "Democrat-loving Hollywood luvvies with no knowledge of politics", like, say, Arnold Schwarzenegger, stand in the minds of Trump supporters in terms of having a right to an opinion.

AnGaelach

listermint wrote: »

Facebook is a hilarious item for you to put your assertion across it's basically zero evidence and musings of real or fake people on the internet.

What other assertion do you want? Do you want me to tell you about discussions I've had in real life (which you'd say is anecdotal), or look for people on Twitter or blog posts? Again, we're not discussing academic literature here so you can cut the smugness out.

ancapailldorcha

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Fakebook is the new Encyclopedia Britannica.

Post more constructively and ditch the petty name calling please.

Jan_de_Bakker

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

I've noticed trump supporters really don't like actors having an opinion.

They really get angry about it.

Who's the Trump supporter ?

Anyway, point is when actors are inciting violence - it's an issue

KingBrian2

I love the bash the Trump supporter as though you can wrap Trumpites into a nice little package. People voted for Trump for a lot of simple reasons. Gvt was performing dreadfully and they were looking for effective Gvt in this time of recession & international terrorism. Constantly referencing the Trump people as neo fascists.

listermint

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I love the bash the Trump supporter as though you can wrap Trumpites into a nice little package. People voted for Trump for a lot of simple reasons. Gvt was performing dreadfully and they were looking for effective Gvt in this time of recession & international terrorism. Constantly referencing the Trump people as neo fascists.

Looking for effective government when there hasn't been a terrorist attack in years especially a foreign grown one oh and handing governance to a reality show host....


I mean if effective governance is the hook anyone wants to put their coat on....

listermint

Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »

Who's the Trump supporter ?

Anyway, point is when actors are inciting violence - it's an issue

Is this an NWA thing ?

KingBrian2

listermint wrote: »

Looking for effective government when there hasn't been a terrorist attack in years especially a foreign grown one oh and handing governance to a reality show host....


I mean if effective governance is the hook anyone wants to put their coat on....

What are you talking about Americans are still reeling from last years twin terrorist attacks and we have plenty of Americans still without a job or able to earn an income.

listermint

KingBrian2 wrote: »

What are you talking about Americans are still reeling from last years twin terrorist attacks and we have plenty of Americans still without a job or able to earn an income.

What Americans reeling from exactly. I mean I travel to and from for business and have offices all over the US. But I'm interested in this reeling please elaborate.

What's the unemployment rate again ?Less then Ireland's you say?

Get any of this off Facebook?Perhaps

Professor Moriarty

Steve. Bannon. Unelected. Ultra Right.

KingBrian2

listermint wrote: »

What Americans reeling from exactly. I mean I travel to and from for business and have offices all over the US. But I'm interested in this reeling please elaborate.

What's the unemployment rate again ?Less then Ireland's you say?

Get any of this off Facebook?Perhaps

Unemployment rate is low however the statisticians dispute the true employment figure. Also crucially some areas of the country are starved of cash. Investment poor causing huge problems for the future. The economic troubles of America are very bad.

KingBrian2

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Steve. Bannon. Unelected. Ultra Right.

A political appointee. Obama picked Bush type appointees when he was in office.

Professor Moriarty

KingBrian2 wrote:

Unemployment rate is low however the statisticians dispute the true employment figure. Also crucially some areas of the country are starved of cash. Investment poor causing huge problems for the future. The economic troubles of America are very bad.

Trump claimed it was 42%. Anyway, in America, Joe Bloggs's biggest threat is automation.

listermint

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Unemployment rate is low however the statisticians dispute the true employment figure. Also crucially some areas of the country are starved of cash. Investment poor causing huge problems for the future. The economic troubles of America are very bad.

Really? Like em everywhere else.. people have to migrate to more populous areas look at Ireland.

You haven't addressed my terrorist question which was the butt of your response.

What are people 'reeling' from.

And what statisticians? Trump has hounded the figures for 2 years and only this week claiming the figures as his own despite them being the same


Interesting... Can you give your thoughts on both points

Professor Moriarty

KingBrian2 wrote:

A political appointee. Obama picked Bush type appointees when he was in office.

Anyone as controversial or influential as Bannon?

KingBrian2

listermint wrote: »

Really? Like em everywhere else.. people have to migrate to more populous areas look at Ireland.

You haven't addressed my terrorist question which was the butt of your response.

What are people 'reeling' from.

