Craniosacral Therapy?

laserlad2010

xzanti wrote: »

I'm glad you're not my Doctor with that attitude towards your patients.

Since when is waterbirth "spouted nonsense"?

Don't they have waterbirth suites in the Hospitals?

Also, comparing cranial osteopathy to refusing vaccines??? Really??

Water births... Really? What "natural" process is being replicated there?! It's another attempt to avoid having a reasonable discussion around the real risks of childbirth by fooling women into believing they're "in control" and can avoid any disasters by simply squatting in a warm bath for a few hours.

I have an excellent attitude to parents who come to me with concerns about mainstream health. I listen to them, show them the evidence and ultimately tell them that they are the ones to make the decision. Most parents eventually give me the same respect that they gave the quack Facebook post they read in a parenting group somewhere, and end up taking my advice.

mordeith wrote: »

I'm sure all the symphysiotomy women are delighted they followed the mainstream advice from their doctors.
Lumping non vaccinations in with water birthing is ridiculous.

I think that the official symphisiotomy report found that a considerable amount of claims were simply unsubstantiated. I'm not demanding blind obedience. I'm simply asking you why you feel doctors should be ignored over someone with absolutely zero evidence behind their actions?

I'll lump those issues together because in my and my colleagues experience its a spectrum of quackery. Once you allow some "expert" to gently rub your childs belly in a treatment of colic, you're only a short skip to obsessing over mercury in vaccines.

xzanti

seamus wrote: »

Of course, any Tom, Dick or Harry can claim to be an osteopath and can claim to have been one for 20 years if they like, and can put 100 fake customer references on their website, nobody can stop them.

Aside from the unproven nature of what they do, reputation, qualifications and experience are meaningless. You will hear people swear blind by specific homeopaths, that others are rubbish.

Where there is no proven methodology or science behind it, a practitioner's reputation is meaningless; there is no objective measure by which you can say Tom is better than Dick. Someone being a "good" practitioner is 80% personality and 20% blind luck.

It was the only thing that worked for my Son. I stand over my recommendation and I will continue to recommend this particular clinic to anyone who asks for details.

I have not been to any other practitioner and I cannot speak for them.

Laserboy, my Son has had all his vaccines, every single one. If anyone is throwing vaccines into the spotlight on this thread, it's you. Nobody else mentioned the issue.

Also, you and your esteemed colleagues were not much help to us when my baby was a rigid ball of pain and we were at our wits end. Other than to recommend colic drops, which frankly did sweet FA to help him.

If anyone wants the details of the Dublin clinic, pm me. I will happily assist.

pwurple

It could have been many things. it's 5 weeks, around the time when colic goes away on it's own too. It's also likely stressed parents suddenly chilled out and baby picked that up.

And btw, the dentist... Dentists add on all sorts to top up the income. I've seen some offer homeopathy, botox, chiropractic, massage, you name it... i can set up as a craniosacral adjuster tomorrow, paint the word "Clinic" on my house and tada.

If you know any radiologists, have a word with them about craniosacral. They are the people who go through the scans and see the damage done later. There's a whole range beyond death.

And EVEN if it did work, even in the remote possibility that it did something, would you not want a scan, an xray, something, anything to verify that it was needed... and another scan afterwords to show that it had worked and had not accidentally shoved something into the brain which won't show up for ten years?

xzanti

pwurple wrote: »

It could have been many things. it's 5 weeks, around the time when colic goes away on it's own too. It's also likely stressed parents suddenly chilled out and baby picked that up.

And btw, the dentist... Dentists add on all sorts to top up the income. I've seen some offer homeopathy, botox, chiropractic, massage, you name it... i can set up as a craniosacral adjuster tomorrow, paint the word "Clinic" on my house and tada.

If you know any radiologists, have a word with them about craniosacral. They are the people who go through the scans and see the damage done later. There's a whole range beyond death.

And EVEN if it did work, even in the remote possibility that it did something, would you not want a scan, an xray, something, anything to verify that it was needed... and another scan afterwords to show that it had worked and had not accidentally shoved something into the brain which won't show up for ten years?

Have you any links regarding the radiologists?

Also? Shoving something into his brain?? Have you actually seen this being carried out on an infant? They are barely touching them? Find a YouTube clip or something. There's plenty of them.

We are not talking about contortion and back cracking here.

I'd also love to hear back from anyone who approaches a hospital looking for x rays on a baby for colic.

And back to the Dentist, between three adults in that situation, not one of them thought to bring the baby to the ER with a fever of 103. I question the sanity of each of them.

xzanti

laserlad2010 wrote: »

I have an excellent attitude to parents who come to me with concerns about mainstream health.
.

Can I ask you a genuine question?

As a medical professional, do you believe that birth trauma exists?

laserlad2010

Yes absolutely. It's difficult to get into a nuanced discussion over text because I'll inevitably be misunderstood, but birth trauma exists.

It can be caused naturally or iatrogenically (i.e. by someone else).

I absolutely accept that we (doctors and midwives) cause harm at delivery. I've been in rooms where, with limited obstetric training, I've been acutely aware that things are not being done correctly, and I've resuscitated babies who have suffered as a result and even comforted parents of children who have died.

However, I have also much more frequently resuscitated babies who have attempted to die of their own accord were it not for the timely intervention of my maternity colleagues and myself. I have also, unfortunately, comforted parents whose babies have died despite the best possible care being given to them.

Your question I presume relates to the aftermath of birth trauma. I think it's a complex issue as extensive research has been done into colic and irritability with no clear outcomes.

What I'm trying to explain I suppose is your experience is not repeated in large groups of people who avail of craniosacral therapy. If it worked would it not work for others? Why doesn't it work for others?

How do we measure birth trauma in babies? What are we treating when we go to craniosacral specialists? In your own words, "he barely touched the child" (paraphrased slightly not verbatim) - what then did he do? Why do most other children simply get better with time?

These are questions we ask with no negative intent, but without an answer we can't recommend craniosacral therapy.

xzanti

laserlad2010 wrote: »

Yes absolutely.
.

So why, when parents present with a baby who is clearly inconsolable with pain. Why is birth trauma never mentioned? I had to learn for myself what birth trauma was. I knew my baby wasn't just suffering with wind.

And then we are RIDICULED for trying to find an alternative treatment to comfort our suffering baby. When no other explanation was offered in the GP/Hospital/PHN office.

And, I'd also like to query why, on these threads, do people like to garnish their point with completely irrelevant topics?

So far on this thread I've seen waterbirth, homeopathy, vaccines for christs sake, even botox made an appearance somewhere? Why? They have nothing to do with what we're discussing.

Why do most other children simply get better with time?

Three months is what the PHN told us. This is how long "colic" usually lasts.

Suction cups were used on me when I was born. I had a cone shaped head for a few weeks. I was also a screaming baby. Three months it took for me to adjust. I wasn't waiting three months for my baby to stop being in agony.

Someone else also made a good point earlier in the thread, speaking of which. Forceps and suction cups are fine on a baby's skull, but a little bit of gentle massage is a big 'No No'?

mordeith

laserlad2010 wrote: »

I'm not demanding blind obedience. I'm simply asking you why you feel doctors should be ignored over someone with absolutely zero evidence behind their actions?

I'm not advocating ignoring doctors but if doctors provide absolutely no help whatsoever beyond 'it'll go away in time', and you're a parent with a baby in obvious distress then of course you are going to look into alternatives. In our experience our son slept on the more bruised side of his head for the first time immediately after visiting the cranio therapist. Coincidence . . . possible of course but we were more than happy with it. BTW We haven't been tempted to not vaccinise our children or rear them on a diet of green beans and lentils.

laserlad2010

Ok Xzanti, how many babies presenting with colic have had birth trauma?

How many babies who experience birth trauma present with colic? Are they linked? Nobody has managed to find a link.

Why if birth trauma is a cause of colic, is colic described as usually occurring mostly at night between 3 weeks to 3 months?? No paediatric department diagnoses colic at 1 week of age, which is when you would expect birth trauma pain to occur?