And what statisticians? Trump has hounded the figures for 2 years and only this week claiming the figures as his own despite them being the same


Interesting... Can you give your thoughts on both points

https://qz.com/666311/why-americas-impressive-5-unemployment-rate-still-feels-like-a-lie/

You add to that the spread of anti Muslim sentiment in the media and you get this environment of hate all perfectly predictability with so badly paid
jobs.

listermint

KingBrian2 wrote: »

https://qz.com/666311/why-americas-impressive-5-unemployment-rate-still-feels-like-a-lie/

You add to that the spread of anti Muslim sentiment in the media and you get this environment of hate all perfectly predictability with so badly paid
jobs.

Brian,

First answer the question about reeling from terrorism which you have avoided twice despite you bringing it up.


Secondly the attack on minimum wage came from the same individuals funding trump.the same individuals funding his attack on Dodd Frank . Wall Street. You think big business wants to pay minimum wage .


This is the conundrum which you fail to comprehend when the unfathomable support for trump.

Please answer both questions as they have been posed.

KingBrian2

listermint wrote: »

Brian,

First answer the question about reeling from terrorism which you have avoided twice despite you bringing it up.


Secondly the attack on minimum wage came from the same individuals funding trump.the same individuals funding his attack on Dodd Frank . Wall Street. You think big business wants to pay minimum wage .


This is the conundrum which you fail to comprehend when the unfathomable support for trump.

Please answer both questions as they have been posed.

I have already answered these questions Americans are fed up with the acts of terrorism that have taken place in America claimed by ISIS as reported by the mainstream media. Not some tabloid publication. Multiple incidents of Islamic terrorism taking place in America and as usual the American working classes who have very little income suffer the most.

Professor Moriarty

KingBrian2 wrote: »

https://qz.com/666311/why-americas-impressive-5-unemployment-rate-still-feels-like-a-lie/

You add to that the spread of anti Muslim sentiment in the media and you get this environment of hate all perfectly predictability with so badly paid
jobs.

Interesting you quote an article by Sarah Kendzior. Here's more of her articles. To say that she doesn't like Trump or his cronies would be a gross understatement - she describes Trump's America as a "sh1tshow'.

KingBrian2

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Interesting you quote an article by Sarah Kendzior. Here's more of her articles. To say that she doesn't like Trump or his cronies would be a gross understatement.

It does not matter as she stated long time before Trump got elected that the economic picture was not rosy. Democrats deviated from their mission and suffered at the voting booth. You can't treat your electorate like that.

Professor Moriarty

KingBrian2 wrote: »

It does not matter as she stated long time before Trump got elected that the economic picture was not rosy. Democrats deviated from their mission and suffered at the voting booth. You can't treat your electorate like that.

Indeed. But seeing as you see her as an authoritative source, have a read of her articles on Trump's "sh1tshow".

Suryavarman

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I don't think you can tell somebody they don't understand liberalism and then try to back up your argument by referring to a bunch of liberal thinkers that are dead over 150 years.

A lot has changed since Adam Smith wrote Wealth of Nations, America abolished slavery, Karl Marx wrote Das Kapital and even since Keynes wrote the General Theory. Since then science and political philosophy have advanced a great deal and the terms we use when discussing those matters have evolved. Terms we use now don't mean what they used to mean 150 years ago.

Your ability to talk about classical liberals from the 19th century or referring to Keynes as if he was still relevant are impressive but they also give the impression that you're stuck in the past and not really in the position to give any great insight into modern issues.

listermint

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I have already answered these questions Americans are fed up with the acts of terrorism that have taken place in America claimed by ISIS as reported by the mainstream media. Not some tabloid publication. Multiple incidents of Islamic terrorism taking place in America and as usual the American working classes who have very little income suffer the most.

No Brian you have not answered.

You said Americans are reeling from 2 acts of terrorism last year. Please detail these 2 acts or terrorism they are reeling from.

Or where you not counting on someone frequenting the us and speaking with colleagues on a daily basis asking questions about your so called facts.

Details please brian

KingBrian2

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Indeed. But seeing as you see her as an authoritative source, have a read of her articles on Trump's "sh1tshow".