Lets break it down. You're suggesting that the baby has suffered an injury to what, their skull? So it's a bruise? Bruises hurt immediately. They continue to hurt for some time then get better. They tend to hurt most of the time don't they? Or are you suggesting a fracture? Again, fractures hurt immediately don't they?

I have huge sympathy for parents who have to suffer through their child in pain with seemingly little help on offer from mainstream medical professionals, but if craniosacral therapy works, where is the evidence?

I am not for one moment suggesting it's ok to apply forceps or vacuums to babies head but not a gentle massage. I'm suggesting the gentle massage doesn't do anything. And I'm glad you're all vaccinating your children. I'm also pointing out that people who put their faith in craniosacral therapy tend to favour other non-scientific options with regard to their children.

xzanti

Colic does not account for the following, to the best of my knowledge.

Head leaning to one side all the time when lying down
Rigid limbs
Never wanting to be put down to rest - cried himself to sleep before we could put him down
Neck and back arching in pain
Problems latching / head bobbing while feeding
Grunting / sounding congested

All of the above problems went away after treatment in our case.

but if craniosacral therapy works, where is the evidence?

Where's the evidence that it doesn't work?

I've seen it work for myself. I don't need convincing. I was there, you were not.

Where did I say he had bruises or fractures. We're talking about babies being pulled out of the womb, in a way which is un-natural, in a very rushed fashion in our case. Of course it's going to be traumatic for a newborn baby. Joint and muscle pain at the very least would not be outside the realms of possibility surely?

Also, I'd like to state that I am in no way giving out about the doctors who delivered my son. They did a great job. I am very grateful to them.

I just don't understand why parents aren't advised about the possibility of birth pain for the baby. Even as a last resort. It was simply never brought up.

pwurple

xzanti wrote: »

Colic does not account for the following, to the best of my knowledge.

Head leaning to one side all the time when lying down
Rigid limbs
Never wanting to be put down to rest - cried himself to sleep before we could put him down
Neck and back arching in pain
Problems latching / head bobbing while feeding
Grunting / sounding congested

All of the above problems went away after treatment in our case.

Hold on... I thought it was 'colic' earlier.
You said "I'd also love to hear back from anyone who approaches a hospital looking for x rays on a baby for colic."

[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It's either an intervention, or it's not. Which is it? How do you think it works?[/font]
[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I hear two versions of this from people. One is something to do with aura's and clearly falls into complete woo, which is why you're seeing references to aromatherapy and every other thing in that category. If that's what happens, then it's just people being parted from their money under false pretenses, which I don't agree with, ... but off with them.[/font]
[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The other is some theory of skull adjustment, and this is the one that worries me greatly. Because NO-ONE should be doing anything with a babies skull without a clinical reason. Evidence of something gone wrong, a treatment plan, and evidence of success. [/font]

laserlad2010

xzanti wrote: »

Colic does not account for the following, to the best of my knowledge.

Head leaning to one side all the time when lying down
Rigid limbs
Never wanting to be put down to rest - cried himself to sleep before we could put him down
Neck and back arching in pain
Problems latching / head bobbing while feeding
Grunting / sounding congested

All of the above problems went away after treatment in our case.

Grunting/sounding congested - was this a common cold? Infant nasal airways are quite small. Grunting however is a terminal sign of respiratory illness, I think perhaps you were hearing something else if they got better after craniosacral therapy.

Not wanting to lie down/back arching in pain - was this reflux? Was the child started on or trialled on multiple anti acid meds at high doses?

Head leaning to one side, was this persistent? Did you go see a registered, qualified paediatric physiotherapist?

Problems latching - I won't even get into this one as there are so many potential causes. Did you seek out a lactation consultant or experienced midwife?

You'll no doubt take this response as criticism or me belittling you. I'm merely pointing out the approach we would take. I'm glad your child is not irritable any more, I'm merely pointing out that likely time was the main factor.

I've just done a search for evidence on craniosacral therapy and there is none available. Even a study in 1999 in a Journal of Complementary Medicine found no evidence. Oh, and there actually is zero evidence on the internet for craniosacral therapy on infants. None. Any evidence out there is on adults. One study deals with preterm infants but that doesnt apply here and seems to focus on how much they moved afterwards rather than anything else.