I share some the frustrations about Trump but really the Democrats are really divided and Trump would need to have an opposition that can reign him in. He feels powerful, do no wrong answerable to nobody. Take the whole Bannon appointee a forceful Congress could remove him from that position. I see what is going on in Congress or rather silence as acceptance. The public are not as concerned about Bannon being there as the mainstream media are and why would they virtually everyone in the mainstream media bar Fox News is a liberal and Bannon is as conservative as they come. They are going to target him to beat the band. All those horrible words used to describe him.

listermint

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I share some the frustrations about Trump but really the Democrats are really divided and Trump would need to have an opposition that can reign him in. He feels powerful, do no wrong answerable to nobody. Take the whole Bannon appointee a forceful Congress could remove him from that position. I see what is going on in Congress or rather silence as acceptance. The public are not as concerned about Bannon being there as the mainstream media are and why would they virtually everyone in the mainstream media bar Fox News is a liberal and Bannon is as conservative as they come. They are going to target him to beat the band. All those horrible words used to describe him.

So bannon is okay then.

Have you considered most of the voters who put trump in have never heard of him.

But they soon will.

When the media start to target him as being the core power trump won't like that I expect their relationship to be short lived .Trump doesn't share spotlight well.

KingBrian2

listermint wrote: »

No Brian you have not answered.

You said Americans are reeling from 2 acts of terrorism last year. Please detail these 2 acts or terrorism they are reeling from.

Or where you not counting on someone frequenting the us and speaking with colleagues on a daily basis asking questions about your so called facts.

Details please brian

The Orlando attack. An Afghan claimed allegiance to ISIS killed innocent people on a night out.

The attack in Ohio also took place linked to ISIS so Americans have faced terrorism first hand.

I am not making false or misleading statements about these attacks. Google the attacks and you will see the details.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Professor Moriarty

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I share some the frustrations about Trump but really the Democrats are really divided and Trump would need to have an opposition that can reign him in. He feels powerful, do no wrong answerable to nobody. Take the whole Bannon appointee a forceful Congress could remove him from that position. I see what is going on in Congress or rather silence as acceptance. The public are not as concerned about Bannon being there as the mainstream media are and why would they virtually everyone in the mainstream media bar Fox News is a liberal and Bannon is as conservative as they come. They are going to target him to beat the band. All those horrible words used to describe him.

Yes, bar McCain and a few others. the real culprits are the Republicans who are busily looking the other way. Unprincipled cowards.

listermint

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The Orlando attack. An Afghan claimed allegiance to ISIS killed innocent people on a night out.

The attack in Ohio also took place linked to ISIS so Americans have faced terrorism first hand.

I am not making false or misleading statements about these attacks. Google the attacks and you will see the details.

You are making false and misleading statements for what end?I think we all know.

No America is not reeling from a nightclub shooting or something in Ohio.

Why because I've been in Ohio frequently there is no reeling just normal life.

Incredibly enough neither of these things really impact most life's over there i guess you know that already unless getting your queues from Facebook from people who don't live there.

listermint

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Yes, bar McCain and a few others. the real culprits are the Republicans who are busily looking the other way. Unprincipled cowards.

Spot on.

I envisage this changing fairly soon it will start with a trickle then a flood.

sid waddell

Suryavarman wrote: »

I don't think you can tell somebody they don't understand liberalism and then try to back up your argument by referring to a bunch of liberal thinkers that are dead over 150 years.

A lot has changed since Adam Smith wrote Wealth of Nations, America abolished slavery, Karl Marx wrote Das Kapital and even since Keynes wrote the General Theory. Since then science and political philosophy have advanced a great deal and the terms we use when discussing those matters have evolved. Terms we use now don't mean what they used to mean 150 years ago.

Your ability to talk about classical liberals from the 19th century or referring to Keynes as if he was still relevant are impressive but they also give the impression that you're stuck in the past and not really in the position to give any great insight into modern issues.

Republicans talking about how they were the party that abolished slavery in the civil war is another example of referencing something that really isn't relevant to today at all, given that they adopted the racist Southern Strategy in the 60s and are the party that actively seeks to deny ethnic minorities the vote today. Many of them are also stuck in a late 19th/early 20th century mindset as regards the rights of minorities in general.

Professor Moriarty

listermint wrote: »

Spot on.

I envisage this changing fairly soon it will start with a trickle then a flood.

Yes, once Trump's value as a useful idiot has waned they'll find their principles again.

ancapailldorcha

Guys, take the Trump talk to a more relevant thread please. Some of it falls within the remit of this thread but at the moment, it's verging on becoming yet another thread about The Donald.

KingBrian2

listermint wrote: »

You are making false and misleading statements for what end?I think we all know.