We'll just have to agree to disagree as I've now provided evidence to back up my claims. If you continue to offer parents advice that suggests trying out a craniosacral therapist I will also offer advice and evidence that it will most likely not work.

endacl

It's not that it 'won't work'. More accurate to say that 'nothing will happen', because nothing can happen in the absence of a biological mechanism whereby something could happen.

xzanti

pwurple wrote: »

Hold on... I thought it was 'colic' earlier.
You said "I'd also love to hear back from anyone who approaches a hospital looking for x rays on a baby for colic."

Because that's exactly what they'll call it when you present with the baby.

They will never entertain the idea of birth injury, as we've established.

xzanti

laserlad2010 wrote: »

Grunting/sounding congested - was this a common cold? Infant nasal airways are quite small. Grunting however is a terminal sign of respiratory illness, I think perhaps you were hearing something else if they got better after craniosacral therapy.

Not wanting to lie down/back arching in pain - was this reflux? Was the child started on or trialled on multiple anti acid meds at high doses?

Head leaning to one side, was this persistent? Did you go see a registered, qualified paediatric physiotherapist?

Problems latching - I won't even get into this one as there are so many potential causes. Did you seek out a lactation consultant or experienced midwife?

All went away after 2 sessions. Coincidence, like Mordeith, possibly, but I doubt it.

laserlad2010 wrote: »

You'll no doubt take this response as criticism or me belittling you.

Not at all, you're entitled to your opinion.

laserlad2010 wrote: »

I'm merely pointing out that likely time was the main factor.

I saw results within 24 hours of the first visit. That's incredible timing. But ok.

laserlad2010 wrote: »

We'll just have to agree to disagree

Indeed.

mordeith

pwurple wrote: »

[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I hear two versions of this from people. One is something to do with aura's and clearly falls into complete woo, which is why you're seeing references to aromatherapy and every other thing in that category. If that's what happens, then it's just people being parted from their money under false pretenses, which I don't agree with, ... but off with them.[/font]

This I agree with completely

pwurple wrote: »

[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The other is some theory of skull adjustment, and this is the one that worries me greatly. Because NO-ONE should be doing anything with a babies skull without a clinical reason. Evidence of something gone wrong, a treatment plan, and evidence of success. [/font]

The issue here for me is we all know babies skull bones can move to allow passage through the birth canal. In a normal birth this will obviously be achieved by the mother 'pushing' (not sure if there's a more medically appropriate term ). However once forceps / suction are employed then there is a pulling force exerted on the skull which is a human intervention. To say that this could not cause issues for the child is not plausible IMO. As doctors will not address this is any way (again in our experience) then parents should explore alternatives which for us was a cranio osteopath. Not one who espoused any of the other practices you mention in your initial point.

mordeith

xzanti wrote: »

I saw results within 24 hours of the first visit. That's incredible timing. But ok.

Ditto

pwurple

xzanti wrote: »

pwurple wrote: »

Hold on... I thought it was 'colic' earlier.
You said "I'd also love to hear back from anyone who approaches a hospital looking for x rays on a baby for colic."

Because that's exactly what they'll call it when you present with the baby.

They will never entertain the idea of birth injury, as we've established.

Can you answer my question? 
What do you think they do to fix it?

pwurple

The issue here for me is we all know babies skull bones can move to allow passage through the birth canal. In a normal birth this will obviously be achieved by the mother 'pushing' (not sure if there's a more medically appropriate term ). However once forceps / suction are employed then there is a pulling force exerted on the skull which is a human intervention. To say that this could not cause issues for the child is not plausible IMO. As doctors will not address this is any way (again in our experience) then parents should explore alternatives which for us was a cranio osteopath. Not one who espoused any of the other practices you mention in your initial point.

Ok, so let's assume it's a medical procedure. Did they explain how it works with a diagram, like you get when you're going for surgery or other treatment? Did they explain how do they know what part of the skull to put pressure on without any kind of scan? Were possible side effects listed? Was there written consent? There are all the normal things I expect at a minimum from a medical procedure. Did any of those happen?

mordeith

pwurple wrote: »

Ok, so let's assume it's a medical procedure. Did they explain how it works with a diagram, like you get when you're going for surgery or other treatment? Did they explain how do they know what part of the skull to put pressure on without any kind of scan? Were possible side effects listed? Was there written consent? There are all the normal things I expect at a minimum from a medical procedure. Did any of those happen?

I never said it was a medical procedure in those terms. I'm not sure what it has to do with the effectiveness of the treatment. FWIW I had a tooth pulled recently and there was no written consent or diagrams or side effects discussed.

xzanti

pwurple wrote: »

Can you answer my question? 
What do you think they do to fix it?

Lets see what the google says:

Top result:

Cranial osteopaths use a highly developed sense of touch to feel subtle changes of tension and tissue quality in the living anatomy of the whole body, and to diagnose areas of strain or dysfunction. ... Cranial osteopathy is a gentle, safe and effective approach to treatment of a wide range of problems in the whole body.

Babies and Children
Cranial Osteopathy a very gentle, safe and effective form of treatment for babies and children.  There is no more than the weight of a 20 cent coin applied to an area at one time.  It works on complicated strain patterns in bone, joints, ligament, faschia, muscle nerves and organs to find their position of ease and waits for them to release themselves rather than applying force.   In the North Middlesex and Barnet Hospitals in London, the Osteopathic Centre for Children provides osteopathy for premature infants in the Neonatal Units at the request of medical staff and patients. 
 
There is a small amount of movement that exists in the infant skull to permit the baby's head to adapt to the forces of labour. The infants head may not fully recover from the distortion of a forceps or suction delivery, a caesarean section, a slow labour or simply a natural birth.  This may cause compression of any one of the cranial nerves or the central nervous system itself. There are 12 cranial nerves responsible for vital functions in the body such as digestion, peristalsis (muscle contraction in the gut), smell, taste, sucking, chewing, vision and balance.

Those crazy hippies.

Also, I'd echo what Mordeith said.. it's not a medical procedure. It's alternative.

laserlad2010

xzanti wrote: »

Where's the evidence that it doesn't work?

I've seen it work for myself. I don't need convincing. I was there, you were not.

Where did I say he had bruises or fractures. We're talking about babies being pulled out of the womb, in a way which is un-natural, in a very rushed fashion in our case. Of course it's going to be traumatic for a newborn baby. Joint and muscle pain at the very least would not be outside the realms of possibility surely?

Also, I'd like to state that I am in no way giving out about the doctors who delivered my son. They did a great job. I am very grateful to them.

I just don't understand why parents aren't advised about the possibility of birth pain for the baby. Even as a last resort. It was simply never brought up.

Almost snuck the edit past me eh :rolleyes:

I have just provided you with an article, written by an "alternative practitioner" which shows that craniosacral therapy does not work. What part of that is confusing?

I'm asking you that if trauma occured, was your baby inconsolable from the very beginning? Was your baby in pain from day 1, when the injury occurred? I asked you what you think happened to your baby? What was explained to you in the craniosacral centre?

If you start recommending that other parents use this craniosacral therapist, you need to be able to robustly defend the practice. What if a baby suffers harm as a result of your recommendation? What will your defense be?

Based on your answers and on scientific evidence I have to recommend that parents understand clearly that craniosacral therapy does not work. Until a craniosacral therapist can show the scientific world how and why things get better after they intervene, its no better than homeopathy.

What the craniosacral therapists allegedly do is not compatible with any disease process. It's not a massage, so it cant be relieving muscle pain, because as was pointed out it's only 20c coin weight of pressure. It's not spine realignment because that's frankly negligent. Until this is all clear, again, I have to recommend that parents avoid this treatment route.

xzanti

laserlad2010 wrote: »

Almost snuck the edit past me eh :rolleyes:

What??

laserlad2010 wrote: »

I have just provided you with an article, written by an "alternative practitioner" which shows that craniosacral therapy does not work. What part of that is confusing?:

Your link doesn't work for a start. But if I want to discredit pretty much anything, I'm sure I can find a negative article and link it.

laserlad2010 wrote: »

I'm asking you that if trauma occured, was your baby inconsolable from the very beginning? Was your baby in pain from day 1, when the injury occurred? I asked you what you think happened to your baby? What was explained to you in the craniosacral centre?