No America is not reeling from a nightclub shooting or something in Ohio.

Why because I've been in Ohio frequently there is no reeling just normal life.

Incredibly enough neither of these things really impact most life's over there i guess you know that already unless getting your queues from Facebook from people who don't live there.

As usual being disingenuous when i stated America was attacked by Islamic terrorists and you don't want to know about it. Making off the cusp remarks about somehow receiving ques from Facebook.

The media did very well out of the Islamic terrorism with regards ratings and paper sales fostering a climate of fear and suspicious precisely like what happened in an early period in history.

Oh and about Ohio, Must not have met these voters. http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/ohio

Middle Man

Bebopclown wrote: »

This fear has been building in me for awhile but seeing all these violent protests recently has heightened my fears. It seems that if you are in any way different, if you like something that's a little abnormal (like 18 certed horror films) these liberals want you dead! They will scream, shout and threaten you until you conform and be like them. Right now, it seems that if you are different, maybe a little bit odd, it's now time to lock yourself up and never step outside. I don't like posting online anymore due to fear of liberal attacks and labelling.
My therapist says I need to get out more, talk to people and let them get to know the real me but I'm scared the real me will get me killed at the hands of these liberals. My therapist says my oddness makes me unique but I think it makes me a target of liberal hate. It feels like I need to conform, I need to become something else because being me is a horrible thing. I need to stay so deep in the closet because if I come out then that will be another thing that makes me different.

I think you're right to a point - in any case, are these 'liberals' actually liberal when one dares not to question their viewpoints? In fact, I'd also question if they're actually left wing (as in being inclusive of all and conscious of the vulnerable). I would agree that there are a crowd of 'yahoos' who have been dictating the pace in recent decades - radical man hating feminists (inclusive?:rolleyes:), eco alarmists solely concerned with Co2 emissions (there are other environmental issues too:cool:), pro choice movement supporting free for all abortion (are the unborn not vulnerable human beings?), car hating cyclists (many of whom exercise no consideration of others:rolleyes:). If you think you're alone and the odd one out, you're not - there will always be people who express views contrary to mainstream doctrine - The Wall - Part 2 comes to mind as the lyrics suggest ...no dark sarcasm in the classroom... Current 'liberalists' are no different to old school arrogant teachers who think they know it all and try to ridicule anyone who dares to think differently. Well, welcome to the club - I think quite differently in fact!

For example, I'm...

1) Pro equality but strongly oppose man hating feminism;
2) Very conscious of our environment, but would question current Co2 doctrine;
3) Not religious, but recognise the right to life for all innocent people including those before birth;
4) Pro rail, road and pedestrian - however, I believe in responsible motoring but don't think cycling is the right day to day transport mode for Ireland;
5) Pro enterprise, but anti liberal and vulture capitalism - I'm also against private land ownership but very pro infrastructure and would support some high rise development in our cities;
6) Anti fashion - I totally oppose a one size fits all approach to personal style - In fact, I as a man wear loose clothes - do I really care what GQ and their ilk think - I also have seen women making comments on me in public - well, it's none of their business!

Whether you agree with all the above or not, the main point I'm making here is: Am I afraid to make my views known here?

In any case, things are changing and are changing very fast - with the new political environment amid the advanced decay of our social structures, we are now in very uncharted territory and those so called liberals have made quite a fine mess of this world though their behaviour - amid the collapse of social decency, they should be ashamed of themselves! I for one would never have voted for either Hilary Clinton or Donald Trump if I was a US Citizen. Regarding Hilary Clinton, would I want more of the so called liberal agenda as this world becomes more and more like the Hunger Games - I think most know how the storey line in that film went!

What those 'liberals' need to realise is that through their bigotry, they are creating so much frustration among those that beg to differ that outrage is being reflected in our increasingly unstable political system. Brexit, Trump, Le Pen etc - these said issues concern nations armed with nuclear weapons and with a resurgent Russia and emerging China added to the mix, I guess many of ye get the picture. We as a society need to stop behaving like spoiled children and start taking responsibility and showing compassion for each other. We are only entitled to as many rights as we can have as long as they don't impinge upon the rights of others. We also need to cut this 'I"m alright Jack' head in the sand nonsense as well as 'there by the grace of God goes I'. Either we change our ways or we could be in big trouble in the not too distant future - also, we need to consider our children's future and in turn, the future of their children.

We as a society like to boast our liberal values - let us practice what we preach!