He slept a lot in the Hospital. As soon as we took him home the crying started. Practitioner told me He had pain in the base of his neck and his hip was strained. There were also other issues which were contributing to the feeding problems. Not the exact terminology she used, but that was the jist of it. It was 6 years ago.

laserlad2010 wrote: »

If you start recommending that other parents use this craniosacral therapist, you need to be able to robustly defend the practice. What if a baby suffers harm as a result of your recommendation? What will your defense be?

I can robustly state that it WORKED for us

laserlad2010 wrote: »

I have to recommend that parents understand clearly that craniosacral therapy does not work.

Yes, we've established that you're not having any of it.

xzanti

I've done a bit of digging and so far I can find 2 infant deaths linked to cranial osteopathy.

The first is the infamous Dentist case. The second was a case in the Netherlands where a three month old sadly passed away due to malpractice.

If anyone can find anymore cases, please let me know as I am genuinely interested.

Compare that to the number of infant and child deaths resulting from negligence in mainstream medicine.

Poopoo that all you want.

pwurple

xzanti wrote: »

Lets see what the google says:

I asked what YOU thought, not what you can google.... but I get it now. You don't know what it is.

Also, I'd echo what Mordeith said.. it's not a medical procedure. It's alternative.

Actually, mordeith said the opposite. It's either woo, alternative, in there wih aromatherapy etc, or it's medical. Mordeith chose medical, not alternative. But has flipped back again now when questioned.


I don't have much more to add, you've covered it.

pwurple

xzanti wrote: »

I've done a bit of digging and so far I can find 2 infant deaths linked to cranial osteopathy.

The first is the infamous Dentist case. The second was a case in the Netherlands where a three month old sadly passed away due to malpractice.

If anyone can find anymore cases, please let me know as I am genuinely interested.

Compare that to the number of infant and child deaths resulting from negligence in mainstream medicine.

Poopoo that all you want.

I'll bite. Malpractice is exactly the reason I quiz any doctor up and down about anything they are doing. I never put my faith in anyone. I want to know what they are doing, why they are doing it, and the evidence for it.

It does not compute that you can volunteer for an intervention on your own baby without that.

mordeith

pwurple wrote: »

I



Actually, mordeith said the opposite. It's either woo, alternative, in there wih aromatherapy etc, or it's medical. Mordeith chose medical, not alternative. But has flipped back again now when questioned.
.

Please don't paraphrase me. I said it wasn't medical in the terms you outlined i.e written consent, explanation of side effects etc. Are you saying my dental work isn't medical either because the majority of your criteria werent applied there either?

mordeith

pwurple wrote: »

It does not compute that you can volunteer for an intervention on your own baby without that.

Where's your evidence that medical interventions during birth don't cause problems?

xzanti

pwurple wrote: »

I asked what YOU thought, not what you can google.... but I get it now. You don't know what it is.

Where did I say that I knew exactly how it worked? If I knew that, I'd be practicing it myself.

pwurple

mordeith wrote: »

pwurple wrote: »

I



Actually, mordeith said the opposite. It's either woo, alternative, in there wih aromatherapy etc, or it's medical. Mordeith chose medical, not alternative. But has flipped back again now when questioned.
.

Please don't paraphrase me. I said it wasn't medical in the terms you outlined i.e written consent, explanation of side effects etc. Are you saying my dental work isn't medical either because the majority of your criteria werent applied there either?

Listen, if your dentist is going around just whipping out your teeth without telling you what s/he's about to do, why s/he is doing it, without any evidence whatsoever that it's needed, no explanation of what to expect, no aftercare etc etc... then hell yes, absolutely, I'd say you have really poor judgement in dentists also.